188 replies to this topic

[LowSubmarino]

With all respect.

I bet all the money I have ever earned in my entire life, that ever single monkey on the planet will learn to use a gauss in 10 seconds.

Thats how easy it is to use the charge mechanic.

Its even too easy.

Make it at least 5 times more taxing in terms of key combinations or hold mechanics or combos so that it takes way more skill to master it.

That way itll be a more specialized weapons.

But honestly.

if every single monkey on this planet can instantly use them even when completly drunk and in a coma and even when not even looking at the monitor.....how could any human on the planet ever struggle with that?

That just doesnt make any sense no matter how you look at it.

[Natred]

They want to pew pew on instant. They can not alter there muscle memory it appears to utilize its effectiveness.

I do not use any macro software. I just have used it enough to be familiar with it. Very familiar

Skills pay the bills. Get salty.

Honestly i probobly thought the same thing first time i used them. Adapt or die. Crying and whinng will get you killed.

Edited by Natred, 08 June 2017 - 06:47 AM.

[Kaethir]

I'm not a huge fan of the mechanic... but...

I'm curious if the "you can't fire more than 2 at a time" is tied to the charge-up, since I haven't seen it on any other weapon. And if taking away the charge-up allows a 4-heat 60-point long-range high velocity alpha.... the quad-gauss kdk-3 will thank you, most everybody else will not.

[Admiral-Dan]

The Gauss is the only weapon which requires a little bit of skill.
Please stop the dumbing down of MWO to only one click alpha builds.

[Humpday]

I like the charge time, it requires actual skill to use it.
Once mastered your release is automatic, you dont' even have to listen for the chargeup tone, or rely on the reticle to go green.

I mean otherwise, its just another same old ballistic, click shoot...no different, rather boring.

It does take a long time to get used to using it and be good at it. On my alternate account I've climbed it from 200damage to 400-600. And am now started to get better at the jump snipe.

The ST bolsters that even, allowing for 1 second longer hold time.

Its cool, i like it, the alternative would be to get pummel with Guass at long range.

[Dollar Bill]

FupDup, on 07 June 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

The Shadow Cat doesn't use Gauss because of tonnage limitations. You'd only have 1 ton of pod space remaining after you mount the obligatory 3 tons of ammo. The charge-up is irrelevant to the Gaussless-Scat phenomenon.

I use gauss on my Shadow Cat with no problems. I'm able to take 3 tons of ammo and a er-medium laser for backup or extra punch when needed. It's not the most powerful build, but the guass/ecm combo can be very effective in the sniper/support role.

[Lightfoot]

FupDup, on 07 June 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

The Shadow Cat doesn't use Gauss because of tonnage limitations. You'd only have 1 ton of pod space remaining after you mount the obligatory 3 tons of ammo. The charge-up is irrelevant to the Gaussless-Scat phenomenon.

Go back to Mechlab. It's very possible, but with the charge-up it just makes lasers or lasers plus whatever, the more powerful option.

Gauss Rifles in MW4 did just as much damage and traveled at roughly 4000 meters per second, much faster than MWO's at any rate, and they didn't break the game. I think MW4 mechs had smaller CT's and tougher ST's though and of course Gauss Rifles had their canon 8 second recharge. 8 seconds would be too long in MWO which has accelerated recycles, but 6 seconds with no charge-up would produce comparably balanced recycles. Could MWO bare it? Well assuming that once you know the mechanic it becomes irrelevant, you just pair it with Lasers for instance, I think the only difference would be everyone, new and skilled, would be able to use a Gauss Rifle on any build and they would be able to fire them on the fly, shooting from the hip. That would fit Light and Medium mech playstyles. The Shadowcat too. I don't think the charge-up blocks you from hitting any target though, not much moves that fast.

So there are benefits and and drawbacks to removing the charge-up.

