439 replies to this topic

[SuperFunkTron]

Dee Eight, on 18 June 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

I've been repeating variations of it in a dozen threads so far... lord knows how many will be able to handle the truth of it.

Any chance you have a table of the lore values vs current values vs upcoming values?

The lack of context can be understandably frustrating to those who just see nerf after nerf to weapons, but once they see the info that the damage was previously inflated and now is being corrected to accommodate incoming weapons, it will take out a lot of the sting.

The explanations as to why they are making these changes are nice (I remember not too long ago people were complaining about a lack of explanations but seem to still not read them anyways), but it would be more helpful if PGI game some sort of comment in regards to what their current thoughts on fidelity to lore values are.

[Todd Marshall]

Dee Eight, on 17 June 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

Closer to the lore now though. Pulse lasers were generally not about more damage they were about more accuracy. This game equates the accuracy with the duration because most players cannot hold long duration lasers on target properly, But IS pulse lasers in battle tech were 2 heat 3 damage, 4 heat 6 damage and 10 heat 9 damage respectively for small to large. And Clan pulse lasers were 1 heat 3 damage, 2 heat 3 damage, 4 heat 7 damage, and 10 heat 10 damage respectively from micro thru large.

I beg to differ.

From sarna.net:

"...]Pulse lasers increase damage because they allow vaporized armor to dissipate from the location of damage. This allows subsequent pulses to reach the target area without being diffused by the vapor. ..."
If you have to be a smartass be smarter about it

Edited by Todd Marshall, 18 June 2017 - 07:26 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Todd Marshall, on 18 June 2017 - 07:26 AM, said:

I beg to differ.

From sarna.net:

"...]Pulse lasers increase damage because they allow vaporized armor to dissipate from the location of damage. This allows subsequent pulses to reach the target area without being diffused by the vapor. ..."
If you have to be a smartass be smarter about it

While that might be the case, it should be stated that it increases *subsequent* damage clearly. Big difference. If you only hit them one time, the damage would not be elevated, if i read that quote correctly its the follow up volleys that are not affected by residue.

Unless we we to give a component a debuff because of the initial pulse hit, not sure how that would be implemented.

And just to be clear, none of us should expect TT stats in an RTS since there so many more complexities that must be accounted for.

...they are good baseline/starting point but it is unrealistic to assume TT can perfectly translate to RTS, or some MW title would have done so already. Every single one deviates in one way or another.

Edited by MovinTarget, 18 June 2017 - 08:04 AM.

[Todd Marshall]

MovinTarget, on 18 June 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

While that might be the case, it should that it increases *subsequent* damage. Big difference. If you only hit them one time, the damage would not be elevated, if i read that quote correctly its the follow up volleys that are not affected by residue.

"Subsequent" as in each individual pulse. Better get your legs ready.

Edit: Basically what Wendigo said.

Edited by Todd Marshall, 18 June 2017 - 07:52 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

Any chance you have a table of the lore values vs current values vs upcoming values?

Just for the cSPL dmg/heat

Lore: 3 dmg / 2 heat

MWO June 2014: initially 3.4 dmg / 3.4 heat
MWO July 2014: increased to 4.4 dmg / 3.4 heat
MWO Nov 2014: Increased to 6.0 dmg / 3.0 heat
MWO June 2017: Decrease to 4.0 dmg / 2.7 heat

MWO Dec 2014: Release of Community Warfare aka Faction Play

Pulse Lasers had a -2 gunnery hit modifier. Heavy Lasers had a +1 gunnery hit modifier.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 21 June 2017 - 03:55 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Todd Marshall, on 18 June 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

Better get your legs ready.

I'm in IDI, my legs have to always be ready

Yes, I see the point now.

But I'll stand by my edited statement that TT is a good starting point, but since you can't play a RTS like its TT source material, things can't necessarily stay the way they were.

