43 replies to this topic

[PFC Carsten]

Stahlherz, on 10 June 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

You forgot about that persistant group of players bring golf gear to basketball, refuse to work with their random team mates and still expect to get a level playing field.

That might make the difference between two roughly equally footed teams - well, maybe not golf gear, but track and field shoes opposed to basketball shoes. But when the harlem globetrotters play your son's team for kills, they would win even blindfolded - golf gear or not.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

PFC Carsten, on 10 June 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Did you ever try playing basketball in an ice hockey arena? Yep, totally not comparable.

Umm.. think you need some work on your analogies. QP is 12 v 12....just like FW...playing the very same mechs available in FW. mostly in the same modes as QP and also mostly on the same maps as QP....So, FW isn't remotely close to basketball played on ice. In fact, the equipment is all the same and everyone who even plays quick play has been on most of the "courts" before...many times. In fact outside of Siege, it is basketball played on a basketball court where we all play all the time...just we play 4 quarters and not just 1.

The major difference is the coordination of the competition..and it's not necessarily because FW pilots are always better shots than QP pilots coming over...It's really just mode where you can take the basic skills learned in quick play (equivalent to dribbling and shooting a basketball) and begin to learn to combine them with coordination (decks, target calling, team movement, etc).

Part of learning the things you don't learn in QP is dropping with and against teams. I saw first hand what a light rush could do...I saw how to stop it as well....If solos never play teams,they won't learn this stuff. Then FW really is just QP (just with respawns) and we already have that part of MWO well covered between solo And group QP.

[naterist]

MadBadger, on 09 June 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

@OP:
Actually, you in fact misrepresented the whole situation to once more pander to the whole 'git gud or GTFO, it's not our fault we're awesome' line of BS.

So let's retell the story properly.

The city has a limited number of basketball courts, which they built 5 years ago, which they aren't funding more of because they say only a few hardcore, adult players use them.

The hardcore players would like more courts so they could get more games going and more people playing, maybe they could develop an actual league or something, get some corporate support.

However in the meantime, they want to play, to stay in practice. So they send some flyers around to the local public school saying "Come out to play basketball at Rucker Park, sports are good for you! Bring your best game, because we play to win!"

Most of the schools in this area don't actually even have basketball courts, because the city won't pay for them. But hey, kids hear 'come play, it's good for you' and head on over to Rucker Park.

When they get there, they don't know anyone, and they haven't played together before, and some of them have never played at all. So an older kid who doesn't play and doesn't really give a dam about anything just sorts them into random teams and points them at a court, where a group of older, tougher men who've played together for several years are warming up.

The kids get stomped. But hey, they're kids, they're resilient, they try again. They get stomped again. Gritting their teeth, they try again. This time they at least score a few baskets, but still get stomped.

Kids quit playing and go back to soccer on the school grounds, where they can at least get a somewhat fair game going. City points to that and says "See? No point in spending more money on courts, if adults want to play they can spend their own damn money". Adults gripe that with no one forming new teams they'll soon have no one to play, and the courts will get converted to soccer fields, because soccer is 10x more popular anyway. (And soccer fields are cheaper than courts)

Parents committee suggests, maybe, perhaps, if some of the courts were reserved for only the kids to play on, that then some of those kids would get used to playing together and form better teams.

Adult teams tell them to shut up. "Git gud or gtfo mah court."

5 years later, there are no basketball courts left in Rucker Park.

i cannot emphasize this enough.

[MischiefSC]

So put the FW maps/modes in QP.

The problem now is the casual pickup guys want to go play on the courts where the coordinated teams play. That's what FW was created for. It's not gated and I'm against gating because people play alts.

This isn't the Mavs going around to high schools and rampaging over kids. This is kids going to a Cav/Mavs game in a tournament, saying they want to play a tournament court and then raging when they get rolled.

The LP and other higher rewards are there SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE FW IS A MORE CHALLENGING ENVIRONMENT. You just want to play with respawns? All for it. You Love them choke point siege maps? Go nuts cowboy.

You want LP, higher payouts, bonuses, etc? You're going to have to accept that it's a more challenging environment. You don't get to collect the higher tier rewards without the higher tier challenge. Playing in a team vs teams is the bigger challenge.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

naterist, on 10 June 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

i cannot emphasize this enough.

I understand the concern that if we don't get new players to stick that FW becomes a ghost town and dies. Nobody wins with that.

The problem with some these concerns is that you may well lose people whatever way PGI goes with, solo-queues, matchmaking, units, etc.

You make it too much about solo's, people like me will probably have to consider looking into comp play more seriously. I don't want FW to feel like QP. It's really hard to see what the unintended consequences of changes to the game will be. I am sure Long Tom felt like an awesome idea all the way through launch. PGI failed to see how that would crush queues and drive people away. Their "Addition" actually subtracted people from the mode. Bet they thought the opposite would happen...