Edited by Lightfoot, 08 June 2017 - 08:28 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Dollar Bill, on 08 June 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

I use gauss on my Shadow Cat with no problems. I'm able to take 3 tons of ammo and a er-medium laser for backup or extra punch when needed. It's not the most powerful build, but the guass/ecm combo can be very effective in the sniper/support role.

Truth be told mine has ECM and 2 ER Mediums and a Gauss that rarely runs out of ammo at the expense of a bit of armor. So it's very do-able, but you rarely see it.

Edited by Lightfoot, 08 June 2017 - 08:31 AM.

[Gwei Loong]

I have to say it makes no sense for PGI to allow macros but not implement the way they work in game.



This is the only way I will run a Gauss Rifle but what happens is some people like the guy the OP described don't know you can do these sort of things and there for it just gives an unfair advantage to the one's running it.
The charge up also makes no sense based on the fact that this weapon system explodes if you crit it based on how they are supposed to work as a magnetically charge device.
So technically the manual charge up for this weapon system is already just a delay. As shown in the video you can chose to either hold for the delay before peeking around corners or fire on the fly in a brawl without having to think. PGI could change it.

Edited by Gwei Loong, 08 June 2017 - 08:45 AM.

[Dollar Bill]

Jiang Wei, on 07 June 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

Quote from that topic: "Might explain why so many higher-ELO players have started using Gauss again... hmmm"


See PGI? The charge up nerf might as well be reverted. The only people who are handicapped by the nerf are those not using a macro cheat. Thats isnt fair to purists now is it.

Hell, that macro looks more complicated that just learning how to use Gauss! I don't use a macro, and I do rather well with Gauss. I was even able to rank 7th on the MAD-IIC-D leader board when it first came out using Gause/ER-Large. For me, a macro would take the fun and sense of skill accomplishment out of using Gauss.

Plus, as much as I like them, I'd rather not see more Gauss on the battle field. Hate being hit by them and trying to find the guy hitting me (usually a higher tier player who I know can kill me fast.) But I do enjoy being that guy doing the hitting. Just love seeing the way the sparks fly off the other guys armor! And yes, I'm a hippocratic.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Lightfoot, on 08 June 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

Go back to Mechlab. It's very possible, but with the charge-up it just makes lasers or lasers plus whatever, the more powerful option.

Gauss Rifles in MW4 did just as much damage and traveled at roughly 4000 meters per second, much faster than MWO's at any rate, and they didn't break the game. I think MW4 mechs had smaller CT's and tougher ST's though and of course Gauss Rifles had their canon 8 second recharge. 8 seconds would be too long in MWO which has accelerated recycles, but 6 seconds with no charge-up would produce comparably balanced recycles. Could MWO bare it? Well assuming that once you know the mechanic it becomes irrelevant, you just pair it with Lasers for instance, I think the only difference would be everyone, new and skilled, would be able to use a Gauss Rifle on any build and they would be able to fire them on the fly, shooting from the hip. That would fit Light and Medium mech playstyles. The Shadowcat too. I don't think the charge-up blocks you from hitting any target though, not much moves that fast.

So there are benefits and and drawbacks to removing the charge-up.

MW4 had about 4 times armor compared to PGI's double armor, most guns dealt less damage than their table top values and had longer reloads than mwo, hitboxes were mostly smaller due to thinner mechs and harder to pick apart, and aiming was a bit less fluid due to the much lower mobility values other than top speeds.

This mostly lead to mechs being very tanky, spreading damage very well, and fights taking awhile. Even still the meta in MW4 was poptarting with high firepower, dual gauss coupled with multiple ERPPCs on some jumping assault.

MW4 definitely isn't a shining example of balance, some guns were utterly useless were others are great, some mechs were pretty much trash while others were great. For the most part people didn't notice the balance issues much since it seems most players, at least on these forums, stuck to single player rather than going out in multiplayer, especially not competitive multiplayer.



