62 replies to this topic

[Spheroid]

The Strider is completely viable if it utilizes the same increased cooling quirk that many lights currently enjoy. With a 240 STD the sole heatsink is located in the right leg. Going this route allows the chassis to remain stock and enjoy the somewhat large number of free crits.

The total heat dissipation should be close to but slightly less than if they build had used doubles. I suggest the multiplier value be equivalent to nine integral of DHS type + the cooling of a tenth external of SHS variety.

Edited by Spheroid, 05 June 2017 - 09:02 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The sad part is I think you will find IS Omnimech performance less that you would hope it to be. Omnimechs have so many build restrictions that combined with IS tech, they will likely under perform.

[Spheroid]

@Viktor: Not if they allow mixed tech.

[Khobai]

Quote

@Viktor: Not if they allow mixed tech.

Then why would anyone ever play clans again?

If you take away the clan tech advantage their mechs will be worse than IS mechs in virtually every way. The only advantage clan mechs get is better weapon tech. They get worse survivability, no weapon quirks, and way worse agility.

Id rather have asymmetrical balance anyway, it makes the game more interesting.

Edited by Khobai, 05 June 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[FLG 01]

We should avoid sweeping judgements like "all IS Omnis are bad", simply because there are so many of them with radically different characteristics.

Sure, an Avatar would be a slow, easily destroyed death trap. The Men Shen however would be a meta Mech par excellence: good geometry, good hardpoints, good speed, ECM... Saying the Men Shen would be bad in MWO is flat wrong.

Thus it makes no sense judging them as if they were the same. Men Shen, Black Hawk-KU, Raptor, Hauptmann, or Templar would work reasonably well. Some better than others, of course, but the same is true for BattleMechs.

[Spheroid]

@Khobai: In what world do you see fourteen slot fixed endo becoming meta? I only said it would compensate not dominate. The synergistic min maxing on edge cases is what interests me.

Would a Clan tech Persus really be better than a Night Gyr? I doubt the Persus would receive better base quirks than a standard Orion. It would certainly need uber durability quirks with the game's worst hitbox + 300XL. Your fears are unfounded.

Edited by Spheroid, 05 June 2017 - 10:26 AM.

[Ch_R0me]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

Raptor does not have a Clan XL. Still an IS XL. But ain't care, it will be decent enough.

Hmm...

Yeah, you're right, I've assumed that salvaged Clan XL's were put in.


Also...
I forgot about this little fella - the Owens. I've tended to name it "Oat", because in Polish it's "Owies"

[razenWing]

The thing is, does the IS XL really matter that much in combat? In my experience, very little. If I am in a position to be XL cored, I was playing badly anyhow.

Elite players always run XL, because they are faster and match weapon loadout of Clans. Perhaps all those imbalance talk stems from the simple fact that too much people are worrying about how not to die, but not enough about how to live.

XL Sunder, Templar would absolutely be gorgeous. You can easily make up for the deficiency with padded armor (as Bushwacker demonstrated... 55 tonner with the enormous tankiness of a heavy) and/or torso twist rate increase quirk.

----------

Edit: That weakling talk aside, I really couldn't care less about any of those above mechs except the Templar, as they all suck balls in design to me. Avatar in MW3 is one of the ugliest mech in game, and something I gave to my lancemate whenever I know there's a mission with guarantee losses coming up.

Edited by razenWing, 05 June 2017 - 10:09 AM.

[MechaBattler]

We'll see them for the simple fact PGI likes money.

As for them being good. It's more a question of whether the IS Omni has good side torso hitboxes for XLs. Or they'll just band aid them with extra armor/structure quirks. I'm sure people will buy them just for the nostalgia.

[KHETTI]

I can't wait to see what Alex does with the Avatar!.

[R Valentine]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

My comment was focused on the Raptor because, generally, I agree about the bad hit-boxes. But, I will indulge you:

The ones hard up are the ones with low hard-points , which is most of them (also most BattleMechs, as it were). The exceptional examples are the BJ-O (high hard-points, can poke and jump), the BH-KU (excellent hit boxes, massive firepower), Men-Shen (good speed, good front-forward hit-boxes, good firepower). Even then, though, it is still better that the rest have XL than STD, because they can at least mount decent firepower (i.e. Sunder). Better a glass cannon than a non-threatening bullet sponge. And incidentally, also usually better to be a glass cannon in MWO than some mediocre in-betweener, which is what you get using LFE.

