164 replies to this topic

[PFC Carsten]

Pat Kell, on 03 June 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

That's the second time you have said this and refused to give any back up statements. Neither myself nor any other person or unit is responsible for or led to the low population numbers we allegedly see in CW currently. People deciding to quit is what led to the low participation rate. Saying anything else is merely anecdotal or completely lacking of any evidence whatsoever. So you are correct, no more comment is needed because nothing you can say would be capable of proving that myself or any other player or unit is responsible for what is happening in CW. It would just be full of anecdotal evidence and gut feelings. Which are necessarily wrong by default, but certainly aren't capable of proving what you are asserting, which is that my mindset is what has caused our current situation.

Thank you for reinforcing what I just said and proving that you are not capable or willing to see beyond the narrow scope you have chosen for yourself. Maybe a little hint: Ask yourself, why people might have chosen to leave. And try to be honest with yourself. You don't even have to admit it here in public, just deep down within yourself. Which probably all that's ever possible for you to do, since you already acquitted all possible evidence that is not supporting your default mindset.


Whole proof that's needed is a look at the current state of Faction Play/CW. "[color=#959595]It is ok to farm lower skilled teams if those teams sign up to play in a mode that was designed to not have a matchmaker and pit you against whoever shows up at your doorstep. [/color]"

Have fun clubbing seals and telling yourself that's ok, since... well, the seals did show up on the banks.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 03 June 2017 - 09:07 AM.

[MischiefSC]

PFC Carsten, on 03 June 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

Great example of the mindset leading to Faction Play to the place where it is today. No more comment needed.

The points he brought up? Yeah, absolutely. They are a big factor in why FW is in the state it's in.

A MM wouldn't change anything. At this point, as worlds are irrelevant, I have no issue with the concept. However it would work like it does in group queue.

You can pug in FW. You can do it and do fine. You just need to play to the same standard as when you're in a group. Why should someone put in a fraction of the effort but win the same?

[Monkey Lover]

Jaybles, on 03 June 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

Can you explain how the matchmaker will function?


Because I don't see it changing much of anything. Let's say there are 9 top flight FW teams. Let's also say that 3 are NA time zone, 3 are EU, and 3 are oceanic. We'll call them tier 1 teams. These 9 teams will crush anyone outside of their tier 1 bracket. So It is NA prime time and the 3 NA teams are dropping. The match maker keeps pairing 2 of the 3 teams. Leaving the 3rd team to either wait in queue for 30 minutes(now you are back to stupid long wait times) for another top team to queue up or get paired with seals and club away.

A long time ago groups used to be limited to 4 or 12. 4 man groups could drop into the public QP queue with solos. 12 mans dropped into the 12 man queue. The 12 man queue was very sparsely populated(So much so that you could reliable sync drop for marik civil war etc.), You fought whoever was there. FW functions much the same way. You fight whoever is queued up.

The only way a matchmaker works is if you make the entire game mode solo only, which completely defeats the purpose of FW.

There has been dozens of ideas on how to make a basic match maker for cw.

Here are a few.
Match by units + no more than a set number of solo people example 4.
Match units with units first then if no units are playing match solo.
Match players teams within a skill rating.


Playing like there is no way to balance lower skills is funny because just a few weeks from now they will be doing just this in the 8v8 comp mode.

[Monkey Lover]

Pat Kell, on 03 June 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

That is just flat out wrong, in every single comment you made. I am not a very good solo player and when I drop in CW and decide to go off on my own and see how I can fair in some random 1v1 duels, I often get beat. Yet when I stick with my team and we work together, we win almost all the time. Your statement that a unit doesn't turn people into winning machines is just flat out wrong and our unit as well as many others proves it. Granted, just because you put 12 people together with the same tags doesn't mean you will win all the time, you actually have to put in a little work of moving together and supporting each other but it's not different than if you did this with 12 randoms. If 12 randoms got together and worked as a team, they would be a winning machine. The problem isn't the individual players on a team are bad, it's that they are selfish, unwilling to work with the team and are too focused on their own personal performance. They would rather do 2K plus damage than share their armor or move up with the team and support a push etc etc.

