71 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

You know, I still can't help but feel Survival is completely worthless

Unless you have initial quirks, the amounts you receive are completely marginal
On the heavier end, especially

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 June 2017 - 06:28 PM.

[Commodore Perspicuous]

Mcgral18, on 01 June 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

You know, I still can't help but feel Survival is completely worthless

Unless you have initial quirks, the amounts you receive are completely marginal
On the heavier end, especially

I have to strongly disagree. Since skill tree launch I have been focusing on Survival (though not usually as much as OP) and I have had many mechs limp through the end of matches when they should have died long before. Particularly with some of my XL mediums. It makes a huge difference when those glancing laser shots or machine guns should have busted your side torso.

Edited by Commodore Perspicuous, 01 June 2017 - 08:57 PM.

[Joey Tankblaster]

Armor doesn't kill.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joey Tankblaster, on 01 June 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Armor doesn't kill.

Dead pepole don't kill either.

[Commodore Perspicuous]

Joey Tankblaster, on 01 June 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Armor doesn't kill.

Armor doesn't kill, but mechs carrying lots of armor do.

[Joey Tankblaster]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 June 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

Dead pepole don't kill either.

Commodore Perspicuous, on 02 June 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

Armor doesn't kill, but mechs carrying lots of armor do.

I am happy to test this hypothesis facing your shutdowned mech.

[Commodore Perspicuous]

Joey Tankblaster, on 02 June 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

I am happy to test this hypothesis facing your shutdowned mech.

You assume that I don't spec for heat, too?

[Chill Bill]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 June 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

Dead pepole don't kill either.

But dried frog pills will wreak havoc, Mustrum!!!
-Bursar

Aha! I have liberated Leonard of Quirm to do your bidding!
-Havelock Vetinari

Edited by Chill Bill, 02 June 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[Arugela]

Here's something simple but interesting:

https://tarogato-mwo...4c-adfdf14ded09

The only part of the survival tree you can get maxed without other stuff is the Skeletal skill if combined with AMS and crit reduction.. This I assume is because the tree is designed for the new civil war stuff which will have a lot more new missiles. This then allows choosing armor values and shock absorbers amounts virtually at will. You can even reduce skeletal and crit chance a little to balance it to your mech.

This means the skeletal skill are the backbone of the tree! ;d Just like the mech. Inside to outside. And the rest can be picked at will.

https://tarogato-mwo...4c-736cdc46bad6

The same can be done on the Operations tree. you can get improved gyros, quick ignition, and heat containment without getting the other skill entirely.

Edited by Arugela, 03 June 2017 - 03:49 PM.

[ProfessorD]

EDIT: @Taro: I find your lack of Heat Containment ... fascinating. I've been getting all 5 on nearly all of my heat-generating builds, most commonly like so, and recommending the same in my unit.

My main consideration here is how fast I can make my 2nd and 3rd alpha strikes on a laser boat (which I'm running a whole lot of right now). On a lot of laser boat builds, I believe full Heat Containment does allow faster 2nd and 3rd alpha strikes. My current expectation is that I'll pretty much always be back behind cover by the time I've alpha'ed 3 times in a laser boat.

So, I don't think I'm changing this yet, but I'll be watching it more closely. I think the principle of your argument on this makes sense on paper, but I don't think it accounts for the pacing of real matches.

Tarogatos Alt, on 31 May 2017 - 03:41 PM, said:

Coolshots are overpowered. Abuse them. Everything else in this tree is secondary.

...

Double and buffed strikes is stupid. Might as well abuse it. If you don't care about throwing C-Bills away and just want to win, this is a no-brainer.

Preach, and fire air strikes while you do it. Rain on the nonbelievers!


We disagree very strongly on seismic sensor, radar deprivation, and speed tweak, Taro. I've been getting all 3 on nearly every mech so far. It would be fascinating to poll the top ~1000 players on recent leaderboards and see what fraction of them are making use of each of these on, say, at least half of their mechs.

If I compare that with the advice you're giving, I think the main difference is that I have a lot of mechs that have 0 points in either Survival or Weapons. I have very few mechs right now that have significant points in both. Nearly all of the mechs that I've given any Survival points already have armor or structure quirks.

(EDIT: Nothing in this post was directed at Arugela in any way.)

Edited by ProfessorD, 06 June 2017 - 01:02 PM.

[J0anna]

Very good guide, and a point of view that I've been coming around to with time. First off, the value a person places on a node depends on the build and the intended purpose of the mech.

First off, you must decide on the amount of mobility and heat removal you need/want. These are almost universal.

