40 replies to this topic

[Natred]

Can not nerf skill good players will always come out on top no matter what mech they pilot.

[R Valentine]

No, you can't, but you can't nerf hardpoints either. Mechs with bad hardpoints will always be bad. No amount of quirks will suddenly make them good. Likewise, no amount of nerfs will ever make a mech with amazing hardpoints balanced. It will always be amazing. That is the way PGI designed the game.

[Scyther]

Teamwork>Skill>Mech>Tech. Which isn't the same thing as saying tech isn't important.

[Palfatreos]

LRM > evrything else

[Almond Brown]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

No, you can't, but you can't nerf hardpoints either. Mechs with bad hardpoints will always be bad. No amount of quirks will suddenly make them good. Likewise, no amount of nerfs will ever make a mech with amazing hardpoints balanced. It will always be amazing. That is the way PGI designed the game.

What makes for "bad hard points"? Not enough of them? Not high enough on the Chassis? A mix of ALL weapon types?

With literally 100's of chassis how does PGI make them ALL balanced? If you META/MINMAX of course some will be better than others, but if you just PLAY the game, that opens up many more possibilities. So are you Playing or Meta'ing?

[R Valentine]

Almond Brown, on 30 May 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

What makes for "bad hard points"? Not enough of them? Not high enough on the Chassis? A mix of ALL weapon types?

With literally 100's of chassis how does PGI make them ALL balanced? If you META/MINMAX of course some will be better than others, but if you just PLAY the game, that opens up many more possibilities. So are you Playing or Meta'ing?

Bad hardpoints are the ones mounted too low. You can not fix low hardpoints. You can't shoot up high enough with them. You can't shoot over cover. You have to expose your entire mech. You can't hill hump. They are physically inferior to higher mounted hardpoints. That's why mechs like the Kodiak and the Hunchback IIC will always be meta. Having hardpoints at cockpit level and a cockpit at the very top of the mech means you expose the absolutely minimum necessary while at the same time bringing all of your weapons to bear. Try that with an Orion, and when was the last time you saw one of those? Or a Victor, with arms below its waist. PGI designed the game so that hard point locations would determine a mech's viability. You can't un-ring that bell. It can't be unmade. That's just the way it is. Number of hardpoints can play a factor too, but if your mech is heavy enough then you just run really, really big guns and don't care that you only have a few. The key is that you have hardpoints high enough that you can expose just a fraction of your mech while getting 100% firepower involved.

[Almond Brown]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 May 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Bad hardpoints are the ones mounted too low. You can not fix low hardpoints. You can't shoot up high enough with them. You can't shoot over cover. You have to expose your entire mech. You can't hill hump. They are physically inferior to higher mounted hardpoints. That's why mechs like the Kodiak and the Hunchback IIC will always be meta. Having hardpoints at cockpit level and a cockpit at the very top of the mech means you expose the absolutely minimum necessary while at the same time bringing all of your weapons to bear. Try that with an Orion, and when was the last time you saw one of those? Or a Victor, with arms below its waist. PGI designed the game so that hard point locations would determine a mech's viability. You can't un-ring that bell. It can't be unmade. That's just the way it is. Number of hardpoints can play a factor too, but if your mech is heavy enough then you just run really, really big guns and don't care that you only have a few. The key is that you have hardpoints high enough that you can expose just a fraction of your mech while getting 100% firepower involved.

So how then do you account for (example) the TimberWolf what with its low slung arms. Is the TW a BAD Mech?

P.S. PGI designed the Mechs based on the BattleTech design that have existed for >40 years. How would you re-design all the BattleTech Mechs so none have "bad" hard points?

[R Valentine]

Almond Brown, on 30 May 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

So how then do you account for (example) the TimberWolf what with its low slung arms. Is the TW a BAD Mech?

P.S. PGI designed the Mechs based on the BattleTech design that have existed for >40 years. How would you re-design all the BattleTech Mechs so none have "bad" hard points?

The TimberWolf has shoulder guns right next to the cockpit, and A shoulder pod with 3 high mounted energy points that are actually above the cockpit, and the cockpit pit itself is lower than on most mechs, so even though you have to expose a bit more to get all guns involved, they're still more or less at cockpit level. If you can see something, you can hit it. Move over to the Mad Dog, with even lower slung arms and a {LT-MOB-25} pit at the very tippy-top of the mech, and you have to pull your entire body out into the open to get those arms involved. You end up shooting hill sides more often than you shoot the enemy, because the cockpit level and gun level are so vastly different. Better yet, move over to the Roughneck 3A with guns around your ears, and there's no hill that will ever block your fire as long as you have LOS. If you can see over that hill, you can shoot over it.

Edited by Kiran Yagami, 30 May 2017 - 09:01 AM.

[Natred]

Yesterday, a Steiner pilot who literally only pilots inner sphere mechs told me the blackjack sucks and is trash.. so to prove a point two matches in a row did 700 damage in it with an xl 200 i believe two ac2s and two large lasers. To me this proves just how biased, near sighted and judgemental some "mechwarrior" pilots are.

Nothing against this guy because he is a good guy, good sence of humor although he is set in his ways and i respect that. I just see people go into situations with blinders on instead of open mind. Point is dont be stuck, adapt change make stuff work for you.

Edited by Natred, 30 May 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Natred, on 30 May 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

Point is dont be stuck, adapt change make stuff work for you.

Which is great and all, but no amount of adapting makes IS tech (specifically equipment) as good as Clan.