It starts with movement and the fact that there are no real gunnery/piloting skill modifiers and cascades from there.

Edited by MovinTarget, 18 June 2017 - 08:30 AM.

[Todd Marshall]

MovinTarget, on 18 June 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

I'm in IDI, my legs have to always be ready

Yes, I see the point now.

But I'll stand by my edited statement that TT is a good starting point, but since you can't play a RTS like its TT source material, things can't necessarily stay the way they were.

It starts with movement and the fact that there are no real gunnery/piloting skill modifiers and cascades from there.

I was just trying to shove D8s lore argument back into his face. Balance wise, I cannot be arsed to make any compromising statements, since PGI will do and we must adapt and I cannot even find a place to start pointing out how horrible many design and procedure decisions have been lately.

[Dee Eight]

SuperFunkTron, on 18 June 2017 - 07:15 AM, said:

Any chance you have a table of the lore values vs current values vs upcoming values?

The lack of context can be understandably frustrating to those who just see nerf after nerf to weapons, but once they see the info that the damage was previously inflated and now is being corrected to accommodate incoming weapons, it will take out a lot of the sting.

The explanations as to why they are making these changes are nice (I remember not too long ago people were complaining about a lack of explanations but seem to still not read them anyways), but it would be more helpful if PGI game some sort of comment in regards to what their current thoughts on fidelity to lore values are.

There are tables in the back of all the major CBT core rules sourcebooks, the 3050 TRO, and others. Pages 341 & 343 of the CBT TechManual Hardcover edition from Catalyst Game labs printed in 2007 is what is sitting next to me.

Todd Marshall, on 18 June 2017 - 07:26 AM, said:

I beg to differ.

From sarna.net:

"...]Pulse lasers increase damage because they allow vaporized armor to dissipate from the location of damage. This allows subsequent pulses to reach the target area without being diffused by the vapor. ..."
If you have to be a smartass be smarter about it

Sarna is open source...its like wikipedia...its great for any schmuck editing an entry to suit whatever falsehoods they wanna spew. The actual printed manuals from the actual official sources on the other hand.... FASA and Catalyst... well.... sorry if their facts get in the way of your sarna flavour text.

From the TechManual I mentioned above... description for pulse lasers on page 226...

"The pulse laser uses rapid-cycling, high-energy pulses to generate multiple laser beams, creating an effect comparable to machine-gun fire. But because the staggered pulses give the protective ablation products from combat armor a chance to disperse - to expose fresh armor to subsequent pulses - the result is a burst of fire that is more effective and accurate."

Pulse lasers while in selected cases DID more damage than beam versions (the micro pulse vs the micro ER and the inner sphere medium pulse vs the standard or ER medium for example), in most every other case it was the same or less damage. The reason they were popular though wasn't for the damage but the -2 on the to hit target number from the increased accuracy. When you have to roll 2D6 for EVERY single individual weapon you attack with, lowering the target number you need to beat by 2 points is a significant improvement. Most players preferred to hit and do less damage over not hitting at all with a weapon that could have done more damage.

Other areas PGI has taken liberties with CBT core weapon rules would be the ranges. Ignoring the whole optimal / maximum nonsense... even the optimal #s don't always compare properly to the maximums in CBT.

Inner Sphere...

standard lasers... smalls are supposed to be 90 meters, mediums 270 meters and larges 450 meters.
ER lasers... smalls are 150 meters, mediums 360 meters, and large 570 meters.
Pulse lasers... smalls are 90 meters, mediums 180 meters and larges 300 meters.

Clan

ER lasers... micro 120 meters, small 180 meters, medium 450 meters, large 750 meters
Pulse lasers... micro 90 meters, small 180 meters, medium 360 meters, large 600 meters
Heavy lasers... small 90 meters, medium 270 meters, large 450 meters

edit : I'm surprised the energy balance pass didn't adjust the ranges also because right now the inner sphere small is where the ER version would be in CBT, the medium and large standards are correct, but the small, medium and large pulses are boosted ranges. On the clan side, the small ER and pulses are different, the mediums have less range and the larges are 10 meters less for the ER and exactly on the marker for the pulse. I'm not sure where PGI intends to put the inner sphere ER small or the clan heavies now for ranges next month.

