86 replies to this topic

[Ajantise]

Because PGI does not know or want to balance IS and Clan (Why? I don't care anymore), why not give us IS only random battles so we can bridge the time to the civil war?

I want to play, but now the game for me is just not playable.
In this state, the game for IS only players is just not fair.
Almost double the weapons, indestructible side torso, longer range, smaller number of slots....
For IS only player its just like playing on "very hard" with a penalty of 65%.

I think that IS only random drops would be very popular now, and bring a lot of the players back.

[vibrant]

I want random stock mech quickplay, where you select a weight class and get dumped in an entirely random stock mech from in that range. I think neither of us will get what we want. ^^

[Logan812]

While I'm a staunch believer that pre-FedCom Civil War IS mechs and Clan mechs/tech should NOT be balanced (it defeats the purpose to do so,) I agree that IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan queues would be a good idea assuming there would be enough players to make it worthwhile.

Also, as vibrant said, a stock-only mode would be awesome too.

[Ced Riggs]

No. Why segregate players based on your personal preferences? Even the last Tuk-Tuk event showed that the balance is relatively close (~5% difference) and IS is tankier for where clams are more damage. With all due respect, if you feel like IS mechs are in general plain worse than clan mechs, you might be part of the equation leading to that result.

[Logan812]

Ced Riggs, on 28 May 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

No. Why segregate players based on your personal preferences? Even the last Tuk-Tuk event showed that the balance is relatively close (~5% difference) and IS is tankier for where clams are more damage. With all due respect, if you feel like IS mechs are in general plain worse than clan mechs, you might be part of the equation leading to that result.

That's why I would want it to be optional. Of course, forcing segregated matchmaking on players would just a be a load of BS as you suggested.

Also, Clan mechs ARE superior to pre-FedCom Civil War mechs overall - that was the whole point of the Clan Invasion both in the lore and the gameplay in Battletech across the board (no pun intended.) However, the way MWO should interpret/balance it is a different debate altogether.

Edited by Logan812, 28 May 2017 - 03:48 AM.

[Ajantise]

Ced Riggs, on 28 May 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

No. Why segregate players based on your personal preferences? Even the last Tuk-Tuk event showed that the balance is relatively close (~5% difference) and IS is tankier for where clams are more damage. With all due respect, if you feel like IS mechs are in general plain worse than clan mechs, you might be part of the equation leading to that result.

I have a friend who plays Clan mechs and i convinced him to try IS.
It was hilarious. While with Clan mechs he can easily get up to 1000 dmg, with IS he could not get 300. And after about 50 games and 5 different mechs he quit IS for good. For anybody who is fair it is obvious.

Tuk-Tuk statistics. LOL. In a moment that everybody is saying CLAN is OP, they give us Statistics as news. To much a coincidence. Who believes that?

As far as my skill goes, i can get by pretty good. Best result is 10 kills.
But that does not change the fact that Clan is overwhelmingly OP now.

IS only Random would be good thing, and even has merit in lore.

Its the only way IS pilots would get a fair game. And in my case only way i would again play the game.

[Ced Riggs]

Ajantise, on 28 May 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

I have a friend who plays Clan mechs and i convinced him to try IS. It was hilarious. While with Clan mechs he can easily get up to 1000 dmg, with IS he could not get 300. And after about 50 games and 5 different mechs he quit IS for good. For anybody who is fair it is obvious.

It's obvious that your anecdote has no merit if any debate about Clan vs. IS is supposed to be fair. The issue is complex, and it's entrenched, and emotionally charged, because people take sides like this is a presidential election. Your friend's inability to git gud is meaningless. I could easily counter it with "I do fine in IS mechs", or "I made it up pretty high on the Javelin leaderboard", giving us an entirely pointless 1vs1 anecdote count. Dismissed.

Ajantise, on 28 May 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

Tuk-Tuk statistics. LOL. In a moment that everybody is saying CLAN is OP, they give us Statistics as news. To much a coincidence. Who believes that?

... and this is the point where I refer to the prior. If you are not interested in a fair and objective discussion and pull prepper-tier tinfoilö theories out of your pocket, then, indeed, jet fuel can't melt the steel beams of your denial.

Ajantise, on 28 May 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

IS only Random would be good thing, and even has merit in lore.
Its the only way IS pilots would get a fair game. And in my case only way i would again play the game.

IS only would mean that there's Clan Only as well. As a result, both factions don't get to play less. That'd be a ridiculously bad move.