Anyway, I'm still not of the opinion that gauss rifles needed a charge up in the first place and honestly feel they could go back to snap shot, AC20s could get their ghost heat limits brought up so you can fire more than 1 at a time, PPCs get boosted up to a nice 3 before ghost heat, and maybe we get rid of some of the 2014 era balance metrics from before the average laser alphas even hit 40.

[Shakma]

The bottom line is: if you're proficient enough by practicing with the GR it doesn't matter all that much except when attempting to take snapshots.

I personally disliked the change from the begining, since as others have pointed out: there are plenty of other variables to tackle the GR in case of overpreformance.

So we're left with a wonky mechanic, creating an arbitrary skill cap to a weapon. And while some got to like it for it's uniqueness, I'd be happy to see it go and changed in more conventional ways (aka via the other variables).

It's a bad and cumbersome approach to try to bring the GR in line with the other weapon systems by simply making it only viable for those who practice with it, since it doesn't rly cut down it's power but merely reduces the ammount of pple using it.

Hell give it some serious ammount of heat and make it be affected by ghostheat like the other weapons and I'd be fine with it. And don't try to reason with lore, as balance should rly come first in a FPS.

edit: and I do use the GR and got my fair ammount of practice with it. Still don't like the charge mechanic ^^.

Edited by Shakma, 08 June 2017 - 09:20 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Promessa, on 07 June 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

Yeah, that sounds like something Reno Blade suggested we do with PPC's

noo

Gauss Rifles are fine, Potatoes gonna potate. A help box when you drop in a guass equipped mech for the first time would also fix this. When I see people try to use srms at 500 meters with advanced zoom, I don't see people suggesting we make srm range infinite.

cough cough.

you asked?
Yes, I've suggested PPCs using auto-charge (delay) which makes PPCs harder to aim, as you have no control over the "release" as you have with Gauss charge (see signature).
This "idea" considered the ease of aiming PPCs, even with low velocity.

Removing Gauss charge? That would not be an improvement to the game!
Gauss + PPC are so strong, the only reason they are not the top meta currently is because laser vomit is easier and stronger.
Once energy rebalance (whatever will happen) is on the table, Gauss + PPC is going back to nr1 !

We need to make it harder to land shots to have more time to actually PLAY the battle (instead of walking simulator), not make it easier.

If it's not easy enough, players need more experience using it.
Same goes for Lasers and cUACs, as you need to hold the crosshair over the target to land all the damage.

And now comes my counter suggestion:
double charge time, double hold time = harder to brawl (longer charge), easier to snipe (longer hold) = perfect minimum-range simulated.

The only other idea floating around would be to increase damage on charge, but that seems lame to me (e.g. 7-10 damge without charge, 15 fully charged)

oh... and increasing the HEAT to 3-5 at least should be considered anyways.

Edited by Reno Blade, 08 June 2017 - 09:21 AM.

[Dollar Bill]

Jiang Wei, on 08 June 2017 - 02:11 AM, said:

I dont know what "PPFLD" stands for.

Me ether, but I see it a lot. What does PPFLD stand for?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Reno Blade, on 08 June 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Removing Gauss charge? That would not be an improvement to the game!
Gauss + PPC are so strong, the only reason they are not the top meta currently is because laser vomit is easier and stronger.
Once energy rebalance (whatever will happen) is on the table, Gauss + PPC is going back to nr1 !

So you state that gauss and PPC are strong but not the top meta, you then state teh laser vomit is both easier to use and stronger, and with both of those statements you come up with the conclusion that gauss and PPC will need a nerf because of the energy rebalance (which also includes PPCs) with no knowledge of if energy will be nerfed or buffed and which guns will become the new meta?

With lasers you hold the beam over targets but its instant hitscan damage, with PPCs/Gauss you have to lead a target with two guns that both have different velocities and one happens to have a charge up delay then you have to hope that your target doesn't make a sudden move or get behind cover before your shots hit assuming that you managed to properly lead your shot in the first place.