Edited by Dee Eight, 18 June 2017 - 09:12 AM.

[Todd Marshall]

Dee Eight, on 18 June 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Sarna is open source...its like wikipedia...its great for any schmuck editing an entry to suit whatever falsehoods they wanna spew. The actual printed manuals from the actual official sources on the other hand.... FASA and Catalyst... well.... sorry if their facts get in the way of your flavour text.

All official tables support the flavor text though. Across the board, PLs do marginally more damage than their standart counterparts. Nothing is in the way of my flavour text and I'm pretty sure Sarna didn't invent it either. You're just being a dingus now.

Edit: Found myself in error here. The small laser actually does the same damage, so it's just mostly, not across the board.

Edited by Todd Marshall, 18 June 2017 - 09:07 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Todd Marshall, on 18 June 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

I was just trying to shove D8s lore argument back into his face. Balance wise, I cannot be arsed to make any compromising statements, since PGI will do and we must adapt and I cannot even find a place to start pointing out how horrible many design and procedure decisions have been lately.

And you failed to do so as you lacked any official facts to do it with.

[Tamerlin]

Comp mode:

Information I think is missing:

• Map selection - are all maps in the rotation, and then only five presented for map ban?
  
• Comp Mode game build - is the build frozen with June, or does the buld get patched every month like the live game?
  
• Cbill mechs - like above, if a mech becomes available for cbills within a season is it now eligible?
  
• Do you earn Cbills? If not, do consumables cost? Or is it like Private Matches

Notes:
Champion Mechs are just pre-built versions of existing mechs. They should be allowed in Comp Mode

[Dee Eight]

Todd Marshall, on 18 June 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

All official tables support the flavor text though. Across the board, PLs do marginally more damage than their standart counterparts. Nothing is in the way of my flavour text and I'm pretty sure Sarna didn't invent it either. You're just being a dingus now.

Except they do NOT... small pulse lasers...officially...do the same damage or less than the standard, heavy and ER cousins. Medium and Larges do 1 point more only for the IS version...the clan large pulses are the same damage as the clan ER larges. They're NOT ever doing twice, 50 or 33 percent more as PGI has had them. The Inner sphere small lasers are ALL 3 damage regardless of type. The mediums are 5 (standard), 5 (ER) and 6 (pulse). Larges are 8, 8 and 9. Clan Micros are 2 and 3, smalls are 5 (ER) and 3 (pulse) and 6 (heavy), Mediums are 7 and 7 and 10 (heavy). larges are 10 and 10 and 16 (heavy).

[Todd Marshall]

Dee Eight, on 18 June 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

Except they do NOT... small pulse lasers...officially...do the same damage or less than the standard, heavy and ER cousins. Medium and Larges do 1 point more only for the IS version...the clan large pulses are the same damage as the clan ER larges. They're NOT ever doing twice, 50 or 33 percent more as PGI has had them. The Inner sphere small lasers are ALL 3 damage regardless of type. The mediums are 5 (standard), 5 (ER) and 6 (pulse). Larges are 8, 8 and 9. Clan Micros are 2 and 3, smalls are 5 (ER) and 3 (pulse) and 6 (heavy), Mediums are 7 and 7 and 10 (heavy). larges are 10 and 10 and 16 (heavy).

Guess I'm going to have to delete all my comments now.

I may have been reading heat for damage all along. I concede.

Edited by Todd Marshall, 18 June 2017 - 09:35 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Todd Marshall, on 18 June 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Guess I'm going to have to delete all my comments now.

There is clan ERPulses and they do more damage than their non-pulse counterparts.
There is also standart lasers for the clans and guessed it? They do less damage than pulse variants.