You are proposing the faction-equivalent of a "Men's only" game mode, alienating half of the population in this election. Out of 18000 active players, about 9000(+/- 250 or so) play on each side. Are you seriously telling the other half they can no longer play with you, because you feel slighted?

[El Bandito]

Ced Riggs, on 28 May 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

No. Why segregate players based on your personal preferences? Even the last Tuk-Tuk event showed that the balance is relatively close (~5% difference) and IS is tankier for where clams are more damage. With all due respect, if you feel like IS mechs are in general plain worse than clan mechs, you might be part of the equation leading to that result.

Except math had proven that in equal tonnage, Clan mechs were tankier than IS mechs, even when counting IS durability quirks, in Tuk 3. IS only appeared to be tankier due to extra tonnage.

El Bandito, on 19 May 2017 - 03:18 AM, said:

Just run a simple math, OP. IS has 25 tons advantage over Clans--IS 265: Clan 240. Average damage required to kill IS mechs vs. Clan mechs--IS 369: Clan 351.

IS damage taken before death ratio compared to Clan is 369 / 351 = 1.05:1

IS tonnage to Clan tonnage ratio is 265 / 240= 1.1:1 (not even including IS durability quirks, which can offer several tons of durability benefits, per mech)

What does this mean? The math clearly shows that IS mechs actually die FASTER than Clan mechs if they were even tonned, and this is did not even factor in the additional "ghost tonnage" durability quirks provide. So yeah, Clan tech is still superior, and Clan/IS XL still need to be balanced.

With the new skill tree, and without new tech, only few variants feel as competitive as Clan mechs, most notably BLR-2C.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2017 - 04:43 AM.

[Valhallan]

Also as mentioned so many times already, those tuk stats also reflect SCOUTING, which is more "fair" for IS compared to invasion.

[James The Fox Dixon]

I would love to see IS vs. IS and stock mechs only options. I would make it a choice by having a person select in the quick play launcher what type of game they want to play. This way everyone is happy.

[Ajantise]

I understand Clan pilots. They are used to playing with OP mechs. If they did not have canon fodder that is now IS, how will they play?

I am just asking for an option to play a balanced game. Check box with IS, CLAN and Mix games.
So everybody can decide what to play. Not be forced to play an unbalanced game.

Edited by Ajantise, 28 May 2017 - 04:58 AM.

[Marius Evander]

Mechs are balaced at the better mechs / weapons combo level.
IS has more bad mechs and bad builds and bad players,

Civil war is just going to add more ways to build a mech badly. I forsee I.S. mechs with most hardpoints having 1 of each civil war weapon.

And as far as IS random battles????? Its been being promised since last mech con, PGI is working on it but they are a small company with tiny income compared to many game developers, skill tree, new weps, new balance pass, new maps all more important/ taking up time. Your IS vs IS clan vs clan event in Soon.tm

Edited by Cadoazreal, 28 May 2017 - 05:40 AM.

[sycocys]

Hmmm, got both my Ace of Spades and Deathstar in IS mechs.

Neither of them broke 1k damage.

Damage done isn't really a metric of a good mech - its usually a metric of bad play, that is for some reason highly compensated in c-bills.

-
Would like more mode options, just that I wouldn't promote them on the platform of balance.

[MischiefSC]

It was about a 10% spread in Tuk.

Clans are a bit better, but not much. With good players on both sides in good mechs it's closer to balanced than we've ever had. CXL is still a huge advantage and LFE won't change that. However PGI has stated they are not going to fix that, ever. So... dunno. PGI has refused to fix IS/Clan balance for years and years. Part if that is that bad players in Clan mechs would rage because they have no interest in a balances game, part of it seems to be just not understanding game balance.

[Yellonet]

I've asked for this as well. I don't think I'd ever play against clanners if I could choose not to.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

With the very small win difference between IS and Clan in the Tuk3 event and the massive boost to the utility of structure and armor quirks that many IS mechs have IS mechs are looking to be superior to Clan mechs at the given time in general, at least comparing mechs built to do similar things against each other. The IS meta will shift towards the tanky mechs such as the Wolfhound, Crab, Hunchback 4SP, Dragon, Roughneck, Battlemaster 2C, and even the Zeus-5S with its +30 CT structure and 20 ST structure.

IS Tanking is further amplified in their STD engine based builds that forgo trying to compete with Clans in speed and instead focus on boosting what they are built to boost: their defense. STD engine builds can survive more damage than the Clans can even put out before overheating, allowing IS mechs to advance on them without fear if they just charge in instead of attempting to sit at mid range and trade against Clan mechs that are built to dominate mid range but fall off at long and close range.