It is ok to farm lower skilled teams if those teams sign up to play in a mode that was designed to not have a matchmaker and pit you against whoever shows up at your doorstep. What are we supposed to do, charge the enemy backwards? eject our first wave? (we have done that before btw and were praised by some for doing it and called elitist jerks by others). No, you drop in CW, you take the risk of playing against some very good, well coordinated teams.

There are lots of reasons for not putting a matchmaker in CW, you just chose to ignore all of those reasons. Too low of population, difficult to code (possibly, I have no idea really, just heard it said around a few times), lack of resources from PGI and pitting people against whoever you come up against is part of the excitement for me. I love fighting good teams and honestly, if there was a MM in CW, it's possible that I would never get to fight them because they may be in a higher tier than I am. You are free to argue any of these points you like but saying that "there is 100% no reason it shouldn't" is demonstrably wrong.

Ahh another "it's ok to farm low skill teams because they showed up".

No one shows up to get steam rolled if the solo or low skill house teams knew they were going to have to fight a div a team they would go play somewhere else. They try cw with the hopes they can get a balanced fun game.

As the hope of balanced fun games goes away so is the population.

Keep having fun seal clubbing because it's not going to last.

[Kubernetes]

The worst part of FW is the stupefyingly low skill level of average pugs and their obstinate refusal to improve themselves. WayTooSexy is a bit of a prodigy with regard to how quickly he got good, but that doesn't excuse people who have been playing for years. I'm tired of hearing people say they don't use gauss/ERPPCs/ACs/whatever because "I'm not good with them." Well no kidding, you'll never get good with them if you never try. Instead of practicing they'll whine about tech imbalance or bad maps or premades. Ridiculous. A year ago I was by far the worst Light pilot in my unit; hundreds of drops later I think I've gotten pretty good. Don't live in denial about your weaknesses, fix them.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

I'm not saying a match maker won't work, I'm saying it won't change anything. For the same reason tier 1s get dropped with 4/5 in solo queue. Population. In practical application a match maker will not stop groups from smashing pugs. It might lessen the frequency during peak hours, or and event, but during most other times it won't have a noticeable effect except to increase wait times while the match maker searches before the restrictions are loosened.

And for those who remember, there was a match maker in place when 4 mans could drop in the pug queue and pugs complained even then about 4mans stomping them. As long as pugs and groups of any size are paired, pugs will complain.

[Monkey Lover]

Jaybles, on 03 June 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

I'm not saying a match maker won't work, I'm saying it won't change anything. For the same reason tier 1s get dropped with 4/5 in solo queue. Population. In practical application a match maker will not stop groups from smashing pugs. It might lessen the frequency during peak hours, or and event, but during most other times it won't have a noticeable effect except to increase wait times while the match maker searches before the restrictions are loosened.

And for those who remember, there was a match maker in place when 4 mans could drop in the pug queue and pugs complained even then about 4mans stomping them. As long as pugs and groups of any size are paired, pugs will complain.

The population is bad because people don't want to get smashed. Heck I almost never drop solo because of this but during events I have dropped solo because I knew the odds were much higher to get a "good" balanced match. You would see an increase pop if everyone didn't have to join a tier 1-2 unit just to get a balanced match.

I been in lots of cw games where our team was matched with another team just so we could roll them. There was no reason for this.



Side note tier 1 players will never play with tier 4-5 players per Russ. People say this but I have yet to see any proof. I have done lots of sync drops and I know for sure I never dropped with our lower tier unit players.

[MischiefSC]

Monkey Lover, on 03 June 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Ahh another "it's ok to farm low skill teams because they showed up".

No one shows up to get steam rolled if the solo or low skill house teams knew they were going to have to fight a div a team they would go play somewhere else. They try cw with the hopes they can get a balanced fun game.

As the hope of balanced fun games goes away so is the population.

Keep having fun seal clubbing because it's not going to last.

When it happens in group queue it's okay though, right? Totally different. Because reaspawns means when you get rolled it's 4 times in a row.

There are no div a teams in FW by the way. The hyperbole on this topic is pretty silly.

There's no more deal clubbing in FW than in pug or group queue. The good team of 12 beats the bad team of 12. What is different in FW is reaspawns - so when your team is the bad team you lose 4 times back to back to back. It's not directly about units or premade - stomps happen in pug queue plenty and group queue way more often.