So if you're content on being right by comparing apples to oranges, feel free.

eXCEPT... and this is really grasping at straws...the ER Pulses were invented for video games... they didn't exist in the official CBT rules except as "experimental" equipment available for home games. You couldn't bring a mech with them to an actual tournament game at a gaming convention or shop. Again though...the large version was still the SAME 10 damage as the regular ER and regular pulse large clan lasers. The medium version was again the same 7 points of damage, and the small version while doing the same damage as the ER Small, at only 180 meters of range... was no better ranged than either the ER or Pulse versions, and at 1.5 tons and 3 heat both was much heavier and less heat efficient. A Clan mech could mount 3 regular ER Smalls and do more damage for the same heat load as two ER Small Pulses at half the weight. Also the medium and large versions are also bulkier taking 1 extra critical space each.

As listed in their sarna entries...they were mentioned once...in one printed manual only (the tactical operations handbook) and never re-printed again. They didn't ever make it into any TRO's or core construction rule books. Laser AMS is another one of those things that were only published in certain supplements and otherwise only found their way into video games but never into the core construction rule books. Reactive and Reflective armor, similarly...tactical operations handbook (which I own) but not the core construction rules.

Clan ER Medium lasers and Medium Pulse lasers are identical damage. 7 points each. The trade off was 1 ton vs 2 tons, 5 heat vs 4, 450 meters vs 360 meters. No accuracy bonus or an accuracy bonus but the damages were the same either way.

The only clan units with standard lasers were battle armor (small lasers only), vintage star league era mechs (like personally owned Orions which were presented as gifts since they were the personal mech of choice for good ol' all-father Kerensky), and proto mechs (again, small lasers only). When Wolf's Dragoons arrived in the inner sphere, while they showed up with pristine condition star league era mechs... they did so with the same weapons they were originally equipped with, not the clan improved versions. Again as I said..many times now...the clan SMALL PULSE LASER did 3 damage. The standard small laser did 3 damage. Only the Clan ER and Heavy versions did more damage in that size of laser.

Why is this so complicated for you to comprehend ?

Edited by Dee Eight, 18 June 2017 - 10:05 AM.

[Vraun Hakkar]

I don't know if this has already been posted... but relating to this line:
"Hero 'Mechs, Champion 'Mechs (and Trials), and other Special variants are not eligible for use in Competitive Play."

I don't think that champions or other equivalent "special" champions should be disallowed from competitive mode.
They are just the normal variants but with a c-bill bonus.

If I have a favorite mech that I want to use but it is a champion, am I now forced to buy the normal version just so that I can play it in competitive? I don't think this kind of scenario is fair. How were we supposed to know when we were buying these mechs that one day they would be disallowed?

If the c-bill bonus is the issue here, why not just nullify the c-bill bonus when such mechs are used in competitive mode?

[Peiper]

Black Cat Watching, on 16 June 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

I am assuming this was not a spur of the moment "balance" (I note that that may not be a good assumption), if that was the case, and this was a nerf you were intending all along, why didn't do it before the skill tree patch? Had I known that this was what you were up to, I would have skill up on heat management - instead now I need to spend more skill points to reconfigure my clan mechs.

Oh wait - I get it - that was pure genius - you guys got me to waste my skill points! Kudos to you.

They balance stuff when they need to make it look like they're doing something with the game instead of adding maps and other content.

[Todd Marshall]

Dee Eight, on 18 June 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

eXCEPT... and this is really grasping at straws...the ER Pulses were invented for video games... they didn't exist in the official CBT rules except as "experimental" equipment available for home games. You couldn't bring a mech with them to an actual tournament game at a gaming convention or shop. Again though...the large version was still the SAME 10 damage as the regular ER and regular pulse large clan lasers. The medium version was again the same 7 points of damage, and the small version while doing the same damage as the ER Small, at only 180 meters of range... was no better ranged than either the ER or Pulse versions, and at 1.5 tons and 3 heat both was much heavier and less heat efficient. A Clan mech could mount 3 regular ER Smalls and do more damage for the same heat load as two ER Small Pulses at half the weight. Also the medium and large versions are also bulkier taking 1 extra critical space each.

