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Before The Next Event - Split Queues


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#61 maxdest

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:19 AM

View PostDarklightCA, on 07 June 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:


No. There aren't enough groups to support a grouped queue

/snip.


Maybe you are not understanding my terminology when I state the system is throttled.

Basically when there is enough population that games are triggering fast (mostly during events like tuk3 or maybe occasionally on prime time in weekend) then the matchmaker takes 60 secs longer to try and match large groups against each other and fills any gaps with smaller groups or solos. If at the end of that extra minute there is no other large group, the matchmaker acts as today and the large group plays randoms.

On the other hand, when population is low the matchmaker turns off, and the queue is exactly like today.

What this means is that when population supports it that groups will play more groups and pugs more pugs. I even suggested enhanced rewards for groups vs groups to discourage synch dropping. It really is a win win situation for pug and groups.

Edited by maxdest, 08 June 2017 - 10:21 AM.


#62 TWIAFU

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 11:40 AM

View Postmaxdest, on 08 June 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

Maybe you are not understanding my terminology when I state the system is throttled.

Basically when there is enough population that games are triggering fast (mostly during events like tuk3 or maybe occasionally on prime time in weekend) then the matchmaker takes 60 secs longer to try and match large groups against each other and fills any gaps with smaller groups or solos. If at the end of that extra minute there is no other large group, the matchmaker acts as today and the large group plays randoms.

On the other hand, when population is low the matchmaker turns off, and the queue is exactly like today.

What this means is that when population supports it that groups will play more groups and pugs more pugs. I even suggested enhanced rewards for groups vs groups to discourage synch dropping. It really is a win win situation for pug and groups.


So, maybe kind like if there is a 12man premade they enter a queue and are placed against another 12man premade first.

If no other 12man premade is there to fight, they face a 12 man made up of smaller groups, maybe solo fillers.

If no other 12man, made of small groups, is there, then face solo as a very last resort.

The smaller group team can be bumped so the 12man pre faces another premade.

#63 Scyther

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 02:19 PM

That sort of 'filtered' approach (trying to match groups against the most appropriately sized groups available) would certainly beat no matchmaking at all. It's hard to imagine why PGI wouldn't already by matching in that fashion, except, well, PGI.

#64 Commander A9

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 02:44 PM

Why should we split cues? Because organized teams beat pugs whenever pugs meet up with them? Because someone cried for a matchmaker? Because someone lost too many times?

Come on. We go through this every event.

Last night, my team fought pugs, then an organized team, then half pugs-half organized team. We won every match.

Honestly, I think FW is doing just fine as it is matching up players to play the game. The problem at hand that we're all in agreement with I think is that both sides's pugs and unaffiliated players are not up to par with the major teams.

Addressing 12 random unorganized pugs, they never will be.

PGI can't fix it. PGI won't fix it. Because it doesn't need to be fixed from a game mechanics level.

It is purely a question of personal pilot skill.

And the only way THAT gets corrected is if a pilot has the willingness to learn to improve his or her game. Until they do, you got what you got. An artificial "barrier" to a big team massacring an all-pug force is never ever going to come. Even if it does, the pugs will find a way to circumvent it when they can't find a match, and big teams will find a way to sync-drop so that the massacring will continue.

In all games, you have spawn camping, rushes, the butchering of randoms. It comes with the territory. It's moreso enabled here by idiots using LRMs from their spawn point to shell their opposition and those hideous walls which make spawn points a death trap.

Edited by Commander A9, 08 June 2017 - 03:04 PM.


#65 maxdest

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 03:46 PM

View PostTWIAFU, on 08 June 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:


So, maybe kind like if there is a 12man premade they enter a queue and are placed against another 12man premade first.

If no other 12man premade is there to fight, they face a 12 man made up of smaller groups, maybe solo fillers.

If no other 12man, made of small groups, is there, then face solo as a very last resort.

The smaller group team can be bumped so the 12man pre faces another premade.



Yup, that's the gist.

I will update the main post to clarify.

#66 Commander A9

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 04:21 PM

Isn't that how it works already? 12-man groups go to the front of the line?

#67 KingCobra

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 04:52 PM

So, maybe kind like if there is a 12man premade they enter a queue and are placed against another 12man premade first.

If no other 12man premade is there to fight, they face a 12 man made up of smaller groups, maybe solo fillers.

If no other 12man, made of small groups, is there, then face solo as a very last resort.

The smaller group team can be bumped so the 12man pre faces another premade.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's the way it works now so its a fail for anyone wishing to play FP but groups.

Go ahead hit that fight button if your not in a group and go take a nap.

Edited by KingCobra, 08 June 2017 - 04:52 PM.


#68 maxdest

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 10:43 AM

View PostCommander A9, on 08 June 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Isn't that how it works already? 12-man groups go to the front of the line?


In low pop times my understanding is the effect is similar.

My understanding is that it works as follows:
  • Game builds up 12 on one side to start a lobby in the quickest way possible. This might be all solos, a mix of groups and solos or a 12 man.
  • As this is the quickest way possible:
    • if a 12 man joins the queue then they automatically start a lobby ahead of any players (solo or smaller groups) already in the queue, but behind any full formed groups already in lobby waiting for an opponent.
    • If a smaller group joins and then they are added to the other players waiting in queue to form a lobby, and if any combination of these makes 12 (favouring longest queuing first) then they are formed into a lobby (note this may result in solo players being 'bumped' by groups and waiting longer)
  • Once a lobby is formed on one side, it then looks if a lobby is formed on the other side (whatever makeup) and then starts a match against them.
What this means is that in an environment with low pop on both sides (i.e. not enough player imbalance to start building lobbies waiting for oponents) then large groups will tend to drop against each other as they are not sitting as unformed groups for long. If there is an imbalance in pop on one side, you will see a mix of drops / alternating drops, and at high pop times (like events) groups will only play other groups occasionally, as even PUG are forming full groups fast.