If you are going for extreme range builds then IS offers many mechs that can bring 4-6 ERLL and out trade Clan mechs due to the lower durations and ability to fire more weapons at once before triggering ghost heat, For example, 3 IS ERLL is 27 damage compared to the 22 damage of 2 CERLL, the IS ERLL also does this damage 20% faster than the Clan one before skill tree or quirks are taken into account. Many IS mechs also have 10% duration quirks and should be used for extended range trading, Dragon-1C is one with 10% range and duration quirks, that can bring an STD engine and 4 ERLL with adequate cooling.


Maybe I'm just saying that you should buy more Dragon-1Cs, but my point here is that the IS has many very good mechs that can beat the pants off Clan chassis with ease. IS also has some absolutely terrible mechs and variants that should never be bought, so its all dependent on what you buy.

Its pretty easy to build a dropdeck of 1 Battlemaster 2C and 3 Dragon 1Cs, or bring 2 Battlemaster 2Cs, 1 Dragon 1C, and one Wolfhound-2 or 1A depending on if you want heat gen or duration quirks for a very solid mid range large pulse laser focus deck. You could also swap them to be ERLL builds or bring further specialized mechs for that purpose.


Basically IS makes you take time to research different mechs and buy the right variants for the right job, but if you do then you will be far superior to a Clan mech. Clan mechs are generally pretty general purpose and can be swapped around to be built for any task but will perform it sub optimally. Clan mechs also tend to spew out higher amounts of damage but spread their damage more. For example, IS PPC vs Clan ERPPC 500 damage with IS PPC is equal to 750 damage with CERPPC due to the splash damage. IS gets you higher kill counts, Clan gets you higher damage counts.

[Ajantise]

Dakota1000, on 28 May 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

IS Tanking is further amplified in their STD engine based builds that forgo trying to compete with Clans in speed and instead focus on boosting what they are built to boost: their defense. STD engine builds can survive more damage than the Clans can even put out before overheating, allowing IS mechs to advance on them without fear if they just charge in instead of attempting to sit at mid range and trade against Clan mechs that are built to dominate mid range but fall off at long and close range.

If you are going for extreme range builds then IS offers many mechs that can bring 4-6 ERLL and out trade Clan mechs due to the lower durations and ability to fire more weapons at once before triggering ghost heat, For example, 3 IS ERLL is 27 damage compared to the 22 damage of 2 CERLL, the IS ERLL also does this damage 20% faster than the Clan one before skill tree or quirks are taken into account. Many IS mechs also have 10% duration quirks and should be used for extended range trading, Dragon-1C is one with 10% range and duration quirks, that can bring an STD engine and 4 ERLL with adequate cooling.

What really happens is that Clan has higher side torso armor on the same tonnage, and then IS has to put the STD to have a chance, but with this you have half the weapons (Alpha is the game) ...so game over for IS, and Clan has to cool down for 2 seconds.

[B0oN]

OP, try this ...

http://metamechs.com...es/skill-trees/

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Ajantise, on 28 May 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

What really happens is that Clan has higher side torso armor on the same tonnage, and then IS has to put the STD to have a chance, but with this you have half the weapons (Alpha is the game) ...so game over for IS, and Clan has to cool down for 2 seconds.

But Clans don't have higher side torso armor than IS on the same tonnage, its actually the opposite, as IS has structure and armor quirks on many variants leading to higher armor on the side torsos.

The only reason some people say Clans are tankier is because you don't die until you lose both of the side torsos with a Clan XL engine, so a Clan mech and an IS mech running an XL engine, the easiest way to kill the clanner is CT and for IS its ST, so the Clanner has more minimum damage required to kill it though the IS mech has higher potential damage required to kill it, meaning the IS mechs have a higher skill floor and ceiling.


Also the whole "You have to have half the weapons if you bring STD engine" is a myth. In general you can still bring an STD engine and have more than half the firepower of an XL engine build. Just use weapons that are tonnage efficient on their damage or DPS. STD engine laser boats are an IS specialty, the Crab, Black Knight, that one Roughneck, the Dragon 1C with 3 LPL or 4 ERLL, the Top Dog boating ML and LPL are all examples.

You can have speed, firepower, and tanking with an STD engine, its up to people to find the right builds for it.

[Monkey Lover]

Is V IS in cw was great they need to bring this back.