[Monkey Lover]

MischiefSC, on 03 June 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

When it happens in group queue it's okay though, right? Totally different. Because reaspawns means when you get rolled it's 4 times in a row.

There are no div a teams in FW by the way. The hyperbole on this topic is pretty silly.

There's no more deal clubbing in FW than in pug or group queue. The good team of 12 beats the bad team of 12. What is different in FW is reaspawns - so when your team is the bad team you lose 4 times back to back to back. It's not directly about units or premade - stomps happen in pug queue plenty and group queue way more often.

Group Q has a balance system. So it's really not a good comparison.

You could do the same thing in cw but it hurts low level mix group teams. This is why I feel a match maker would be better.

People keep saying it's the solo people who don't want to get better but really it's about skill. I been on tons of house teams where everyone worked as a team and you still have the new people and just bad people with low scores.

Lot of people just want to seal club as it makes them feel like a rock star. I been on these teams and seen it a lot. Others just have the crazy idea if you try hard it will all work out.

But really to have a game mode it has to be able to take people of all skill levels or it will fail.

Again telling people to "gitgud" and "join a unit" will not fix this mode.

[Jumping Gigolo]

what's wrong with seal clubbing? can someone convince me please.... i just can't understand why it seems to be a taboo to club 'em baby seals

[MischiefSC]

Monkey Lover, on 03 June 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

Group Q has a balance system. So it's really not a good comparison.

You could do the same thing in cw but it hurts low level mix group teams. This is why I feel a match maker would be better.

People keep saying it's the solo people who don't want to get better but really it's about skill. I been on tons of house teams where everyone worked as a team and you still have the new people and just bad people with low scores.

Lot of people just want to seal club as it makes them feel like a rock star. I been on these teams and seen it a lot. Others just have the crazy idea if you try hard it will all work out.

But really to have a game mode it has to be able to take people of all skill levels or it will fail.

Again telling people to "gitgud" and "join a unit" will not fix this mode.

Having played with almost every decent sized unit in the game I've never played with a team that just wants to club seals for kicks. That's another absolute line of BS that comes up a lot. There certainly are bads in units - at least they're trying to coordinate though.

You do bring that up as a good point though. So matchmaker or pug/premade split happens and.... still exact same stomps. Who do we blame then?

Get better at the game and play as a team in a team 12 v 12 game isn't some magic panacea - it's just the obvious observation of what works.

It's like telling someone who lives in their mom's basement to get a job and move out on their own if they want more personal freedom. The current environment here is that it's the fault of everyone who got jobs and moved out on their own for making the standards to high for everyone else and that's not fair.

[Monkey Lover]

MischiefSC, on 03 June 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

Having played with almost every decent sized unit in the game I've never played with a team that just wants to club seals for kicks. That's another absolute line of BS that comes up a lot. There certainly are bads in units - at least they're trying to coordinate though.

You do bring that up as a good point though. So matchmaker or pug/premade split happens and.... still exact same stomps. Who do we blame then?

Get better at the game and play as a team in a team 12 v 12 game isn't some magic panacea - it's just the obvious observation of what works.

It's like telling someone who lives in their mom's basement to get a job and move out on their own if they want more personal freedom. The current environment here is that it's the fault of everyone who got jobs and moved out on their own for making the standards to high for everyone else and that's not fair.

Nothing is perfect and I wouldn't ask for a system to try to be. This is why I have always asked for a basic match maker. Something is way better than nothing.


As for the parents basement in this example to relate to our game.

We have 90% of the people in this parents basement and 10% not. You're going to have to deal with the people in the basement. You can keep telling them to get out but it's been 2 years and has yet to work.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 03 June 2017 - 11:02 AM.

[B0oN]

Monkey Lover, on 03 June 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

Tier 1 player was only making 500 dmg in cw running solo? Haha

This sounds like another gitgud CW is fine propaganda post

Good luck populating a mode where only the top players can win.