When I was new to MWO, I got into FW way to early....and I was only Pugging to boot..in doing so I got my teeth kicked in plenty....but I enjoyed the challenge, even the seemingly lost-cause challenge of fighting a 12-man. I played, watched and learned from it all.... When I was perma-dead...which I was usually one of the first....I spectated better players to see how they did so well. I knew it was the deep-end of the pool (compared to QP) and that "here be dragons"...that was the attraction...it hadn't have been a challenge then what is the difference from the lower-tier QP experience for these new people? Let the new folks see what coordination looks like. Some will find it discouraging and quit the mode, but some will find it intoxicating and want to learn how to do what units do and eventually join one.

[DarklightCA]

PFC Carsten, on 10 June 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Did you ever try playing basketball in an ice hockey arena? Yep, totally not comparable.

Really? because the only thing currently different about Faction Play is a 4 drop respawn and LP rewards otherwise it's quick play gameplay on quick play maps in quick play game modes. Soooooo not comparable

[MischiefSC]

DarklightCA, on 10 June 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Really? because the only thing currently different about Faction Play is a 4 drop respawn and LP rewards otherwise it's quick play gameplay on quick play maps in quick play game modes. Soooooo not comparable

Put a respawn mode in QP. All for it.

If someone wants LP rewards they have to play the same challenges as everyone else. A split queue is about getting the rewards for less effort. That's not going to fly.

[PFC Carsten]

DarklightCA, on 10 June 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Really? because the only thing currently different about Faction Play is a 4 drop respawn and LP rewards otherwise it's quick play gameplay on quick play maps in quick play game modes. Soooooo not comparable

There is also the other "nice" maps. Those, that do not show up in quick play. Soooooo short of memory?

If you want to, you can keep all the LP for "real" FaP, heck, you can have mine too.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 10 June 2017 - 01:54 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The maps are actually what many people hated about FW. Chokepoints.

[DarklightCA]

PFC Carsten, on 10 June 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

There is also the other "nice" maps. Those, that do not show up in quick play. Soooooo short of memory?

If you want to, you can keep all the LP for "real" FaP, heck, you can have mine too.

You mean the maps nobody really ever gets to play, those poorly designed maps with all the chokepoints for the game mode nobody ever really gets to play.

No I did not forget about those but considering 90% of Faction Play is quick play maps on quick play game modes with quick play game play they weren't really worth mentioning considering how far along the line you have to get to play the faction play stuff.

[Chagatay]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

So put the FW maps/modes in QP.

The problem now is the casual pickup guys want to go play on the courts where the coordinated teams play. That's what FW was created for. It's not gated and I'm against gating because people play alts.

This isn't the Mavs going around to high schools and rampaging over kids. This is kids going to a Cav/Mavs game in a tournament, saying they want to play a tournament court and then raging when they get rolled.

The LP and other higher rewards are there SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE FW IS A MORE CHALLENGING ENVIRONMENT. You just want to play with respawns? All for it. You Love them choke point siege maps? Go nuts cowboy.
You want LP, higher payouts, bonuses, etc? You're going to have to accept that it's a more challenging environment. You don't get to collect the higher tier rewards without the higher tier challenge. Playing in a team vs teams is the bigger challenge.

Why?

PGI should put LP and other awards in QP (Every X games get mechbays and other goodies). PGI should remove all incentives/bribes for FaP. In all honesty, event bribery blows out the pittance that FaP gives anyways in practice so I am not even sure it really matters. Alternately, you could just remove all awards out of FaP.

I can't see why the FaP people would be unhappy.
You get rid of people chasing prizes and only get people that want to be there.

There should be NO incentives for FaP over QP.
It should rise and fall on its on merits.

[MischiefSC]

Chagatay, on 10 June 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

Why?

PGI should put LP and other awards in QP (Every X games get mechbays and other goodies). PGI should remove all incentives/bribes for FaP. In all honesty, event bribery blows out the pittance that FaP gives anyways in practice so I am not even sure it really matters. Alternately, you could just remove all awards out of FaP.

I can't see why the FaP people would be unhappy.
You get rid of people chasing prizes and only get people that want to be there.

There should be NO incentives for FaP over QP.
It should rise and fall on its on merits.

More effort should give more reward. If it wasn't more effort then why the cry for easier play via queue split and mm?

[Commander A9]

Actually, I caught the analogy.

Meanwhile, you CAN go to another court.

Mechwarrior 4...

Mechwarrior: Living Legends...

NetBattletech...

MekaMek...

Fellas, the big teams aren't to blame for your struggles, and even if there was something to suggest that the presence of organized teams in Faction Warfare makes pugs feel bad, why should the big teams assume the mantle of responsibility for the status of a game mode developed, owned, and operated by PGI?

Edited by Commander A9, 10 June 2017 - 03:11 PM.

[PFC Carsten]

DarklightCA, on 10 June 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

You mean the maps nobody really ever gets to play, those poorly designed maps with all the chokepoints for the game mode nobody ever really gets to play.