The throttled queue would essentially kick in at the last stage during highpop times to try and match like-build groups against each other with a minimum change to wait times. At low pop times the queus would be much as is.

The hope would be more quality matches for all = more fun = more player retention and higher pop = even better matchmaking on non event days = even more fun = even more players = more development of FP mode.

Edited by maxdest, 09 June 2017 - 10:52 AM.


#69 Scyther

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:06 PM

Switching to something like a split queue is typically the 'quick and dirty' approach to dealing with a computation problem of this sort.

If you are going for single-queue, but 'better quality' matches, the design of the problem shifts. You have to come up with a 'weighting' formula for making a 'better match', and you have to add in a factor for building up a 'stock' of mechs in the queue while not making their wait times too long.

(If you match everything as soon as a 12 mechs on each side are available, you basically end up with no MM.)

As an example, every mech entering the queue has a default 'weight' of 100. When mechs form a group for a group drop, you add a weight factor. Say +25 (per mech) for a group of 2-3, +50 for a group of 4-5, +75 for a 6-8 man, +100 for 9-12.

Any tier 5 mech gets -30, tier 4 -15, tier 3 stays same, tier 2 gets +20 per mech, tier 1 +40.

The weight of a group is the sum of its' individual mech weights

You then allow a stock of say 70 mechs to build up in the queue. The appropriate number would depend on the typical population, and could vary by current population/avg wait time, thus incorporating some of the 'throttling' concept from the thread.

Now you start matching, by trying to make fairly close 'weights' on each side. However, to incorporate 'time spent waiting' in the queue, you pull a little trick. For each 5 seconds spent waiting in the queue, you add 3 to the 'weight' of the solos and small (size 2-3 groups) in queue. You subtract 3 (per mech) from the groups of size 6 and up. Size 4-5 groups gain +1.

You sort the queue list by 'average weight in this group' and try to match from the top (heaviest) down.

The net result is that small groups and solos basically only have enough 'weight' to be matched against other small groups and solos. Over time however, the longer they are in the queue the more likely they are to fill a drop against a larger group or a group with higher tiers in it.

Groups with more high tier players (tier 1 being 'highest') are more likely to be matched against other higher tier groups, or a mix of smaller groups that have higher tier players. Smaller groups with lower tier players are more likely to be matched with smaller groups.

The system adapts continuously to match wait times, as within 2 minutes even low tier/solos/small groups will have +72 added per mech, making them equivalent to a newly dropping 8-man. (Values may need some tweaking based on population.)

If needed, you can add in a weight factor for 'mechs not in a group, but from the same unit', 'mechs not in a group but from the same faction', and even a fudge factor based on previous matches won/lost. (To deal with various split-up, or sync dropping, or 'we often play together but are dropping solo' tricks)

In effect this functions somewhat like the 'Battle Value' system from TT, where better/stronger values are more likely to get matched in 'fair fights' and lower tier/smaller values are more likely to get matched against less dangerous opposition.

The primary 'player input' needed for a system like this would be, how much longer are you willing to wait for a 'well balanced' match vs the 'throw any 24 into the meat-grinder' that we currently have? 2 minutes? 3? 5?

Edited by MadBadger, 09 June 2017 - 12:39 PM.


#70 naterist

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:15 PM

if there arent enough groups to even have a grouped que running, then why should they have priority for this mode?

#71 maxdest

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:32 PM

View PostMadBadger, on 09 June 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

/snip


I agree a weighting formula would be even better.

However population even in an event may not be enough for something complex (seeing as quick play doesn't even balance tiers most of the time)

Biggest bang for buck is probably a simple group matching , as although this is not going to be always fair at least it:
  • Removes the bad tatse of a 12 man unit spawn camping a PUG
  • Allows the 12 man (or larger groups) to have some competition rather than just skittles matches 9/10 times in events.
If it works then you can look at adding more complex matchmaking.

#72 Scyther

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:32 PM

@Naterist:
Groups don't have 'priority', per se, in the algorithm I gave. They have a weight. Weight is affected by group size, by player tier, by time in the queue. 'Priority' as such becomes 'whose combination of these three factors gives them the highest average per-mech weight?'

It could be a solo tier 2 player who has waited 2.5 minutes, it could be a 3-man composed of tier 1's who've waited 1 minute, it could be a freshly-added 10-man composed of several tiers.

The solution is more about making the most fair matches possible, while not separating anybody, or removing anyone's choices or options, and making maximum use of all the population available at any time. 'Unbalanced' matches will still occur since the 'add weight over time' function means nobody will be 'left out' for more than a couple minutes. But they will be less common.

More importantly, it means groups and better players will be more likely to get matched against similar groups and player tiers.

@Maxdest:
While the text description looks complex, I can assure you that computer-resources wise that is a very simple and very fast algorithm with well-known sorting and matching tools.

Edited by MadBadger, 09 June 2017 - 12:42 PM.


#73 TWIAFU

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 01:20 PM

View PostCommander A9, on 08 June 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Isn't that how it works already? 12-man groups go to the front of the line?



Yes, that is exactly how it works.

;)

Interesting, don't you think?

Edited by TWIAFU, 09 June 2017 - 01:24 PM.


#74 Tavious Grimm

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 07:48 PM

Seriously.... ANOTHER thread devoted to splitting the queues!? Like the first one currently at 17 pages isn't long enough? Agree to disagree folks. PGI won't do a damned thing until Civil War and we all know it. So sit back enjoy the current event and realize Russ and Co are more worried about Mechwarrior 5 then MWO.





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