Exactly that is what people like WayTooSexy, Palfatreos, PatKell, MischiefSC, I_AM_ZUUL,my small self and loads of other good players want to say to all the people out there trying FP :
"Come in, we´ve got tons of XP you can easily learn off, no matter what your affiliation, playstyle or availability of time is.
We made the investment in time and effort, so all YOU gotta do is seek us out, fire your questions and have some good times dropping together . "

This PSA was brought to you by your Shortbus .
Believe it, or not (at your OWN PERIL), we´ve got the carebear attitude, because it´s still Mechwarrior, g´dang it

[Monkey Lover]

The Shortbus, on 03 June 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

Exactly that is what people like WayTooSexy, Palfatreos, PatKell, MischiefSC, I_AM_ZUUL,my small self and loads of other good players want to say to all the people out there trying FP :
"Come in, we´ve got tons of XP you can easily learn off, no matter what your affiliation, playstyle or availability of time is.
We made the investment in time and effort, so all YOU gotta do is seek us out, fire your questions and have some good times dropping together . "

This PSA was brought to you by your Shortbus .
Believe it, or not (at your OWN PERIL), we´ve got the carebear attitude, because it´s still Mechwarrior, g´dang it

Again I will say this will not fix the mode. If the game was so simple everyone e would be a tier 1 top players. Even unit to unit fights could use balancing just as they're doing in the 8v8 mode. It's just I focus more on the solo players with the hopes of increasing the playing population. With any luck we can get away from 1 bucket:)

Edited by Monkey Lover, 03 June 2017 - 11:27 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Monkey Lover, on 03 June 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

Nothing is perfect and I wouldn't ask for a system to try to be. This is why I have always asked for a basic match maker. Something is way better than nothing.


As for the parents basement in this example to relate to our game.

We have 90% of the people in this parents basement and 10% not. You're going to have to deal with the people in the basement. You can keep telling them to get out but it's been 2 years and has yet to work.

So the problem then is the 10% are being unreasonable?

The problem is that originally it was more like 75% non-basement dwellers but there wasn't the depth of purpose to keep them so they left. The solution is not to just say ********** to the last 10% and focus on basement dwellers with a product always focused on the already have a job and their own place crowd. Its to look at how you get that original group back. There's already QP for tge moms basement crowd.

[Kaoba]

Here i am on siege phase of the tug of war waiting for about 20 min for a game, BUT hey lets split the modes and get 30+ waiting times, at least solo players will get the derp pug vs pug they want ( only way they actually do some dmg is facing total clueless potatoes)

[MischiefSC]

Monkey Lover, on 03 June 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Again I will say this will not fix the mode. If the game was so simple everyone e would be a tier 1 top players. Even unit to unit fights could use balancing just as they're doing in the 8v8 mode. It's just I focus more on the solo players with the hopes of increasing the playing population. With any luck we can get away from 1 bucket:)

More solo players isn't increasing the population. It's not growing the game. Letting you play mix-tech in FW would likely grow the population as well, IS or Clan in your drop deck, would make matchmaking as easy as QP. Then it's not really FW though, is it?

[Monkey Lover]

MischiefSC, on 03 June 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

So the problem then is the 10% are being unreasonable?

The problem is that originally it was more like 75% non-basement dwellers but there wasn't the depth of purpose to keep them so they left. The solution is not to just say ********** to the last 10% and focus on basement dwellers with a product always focused on the already have a job and their own place crowd. Its to look at how you get that original group back. There's already QP for tge moms basement crowd.

Lol how is the 10% getting hurt at all? They keep saying they don't want to kill the 90%. Truth is they want to seal club. I see it here posted all the time. They should be fighting the hardest to keep these noobs away but they don't because they want to farm.

Match maker would give everyone , everything they want if what they say is true

[Monkey Lover]

MischiefSC, on 03 June 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

More solo players isn't increasing the population. It's not growing the game. Letting you play mix-tech in FW would likely grow the population as well, IS or Clan in your drop deck, would make matchmaking as easy as QP. Then it's not really FW though, is it?

Fw died long ago there is almost nothing left. You might as well mix tech as it doesn't even matter anymore.

Solo player are not all trash. Normal unit players would play solo if hey could during the times when a team isn't running. This doesn't happen now because they're not stupid.

[Monkey Lover]

WayTooSexy, on 03 June 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

Here i am on siege phase of the tug of war waiting for about 20 min for a game, BUT hey lets split the modes and get 30+ waiting times, at least solo players will get the derp pug vs pug they want ( only way they actually do some dmg is facing total clueless potatoes)

I don't think k anyone asked for split q here. That's the other thread.
I don't support split q as it makes it hard for units to get new people. I do 100% support limiting the number of solo players on one team.