Next up is sensors, in a group setting, seismic and radar derp lose importance because of communication and coordination, in a solo setting, they gain importance since you can't rely on others.

Lastly, in a group setting, survival seems less important due to focus fire. If you're called primary, the extra armor/structure won't help you, you must break LOS or will be killed very quickly. Firepower on the other hand, helps put enemies down quickly, therefore becomes more valuable. On the other hand, in the solo que, survival helps significantly due to lack of focus fire and the greater likely hood solo engagements.

So for a mech I tend to use in the solo que, I have found survival far more valuable. Put another way, it's about the same number of SP to get a heavy mech to gain ~ 15% armor and 30% structure, as it is to get ALL the cooldown nodes, so unless the mech has significant innate cooldown bonuses, your firepower increase will be less than your survival increase.

This I something I've used for a long time, solo play mechs are set up differently than group play mechs.

[Arugela]

ProfessorD, on 04 June 2017 - 06:28 PM, said:

I find your lack of Heat Containment ... fascinating. I've been getting all 5 on nearly all of my heat-generating builds, most commonly like so, and recommending the same in my unit.

My main consideration here is how fast I can make my 2nd and 3rd alpha strikes on a laser boat (which I'm running a whole lot of right now). On a lot of laser boat builds, I believe full Heat Containment does allow faster 2nd and 3rd alpha strikes. My current expectation is that I'll pretty much always be back behind cover by the time I've alpha'ed 3 times in a laser boat.

So, I don't think I'm changing this yet, but I'll be watching it more closely. I think the principle of your argument on this makes sense on paper, but I don't think it accounts for the pacing of real matches.




Preach, and fire air strikes while you do it. Rain on the nonbelievers!


We disagree very strongly on seismic sensor, radar deprivation, and speed tweak, Taro. I've been getting all 3 on nearly every mech so far. It would be fascinating to poll the top ~1000 players on recent leaderboards and see what fraction of them are making use of each of these on, say, at least half of their mechs.

If I compare that with the advice you're giving, I think the main difference is that I have a lot of mechs that have 0 points in either Survival or Weapons. I have very few mechs right now that have significant points in both. Nearly all of the mechs that I've given any Survival points already have armor or structure quirks.

Are you responding to me or the OP. If it's to me I'm not suggesting mech setups. I'm just pointing things out about the nature of the tree itself.

And I think the use of each tree depends on each exact mech setup. I have dirwolf builds I wouldn't use surival on because it would take away from it's abilities. Other ones might benefit more. It depends on the mech and layout. They all have uses.. There is nothing you should always get.\

BTW, has anyone run into situations where armor hardening was useful for getting extra tonnage? It should increase the armor gain from endo if you drop the armor values back to pre buffed values.

Edited by Arugela, 05 June 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[Khobai]

OP is wrong about maxing survivability. He's basing everything off total hitpoints. But total hitpoints isnt at all indicative of how survivable your mech is. All that matters is CT hitpoints. Or ST hitpoints if you have an XL. Or leg hitpoints if youre a light.

33 points in survivability is definitely not worth it. Requires putting too many points in skill nodes that arnt worth points.

[CtrlAltWheee]

This was a ton of work. Much appreciated.

Khobai, on 08 June 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

OP is wrong about maxing survivability. He's basing everything off total hitpoints. But total hitpoints isnt at all indicative of how survivable your mech is. All that matters is CT hitpoints. Or ST hitpoints if you have an XL. Or leg hitpoints if youre a light.

33 points in survivability is definitely not worth it. Requires putting too many points in skill nodes that arnt worth points.

That's how I feel, but maybe it's stylistic. I value the agility tree above defense unless there are structure/armor quirks that are too good not to invest in.

[Gwahlur]

Solid guide here, though I don't agree with all of it.

Speccing fully into survival on a non-quirked 95 tonner gives you what, 7 points more of forward armor in the CT? Not that big of a difference. Overall, I've only been speccing into survival according to baseline quirks (mech has armor quirks? Go for (almost) full armor spec. Structure quirks? Skeletal spec. No quirks? Spend points elsewhere).

I've mostly been skipping the operations tree, except for spending 5 points to get 2 advanced gyros nodes (EXTREMELY important imo), a heat containment node and a cool run node (go right). I feel I get better return for my points by going full heat gen, and then spend the rest of the points elsewhere.

I always get full speed tweak (going right for acc/dec), on mechs like the griffin which took a big hit to agility from the engine decoupling I also take the rest of the tree.

If a mech has jj's I spend 3 points on the jj tree (top and two down on the left).