You can admit that, it's ok

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 30 May 2017 - 09:19 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 May 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Which is great and all, but no amount of adapting makes IS tech (specifically equipment) as good as Clan.

Thankfully, IS tech is either diagonally equivalent, or backed by sturdier chassis, or outranges and outtrades clan tech. That's what buddy up there tried to point out when he said something about people unwilling to approach things with an open mind. They are stuck in their ways, "Clans OP", and bemoan that IS mechs are inherently worse, despite IS mechs having a slew of advantages and weapon systems the Clans wish they had. It's an eternal struggle.

"Paper is OP. Scissors are fine." - Rock

[Jay Leon Hart]

Ced Riggs, on 30 May 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Thankfully, IS tech is either diagonally equivalent, or backed by sturdier chassis, or outranges and outtrades clan tech. That's what buddy up there tried to point out when he said something about people unwilling to approach things with an open mind. They are stuck in their ways, "Clans OP", and bemoan that IS mechs are inherently worse, despite IS mechs having a slew of advantages and weapon systems the Clans wish they had. It's an eternal struggle.

"Paper is OP. Scissors are fine." - Rock

Which, again, is fine. You can admit, however, that some advantages can't be overcome. I can't make IS Endo or Ferro take less slots. I can't make my AC10s smaller and/or lighter to fit more on a chassis. I can't make my XL take up less slots and not kill me as easily. I can't make my BAP and ECM smaller and lighter. I can't get free CASE.

Different but balanced is good. Different but better is not. More things are better on Clan side than are better on IS side.

I play both sides 'mechs, but I play Clan ones more because they are unequivocally better overall.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 30 May 2017 - 09:52 AM.

[Natred]

Clan small pulse equivalent is the inner sphere medium. Clan medium pulse x2 is the inner sphere large. Jay lion heart im not going to admit that because its not true. Innershere mechs have ways to keep up with clans and pass them in many areas. Just have to know how to adapt to their strengths same as clan mechs.

To prove my point anyone who wants to one vs one me on their favorite "op" clan mech, i challenge them in an innersphere equivalent.

[Dogstar]

@OP So you're saying that a skilled player in a stock vindicator can beat an average player in a meta Marauder IIC?

Seems unlikely

[Natred]

Im going to smash your maurder iic in my battlemaster care to try me?

Edited by Natred, 30 May 2017 - 09:59 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Natred, on 30 May 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

Clan small pulse equivalent is the inner sphere medium. Clan medium pulse x2 is the inner sphere large. Jay lion heart im not going to admit that because its not true. Innershere mechs have ways to keep up with clans and pass them in many areas. Just have to know how to adapt to their strengths same as clan mechs.

To prove my point anyone who wants to one vs one me on their favorite "op" clan mech, i challenge them in an innersphere equivalent.

Hatred, Clan ER Medium is the Inner Sphere Large.
405 range, 7 damage, 6 heat, 1.15s burn, 3s cooldown, 1 ton, 1 slot
vs
450 range. 9 damage, 7 heat, 1s burn, 3.25s cooldown, 5 tons, 2 slots

1v1 is pointless, if your point of "Skill > Mech > Tech" is supposed to be accurate. I am an average pilot, but I do better in Clan 'mechs than I do in IS.

[Natred]

Honestly now i may get a vindicator and a zues for lolz. I have been enjoying the rifileman with 2 uac 5s and 4 mediums. Thing is super fun to drive. The jagermech with 4 ac 5s is legit too. I bought the wrong one for that build may have to buy the other one to better carry that build. Innersphere ballistics rock except for the guass rifile. I lile the clan guass better but other than that nope. The inner sphere normal ppc is a beast too. Hardly see anyone abusing that gun with its low heat face time weapon. Honestly perfect weapon with an xl. Anyways.. this has been fun. Challenge me if you dare. win or loss still fun and i enjoy challenges.

Edited by Natred, 30 May 2017 - 10:16 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Natred, on 30 May 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

Honestly now i may get a vindicator and a zues for lolz. Honesty i have been enjoying the rifileman with 2 uac 5s and 4 mediums. Thing is super fun to drive. The jagermech with 4 ac 5s is legit too. Inneraphere ballistics rock except for the guass rifile. I lile the clan guass better but other than that nope. The inner sphere normal ppc is a beast too.

I love any Zeus with the ASRM18 DOOMFIST, shame the Hero doesn't have that otherwise I would have bought it. MASC looks fun, but no DOOMFIST kills it for me. Oddly, the Rifleman ended up being my most played IS Heavy. 2x AC10, 4x ML is kinda fun, too. I find the regular PPCs work best with a few backup MLs or SPLs, just in case something gets a little too close. I think my RFL-5D is running 2x PPCs with chest MLs, either that or 4x LLs. I'm really looking forward to the Snub-Nose PPC, just so I don't have to worry about that min range deadzone.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Good mechs and builds are a force multiplier to skill.

Someone with 0 skill using even the best mech is just multiplying by 0 and left with nothing, someone who's the most skilled ever running the worst mech might just be brought down to average. Someone who's the best ever riding in the best mech ever with the best builds is the guy who'd deathstar each game if the rest of his team wasn't getting a couple kills.

[Natred]

Yeah the rifleman right now is my favorite innersphere mech. Just feels really nice and with the high mounts to shoot over mediums and lights. Thunderbolts and grasshoppers are also very effective. Large pulse builds to strong lol. Pheonix hawks are little monsters too really let pilot skill and repositioning shine.