Finally, the Wobby Omnis blow almost as much as the Owens and Strider do. Assuming you are referring to the Celestials: low hardpoints, slow, wide. That they can take a hit and pack ECM are about the only things going for them.

The only thing IS omnimechs is going to do is confirm what clan battlemechs have already taught us. Omnis are bad. Clan omnimechs get by because clan. IS battlemechs get by because battlemech. Clan battlemechs show us the best of both worlds and all of their glory. IS omnimechs are going to be the worst of both and all of their failures. Why anyone would want them, other than nostalgia, is just beyond me. PGI has done everything wrong in both the XL and the omni departments. Combining the two is just culminating all of their failures into one giant dumpster fire.

[Y E O N N E]

Kiran Yagami, on 05 June 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

The only thing IS omnimechs is going to do is confirm what clan battlemechs have already taught us. Omnis are bad. Clan omnimechs get by because clan. IS battlemechs get by because battlemech. Clan battlemechs show us the best of both worlds and all of their glory. IS omnimechs are going to be the worst of both and all of their failures. Why anyone would want them, other than nostalgia, is just beyond me. PGI has done everything wrong in both the XL and the omni departments. Combining the two is just culminating all of their failures into one giant dumpster fire.

Some of us get our jollies by figuring out how to build and play hard 'Mechs; it's why I favor dropping IS, because building a Clan 'Mech typically takes no serious thought or sacrifices at all. Some of the IS Omnis are about as good as some if the better IS BattleMechs, and that's good enough for me.

[R Valentine]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

Some of us get our jollies by figuring out how to build and play hard 'Mechs; it's why I favor dropping IS, because building a Clan 'Mech typically takes no serious thought or sacrifices at all. Some of the IS Omnis are about as good as some if the better IS BattleMechs, and that's good enough for me.

That doesn't change the fact that IS omnis are going to be nothing more than a big bag of disappointment. Not everyone wants to play with ankle weights on. The idea just isn't sound in MWO. Omnis were meant to limit clan builds via fixed slots. Well, IS builds are already limited, so limiting them further is just stupid. Don't forget about locked endo/ferro slots. You know, the endo and ferro that takes twice as many crits as their clan counterparts. You won't even be able to fit what weapons you want, and don't even try fitting enough heat sinks. You know, those heat sinks that already take up more room than their clan counterparts. It's one giant failure all around. Omnis are not, in fact, this amazing gateway to variable hardpoints. Their a limitation to help keep clan loadouts in check. IS doesn't need more handicaps.

[Y E O N N E]

Kiran Yagami, on 05 June 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

That doesn't change the fact that IS omnis are going to be nothing more than a big bag of disappointment. Not everyone wants to play with ankle weights on. The idea just isn't sound in MWO. Omnis were meant to limit clan builds via fixed slots. Well, IS builds are already limited, so limiting them further is just stupid. Don't forget about locked endo/ferro slots. You know, the endo and ferro that takes twice as many crits as their clan counterparts. You won't even be able to fit what weapons you want, and don't even try fitting enough heat sinks. You know, those heat sinks that already take up more room than their clan counterparts. It's one giant failure all around. Omnis are not, in fact, this amazing gateway to variable hardpoints. Their a limitation to help keep clan loadouts in check. IS doesn't need more handicaps.

I will be able to fit exactly the weapons I want because I already know what to expect and have already theory-crafted accordingly. Only the ignorant will be surprised and indignant about what they find.

And nobody is forcing you to play them. Continue playing the board leaders if it pleases you to only play the best. PGI is going to release sub-par 'Mechs here and there whether we like it or not; I would rather they at least provide a challenging puzzle in the process.

[R Valentine]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

I will be able to fit exactly the weapons I want because I already know what to expect and have already theory-crafted accordingly. Only the ignorant will be surprised and indignant about what they find.