As listed in their sarna entries...they were mentioned once...in one printed manual only (the tactical operations handbook) and never re-printed again. They didn't ever make it into any TRO's or core construction rule books. Laser AMS is another one of those things that were only published in certain supplements and otherwise only found their way into video games but never into the core construction rule books. Reactive and Reflective armor, similarly...tactical operations handbook (which I own) but not the core construction rules.

Clan ER Medium lasers and Medium Pulse lasers are identical damage. 7 points each. The trade off was 1 ton vs 2 tons, 5 heat vs 4, 450 meters vs 360 meters. No accuracy bonus or an accuracy bonus but the damages were the same either way.

The only clan units with standard lasers were battle armor (small lasers only), vintage star league era mechs (like personally owned Orions which were presented as gifts since they were the personal mech of choice for good ol' all-father Kerensky), and proto mechs (again, small lasers only). When Wolf's Dragoons arrived in the inner sphere, while they showed up with pristine condition star league era mechs... they did so with the same weapons they were originally equipped with, not the clan improved versions. Again as I said..many times now...the clan SMALL PULSE LASER did 3 damage. The standard small laser did 3 damage. Only the Clan ER and Heavy versions did more damage in that size of laser.

Why is this so complicated for you to comprehend ?

I already edited my previous post. I concede. Dingus goes to me for reading heat for damage.
My sincere apologies.

[MovinTarget]

Vraun Hakkar, on 18 June 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

I don't know if this has already been posted... but relating to this line:
"Hero 'Mechs, Champion 'Mechs (and Trials), and other Special variants are not eligible for use in Competitive Play."

I don't think that champions or other equivalent "special" champions should be disallowed from competitive mode.
They are just the normal variants but with a c-bill bonus.

If I have a favorite mech that I want to use but it is a champion, am I now forced to buy the normal version just so that I can play it in competitive? I don't think this kind of scenario is fair. How were we supposed to know when we were buying these mechs that one day they would be disallowed?

If the c-bill bonus is the issue here, why not just nullify the c-bill bonus when such mechs are used in competitive mode?

First, i didn't think you could make cbills in comp mode, if so, don't .

Second, totally agree on owned champs and specials that have cbill equivalents, otherwise many of us get screwed on mech packs and bundles where 1/3 of the mechs are champion or special. Heck many of the old IS bundles would be unattractive having a hero and a champion right? Only 1 of the 3 would be comp legal.

Now heroes, yes they should stay illegal and trials... are trials, not comp...

[Dreadwing]

StormDll, on 17 June 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

А у меня больше возник вопрос по адекватности некоторых пользователей, а не разработчиков.
Почему эти дегенераты считают, что Кланы получат МРМ, тяжелый и легкий гаусс и короткий ППЦ? Что за говно у них в головах?

(Google translate say: "And I have more questions about the adequacy of some users, not developers.
Why do these degenerates think that the Clans will get an MPM, a heavy and light gauss and a short PPC? What the **** in their heads?")

I don't say that the clans should get all of that, I say that the clans should havegotten something else that is not lasers. More so since so many of the complaints about clans being op are about the clan lasers.

I'd remark about you making a post in russian where you insult others, but I'll skip writing more about it.

[No One Lives Forever]

Peiper, on 18 June 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

They balance stuff when they need to make it look like they're doing something with the game instead of adding maps and other content.

No, usually they "balance" before new mechs come out, so the new mechs quite often look more attractive. At least that was their strategy quite often in the past.

Edited by No One Lives Forever, 18 June 2017 - 12:09 PM.