For sensors, I pick up the two first radar derp nodes on the left (I'll probably spec away from this as the dust settles after skill tree patch). If lrm's, I get some target decay.

For most mechs I just spend 1 point on consumables (for uav and coolshot), if I feel like trolling I spend 5 points to max strikes and bring 2 arty strikes.

Edited by Gwahlur, 09 June 2017 - 04:53 AM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 08 June 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

OP is wrong about maxing survivability. He's basing everything off total hitpoints. But total hitpoints isnt at all indicative of how survivable your mech is. All that matters is CT hitpoints. Or ST hitpoints if you have an XL. Or leg hitpoints if youre a light.

33 points in survivability is definitely not worth it. Requires putting too many points in skill nodes that arnt worth points.

The survivability tree is based on percents. So it doesn't matter if you are talking about CT hitpoints, ST hitpoints, legs, or total hitpoints. You'll get the same proportional bonus on all. You can take my chart and genericise it by removing the vertical axis labels - it wouldn't change the proportions.

Now, strictly speaking, you get the biggest flat bonus on your CT, because it's already the healthiest component, and again... everything is percent-based.

Gwahlur, on 09 June 2017 - 04:51 AM, said:

Solid guide here, though I don't agree with all of it.

Speccing fully into survival on a non-quirked 95 tonner gives you what, 7 points more of forward armor in the CT? Not that big of a difference.

Actually you get 13.2 armour on the CT and 15.6 structure. So approximately 29 extra hitpoints. That's a lot more than 7.

I'm not sure where you got 7. If you had 56 rear armour, then you would get a +7 armour on your front CT. I doubt you put 45% of your armour on your rear.

[Tarogato]

Onimusha shin, on 01 June 2017 - 01:48 AM, said:

Yup, pretty much agreed on that. I covered it in my own guide (shameless plug) here where I ranked the Cool Run as a lower tier skill compared to the Heat Containment.

Cool run really only affects a high DHS 'Mech like say the 4erPPC/LPL WHK, or the 5LPL BLR/BNC. Math below based on no skills unlocked. In fact, 3-5% reduction of heat generated is practically nothing.

4erPPC WHK w 28DHS
+14.00 heat per second
-4.70 heat per second (33.5% efficiency)
-5.17 heat per second (36.9% efficiency, w maxed Cool Run), -0.47 heat/sec makes only 3.3% difference to the heat generated.
77.0 heat cap
88.6 heat cap with max Heat Contain only, effectively 1 more alpha (with no Ghost Heat of course)

4LPL WHK w 28dhs
+9.15 heat per second
-4.70 heat per second (33.5% efficiency)
-5.17 heat per second (36.9% efficiency, w maxed Cool Run), -0.47 heat/sec makes only 5.1% difference to the heat generated.
77.0 heat cap
88.6 heat cap with max Heat Contain only, effectively 1-2 more alphas (with no Ghost Heat of course)

5LPL BLR w 17DHS
+8.93 heat per second
-3.05 heat per second (34.2% efficiency)
-3.36 heat per second (37.6% efficiency, w maxed Cool Run), -0.31 heat/sec makes only 3.4% difference to the heat generated.
60.5 heat cap
69.6 heat cap with max Heat Contain only, effectively 1-2 more alphas (with no Ghost Heat of course)

5LPL BNC w 17DHS
+8.93 heat per second
-3.05 heat per second (34.2% efficiency)
-3.36 heat per second (37.6% efficiency, w maxed Cool Run), -0.31 heat/sec makes only 3.4% difference to the heat generated.
60.5 heat cap
69.6 heat cap with max Heat Contain only, effectively 1 more alpha (with no Ghost Heat of course)

ProfessorD, on 04 June 2017 - 06:28 PM, said:

EDIT: @Taro: I find your lack of Heat Containment ... fascinating. I've been getting all 5 on nearly all of my heat-generating builds, most commonly like so, and recommending the same in my unit.

My main consideration here is how fast I can make my 2nd and 3rd alpha strikes on a laser boat (which I'm running a whole lot of right now). On a lot of laser boat builds, I believe full Heat Containment does allow faster 2nd and 3rd alpha strikes. My current expectation is that I'll pretty much always be back behind cover by the time I've alpha'ed 3 times in a laser boat.

So, I don't think I'm changing this yet, but I'll be watching it more closely. I think the principle of your argument on this makes sense on paper, but I don't think it accounts for the pacing of real matches.

Okay, so I've been ignoring these comments and avoiding reading Onimusha's maths until I do my own, so that my conclusion is arrived independently.