And nobody is forcing you to play them. Continue playing the board leaders if it pleases you to only play the best. PGI is going to release sub-par 'Mechs here and there whether we like it or not; I would rather they at least provide a challenging puzzle in the process.

No one forces me to play with anything, but I'd rather not have PGI release more useless mechs. At least release good IS mechs. Mechs we want. Don't release garbage that .0005% of the player base will use in the end. Give us something nice, and omnimechs ain't that.

[Y E O N N E]

Kiran Yagami, on 05 June 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

No one forces me to play with anything, but I'd rather not have PGI release more useless mechs. At least release good IS mechs. Mechs we want. Don't release garbage that .0005% of the player base will use in the end. Give us something nice, and omnimechs ain't that.

They did just give us some nice ones. There are only a handful of remaining 'Mechs that are considerably better than what we have now or will have shortly:

Lynx for Medium
Dragonfire and Toyama for Heavy
Sagittaire and Fafnir for Assault

...and nothing at all for Lights; Javelin takes the crown.

I would be happy as pie if they released those, but that's it for IS.

Also, the four IS Omnis I mentioned (Raptor, Men Shen, Blackhawk-KU, and Sunder) are quite good by IS standards. I woukd be happy to have them on their own merits. The rest are mostly piddly and I won't miss them too much.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Also, the four IS Omnis I mentioned (Raptor, Men Shen, Blackhawk-KU, and Sunder) are quite good by IS standards. I woukd be happy to have them on their own merits. The rest are mostly piddly and I won't miss them too much.

i feel that these 4 plus a slight change to OmniMech Construction Rules,

Andi Nagasia, on 05 June 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

all they would need to do is amend some of the OmniMech Rules, for the better of OmniMechs,
allowing OmniMechs to change engine Type could help make IS OmniMechs Viable,

a Raptor being able to choose between a 175STD / 175LFE / 175XL, could do alot for its options,
and this type of change wouldnt really benefit Clan OmniMech, well maybe the KingFisher,

could give enought Options to keep IS OmniMechs Viable in some Instances,

[Willard Phule]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 June 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

all they would need to do is amend some of the OmniMech Rules, for the better of OmniMechs,
allowing OmniMechs to change engine Type could help make IS OmniMechs Viable,

a Raptor being able to choose between a 175STD / 175LFE / 175XL, could do alot for its options,
and this type of change wouldnt really benefit Clan OmniMech, well maybe the KingFisher,

Nope. Clan Omnis can't swap engines, structure or armor type, IS Omnis shouldn't be allowed to either.

And the last thing anyone wants is for us filthy Clanners to make the Dire Whale viable again. Or make a 150+ kph Cheetah. Nope, we're OP. Haven't you heard?

[The6thMessenger]

ManganMan, on 05 June 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:

Speedy Gonzales's mech, eh?
http://www.sarna.net...re_Moth_(Dasher)


Some Clan Omnis also haven't endo (but may have FF - Executor for example) and fixed XL's and I didn't heard so much complaints about that... That's the nature of the OmniMech technology.

Raptor have DHS and clan Omni IS Omni 175 XL engine.

Yes, Strider have singles, but why needs double when missile weaponry is employed? They're not hot as energy weapons...

Addendum:
Strider have STD engine, interesting...

Avatar & Sunder have IS XL, so that mechs are in quite vulnerable position, but both have DHS as Raptor.

And yes - I've played MW4:Mercs, and so far I didn't had problem with the Sunder, exept the fact that all hits goes almost excusively onto CT

Aside from inferior mech upgrades, the heavier equipment further confounds the IS omnimechs. I think they would be completely god-quirked if they are ever to work.

[Andi Nagasia]

Willard Phule, on 05 June 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Nope. Clan Omnis can't swap engines, structure or armor type, IS Omnis shouldn't be allowed to either.

And the last thing anyone wants is for us filthy Clanners to make the Dire Whale viable again. Or make a 150+ kph Cheetah. Nope, we're OP. Haven't you heard?

didnt read what i posted, and personally i couldnt care about TT Rules, as MWO doesnt follow them anyway,
this change i feel we Need in MWO for balance, of OmniMechs mostly IS Omnis, and doesnt effect Clan Omnis too much,