No I did not forget about those but considering 90% of Faction Play is quick play maps on quick play game modes with quick play game play they weren't really worth mentioning considering how far along the line you have to get to play the faction play stuff.

Yep, those. If you don't want them in FaP anyway, all the better.

[Chagatay]

MischiefSC, on 10 June 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

More effort should give more reward. If it wasn't more effort then why the cry for easier play via queue split and mm?

As I said remove any and all incentives or make them equal. Asking for a matchmaker is just common sense. Matchmakers are designed to make EVERYONE have harder fought matches.

If PGI wants to implement a true ladder system by season and reward people by participation in ranked play that is fine. Group quickplay (not FP) pays the same as solo quickplay. Why does quickplay with respawns deserve more rewards? I don't understand both styles are unranked. In fact, one could argue that the quickplay matches are more effort as you are pitted against opponents of similar caliber (they have a matchmaker).

On a personal note:
I don't play FaP as it is just QP with respawns as of latest iteration losing any and all uniqueness. The rewards never did matter to me all that much. I do miss FaP (the old FaP seasons 1/2) and have since become a true mercenary styled player (plays only for the high bribe events as I quickly get bored of QP skirms and just can't play them day in and out). It is sad really but.....

Edited by Chagatay, 10 June 2017 - 09:00 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

I was there, and what is worse than the OP and his race based basketball theories/games, is the fact 3 of the 4 guys on the "black" team (as it so needed to be pointed out) were Gary Coleman.

[LORD ORION]

Solo FP queue... lol

Where all the guds would go to farm C-bills while waiting for a 12v12 to be setup.

[Danjo San]

You forgot to mention that one team always plays on stilts.
Easier to dunk, but easy to knock over if you come close!

[MischiefSC]

Chagatay, on 10 June 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

As I said remove any and all incentives or make them equal. Asking for a matchmaker is just common sense. Matchmakers are designed to make EVERYONE have harder fought matches.

If PGI wants to implement a true ladder system by season and reward people by participation in ranked play that is fine. Group quickplay (not FP) pays the same as solo quickplay. Why does quickplay with respawns deserve more rewards? I don't understand both styles are unranked. In fact, one could argue that the quickplay matches are more effort as you are pitted against opponents of similar caliber (they have a matchmaker).

On a personal note:
I don't play FaP as it is just QP with respawns as of latest iteration losing any and all uniqueness. The rewards never did matter to me all that much. I do miss FaP (the old FaP seasons 1/2) and have since become a true mercenary styled player (plays only for the high bribe events as I quickly get bored of QP skirms and just can't play them day in and out). It is sad really but.....

No, a matchmaker is designed to keep you from having to compete. FW isn't a mix of every league of football - it's college ball but it allows NFL teams to come slum it when they want to (comp players) and non-'pro' (casual or bush league) to come play too. However the expectation of performance level is there and set.

FW is a specific challenge level. Teamwork oriented, being a faction vs faction warfare and all, with rewards to match. Think of it like an interim level between casual pug queue and comp in that regard. It's more of a commitment and more of a challenge but more of a reward.

Make sense?

LORD ORION, on 11 June 2017 - 12:41 AM, said:

Solo FP queue... lol

Where all the guds would go to farm C-bills while waiting for a 12v12 to be setup.

Honestly this is a big part of why it would fail. Anyone ever seen any leaderboard event, ever? Notice all the clearly alt names on the top of the leaderboard event as top tier players run alts to farm up against bad players?

Especially if the group queue is slow to get matches. It'd be worse than FW currently. A couple good players would just farm the holy living **** out of the other team in pug v pug.

[Tarl Cabot]

Commander A9, on 10 June 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

.......

Fellas, the big teams aren't to blame for your struggles, and even if there was something to suggest that the presence of organized teams in Faction Warfare makes pugs feel bad, why should the big teams assume the mantle of responsibility for the status of a game mode developed, owned, and operated by PGI?

Does almost everyone here that this IP is a niche game with small population split 3+ queues, Solo/Group between NA/EU/OC then FP?

Do many here believe that PGI is essential an absent landlord? That with the lack of features/coding PGI should be more involved by providing guidelines/behavior, "features" that can not really be coded into the game, or features/ideas that may be proving difficult to implement, with this engine and its scaleform?

In our type of environment, shouldn't the active units, be is Clan or IS loyalists or Mercs for both sides, help shoulder some of the responsibility some of the leadership roles that PGI actively lacks in an attempt to provide an actual challenge for their unit members while making it appear to be less of a seal clubbing event, when appropriate? MRBC, even with divisions, has rules that are not an integrated part of MWO.

edit, edit, edit -bah any type of comparison I attempted made the large active units the bad guys but they are not. But I also believe that said units could be more beneficial to the overall game health. Of course units are not obligated to change their MO, but would it really hurt to change things up? Does anyone see anything actually changing on the current road being paved?