My conclusion is (very generally): Cool Run is a better investment than Heat Containment IF: you are engaged with the enemy for at least ~30 seconds. I've added details in my OP at the top of this thread, so you can see the reasoning up there.

Now that I've looked at Oni's approach, his error is relying on "consecutive alphas until heatcap" as a measuring stick. In a real game, you rarely fire alphas consecutively, there's usually some time to cool in between shots, where you're waiting for the next clear opportunity to shoot the component/mech you want. OR, you're committed to a full engagement. And when you're committed, then you're commited - you'll probably be fighting for longer than 30 seconds. Oni's method seems to cease measuring once you've reached heatcap, which often happens rather early. My method looks at available heat as a function of time.

Edited by Tarogato, 10 June 2017 - 02:36 PM.

[Palfatreos]

How you (and Onimusha shin) calculate total heat cap confuses me as far i understand you using this formula : (30 + (trudubs+poordubs) * 1.5) *(1+%heat node)

- trudubs = *2 not *1,5 you can test test against a mech withh 10 trudubs and one with 5 trudubs 5 poordubs your heat % will be high on the latter one.
- heat node works only on the base 30 heat cap not on the heatsink despite what pgi statement.

Source : http://steamcommunit...searchtext=heat
although the values are outdated the formules still accurate. (testing the formula on forest wit erppc and calculating the heat %)

[Khobai]

Quote

The survivability tree is based on percents. So it doesn't matter if you are talking about CT hitpoints, ST hitpoints, legs, or total hitpoints. You'll get the same proportional bonus on all.

wrong. adding extra armor to legs doesnt make your mech tougher if you die to CT damage.

so looking at the total armor of a mech is completely misleading. all that really matters is how much CT armor it gains. because most likely you will die to your CT being destroyed.

[Tarogato]

Palfatreos, on 10 June 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

How you (and Onimusha shin) calculate total heat cap confuses me as far i understand you using this formula : (30 + (trudubs+poordubs) * 1.5) *(1+%heat node)

- trudubs = *2 not *1,5 you can test test against a mech withh 10 trudubs and one with 5 trudubs 5 poordubs your heat % will be high on the latter one.

Source : http://steamcommunit...searchtext=heat
although the values are outdated the formules still accurate. (testing the formula on forest wit erppc and calculating the heat %)

I'm not sure where you are getting different heat capacity for PoorDubs and TruDubs. They only have one single heat capacity (heatbase) value in the game files:


<ModuleList>
<Module id="3000" name="HeatSink_MkI" CType="CHeatSinkStats" faction="Clan,InnerSphere">"]
<ModuleStats slots="1" tons="1" health="10" />
<Loc nameTag="@HeatSink_MkI" descTag="@HeatSink_MkI_desc" iconTag="StoreIconsHeatSink_MkI.dds" />
<HeatSinkStats cooling="0.12" engineCooling="0.12" heatbase="-1.2" />
<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_a" />"]
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed" />
</Module>
<Module id="3001" name="["]DoubleHeatSink_MkI" CType="CHeatSinkStats" faction="InnerSphere">
<ModuleStats slots="3" tons="1" health="7.5" />
<Loc nameTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI" descTag="@DoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" iconTag="StoreIconsDoubleHeatSink_MkI.dds" />
<HeatSinkStats cooling="0.15" engineCooling="0.2" heatbase="-1.5" />
<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_double_a" />"]
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed" />
</Module>
<Module id="3004" name="["]ClanDoubleHeatSink" CType="CHeatSinkStats" faction="Clan">
<ModuleStats slots="2" tons="1" health="5" />
<Loc nameTag="@CDoubleHeatSink_MkI" descTag="@CDoubleHeatSink_MkI_desc" iconTag="StoreIconsClanDoubleHeatSink.dds"/>
<HeatSinkStats cooling="0.15" engineCooling="0.2" heatbase="-1.5" />
<EffectList>
<Effect name="SteamEffect" asset="mech_effects.heatsinks.steam_double_a" />"]
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_Mech_HeatSink_Destroyed" />
[size=3] </Module>

Quote

- heat node works only on the base 30 heat cap not on the heatsink despite what pgi statement.

Yeah, this I don't know about. When in doubt, trust what PGI directly says. But if the guide you linked is correct, and Heat Containment ONLY applies to the base 30 capacity, then that means Cool Run is all the more a clear winner.


However, I don't know when PGI has stated anything on this, nor do I have evidence either way. Do you have any other information?

Edited by Tarogato, 10 June 2017 - 04:01 PM.