CUACs just have the duration thing and the leading thing but have higher DPS, though after the big UAC nerf they're pretty worthless unless you boat them like LRMs now. IS UACs and ACs remain pretty decent, pretty much just like a PPC but heavier and less heat with more dps.


Based on how many people I see out there who can't hold a pulse laser on a target for its duration I really don't think aiming needs to get any harder, really the people hitting you with gauss and PPC combos are rather experienced players who are great shots.

Dollar Bill, on 08 June 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

Me ether, but I see it a lot. What does PPFLD stand for?

Pin Point Frontloaded Damage, basically what a PPC or IS AC does where all the damage happens at once and all of it is put into one component with no spread.

Edited by Dakota1000, 08 June 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[ChapeL]

All the gauss charging mechanic did is remove it from the typical Alpha strike ( which was the point ). Most people will have difficulty executing the "finger gymnastics" required to fire a gauss round and PPC at the same time all the while dealing with everything else the game throws at you... which again, was the point at a time where the game was dominated by Gauss/PPC snipers. When you shoot the weapon alone, the mechanic is not annoying. You don't have to lead at all only timing is required. Couple it with a lead time weapon and yeah, it's a hassle but you guessed it... that was the point.

I liked the comment on page one I think, about keeping the charge indefinately but making the weapon excessively prone to catastrophic explosions when charged. If only there was a way to sumilate the neurofeedback that comes with such explosions...

[Humpday]

Dollar Bill, on 08 June 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

Me ether, but I see it a lot. What does PPFLD stand for?

Pin Point Front Loaded Damage, its a made up term to signify loadouts with heavy emphasis on Pin point damage weapons(guass, ppc, all IS AC) with armor emphasis heavily biased toward frontal armor with the thought that you will be engaging, predominantly, facing the primary enemy force with little need to expose your rear armor.

Unlike other loadouts, particularly fast med's or lights where you'll find yourself running in or past the enemy with a high(er) possibility of exposing your rear. Emphasis on "higher" as typically you should be twisting your torso to prevent such occurances, however...the butt of your mech still counts as a rear shot. ect ect I'm not going to explain further, you get the idea.

Edited by Humpday, 08 June 2017 - 11:51 AM.

[FupDup]

Lightfoot, on 08 June 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

Go back to Mechlab. It's very possible, but with the charge-up it just makes lasers or lasers plus whatever, the more powerful option.
---

Here's the mechlab: Gauss Scat Template

There isn't a whole lot you can do with 1 ton left over. Most people would opt for 2 ERSL I guess, which is still fairly underwhelming for a mech of this size.

The strength of the Gauss is that it can be used to add more damage to your payload after you've already maxed out your heat. This tradeoff is very worth it on mechs that have plenty of tonnage to burn but no way to mount enough heatsinks to compensate for MWO's increased heat generation values. On mechs with low tonnage, like the Shadow Cat, the Gauss Rifle is inefficient. Every ballistic other than the MG is pretty much the same way, being crappy on low-tonnage mechs that can barely afford to mount it, but becoming dramatically more powerful on high-tonnage mechs.

And no, stripping armor for more tonnage is not a good idea on a mech that has zero durability quirks (those got nerfed away) and generally low armor even when maxed out.

[Natred]

Its really quite simple. Ok heres what you do. Your in cover right. Chilling usually cooling down. So you decide you want shoot at stuff out of cover. So you start moving towards the edge of the cover. About a half second before you pop out hit and hold your mouse two button while searching for targets. So you find a good target, mentally you see the target. Is the guy moving sideways, standing still, going up or down? Than you put your cursor in trajectory of the target and release the mouse two.

[Weeny Machine]

SeventhSL, on 07 June 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

New players struggle with gauss. It is defiantly a skill that requires a bit of practice. That said I've seen new players struggle with lrm and complain that their ssrm is bugged because they don't have lock to fire. Really there is no cure for inexperience, bad connection, young children and just plain stupid.

There is also no substitute for practice.

There is: just use laser-vomit.