439 replies to this topic

[Steinkrieg]

Which is why modeling the comp mode off of the most successful eSport game should be done.

[MovinTarget]

Steinkrieg, on 19 June 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

Which is why modeling the comp mode off of the most successful eSport game should be done.

I am not saying you are wrong, however, without knowing what similarities and differences there are between the games, I personally would be loathe to make simple generalizations.

[Dee Eight]

Steinkrieg, on 19 June 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

Besides all of the other malarkey in this patch, the banning of Champion and Hero mechs from Competitive play is ridiculous.

Its my understanding that the MRBC league already has such a rule, and that PGI is merely adopting their rules for the competitive mode.

[MovinTarget]

Dee Eight, on 19 June 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Its my understanding that the MRBC league already has such a rule, and that PGI is merely adopting their rules for the competitive mode.

But they aren't adoping MRBC rules. MRBC allows it if you can buy for cbills so you can drop in MRBC with (C), (S), or (L) variants as long as anyone can buy the mech for cbills.

•Hero 'Mechs, Champion 'Mechs (and Trials), and other Special variants are not eligible for use in Competitive Play.

MRBC would only ban the Heroes outright in this list, all others would be only banned in unavailable for Cbills.

Edited by MovinTarget, 19 June 2017 - 01:49 PM.

[Fryepod]

Championship season?? Time to come out of hiding once again. <3

[Meldric Ward]

Championship season is the one main thing that PGI offered to make people look away from the fact that the one major end-game content for a BattleTech game (as known as "Faction Warfare", or "Planetary League", call it names) is a non-functional, silly excuse of a gamemode that does not bother anyone the smallest bit! We can not even choose what planet to attack, it is completly useless and anti-interesting to fight in this invasion! Especially when Terra has been surrounded for MONTH and PGI comes around the corner with another "Battle of Tukayyid" at this point in the invasion. It is a matter of "I do not WANT to make this work, I have no interest in the franchise and the Background of this game" (despite of using it to advertise the game of course to bring in all the fans of the genre, just to tell them that this is "Counterstrike with Mechs" and "this game is not BattleTech at all" and "Lore sucks anyway!")... oh wait... PGI does not even have to tell me that! Its so obvious! They do not have to, because the community will tell those crazy idiots that came here because of BattleTech! We crazy fools, how could we expect any BattleTech content in a game like this? A game with this name? Stupid us, we should have known it, because it is obvious when even the "community" tells us to shut up and accept that this is not BattleTech! Never has been and never was intended to be... oh wait... really?

FW does not make any sense, there is no economy, no nothing (I do not want to repeat things that have been written a thousand times). FW should be End-Game Content. No need for a World Championship, if you would just get FW to represent SOMETHING after all, PGI. And if you do a WC, at least CALL it "Solaris"... just for the looks!

It is completely hopelessly lost and I can just hope that we will find a way to keep our clan together with one after the other turning their backs on this "BattleTech Game". I should stop posting, I know it does not change anything. Neither you PGI fanboys telling me to just shut up and adapt, nor you "comp" players who try to forget EVERYTHING that makes BattleTech BattleTech just for the sake of balance...

Did anyone ever wonder if a Mech can even have a skill? Yes? Well, Pilots could have skills... Mechs should have a "TechTree"... Surprise! And of course it never should be anything near as complicated as the "skillmaze" we got in this game. Well some people call this to be picky... I call it a question of immersion. And do not tell me that it would be expensive to be more immersive! It would not cost PGI a single dollar to wrap the whole "comp" stuff into a Solaris league... would it?

Ahhh, I did it again... time is wasted. No refund.

Edited by Meldric Ward, 19 June 2017 - 01:11 PM.

[Grinster]

Bush Hopper, on 17 June 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

That's your opinion. This map offers many routes and elevations and playstyles...oh wait...it is no snipefest map. Got you.

For those who do wall sniping it means less space to run around and more gap jumping required for re-positioning.

[Reno Blade]

Overall interesting patch.

I will comment on the energy balancing a bit.
Mostly OK changes.

I would prefere pulse lasers to be totally changed (e.g. totally short cd with low dmg/heat values to have a laser dakka weapon).

Some values are quite close to my suggestions, but I still feel that the isLP and cLP are overall better than the LL or ERLL.
Having the LL and ERLL using same cd and beam duration and only 1 heat difference... no use for the normal LL.

I think my suggestions would work better to define roles for each laser category...
quoting from my last update of my original balance suggestions (see also signature):

Reno Blade, on 10 June 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

UPDATED 2017-06-10:
- Updated laser values (less burn time, less heat for some clan lasers)
- Updated the Gauss values (added dmg and heat changes)
- Added graphs for PPC splash if using constant ratios

Laser updates (changes underlined):

SL 2.0s cd, 1.0s beam - 3dmg, 1.2 heat
erSL 2.5s cd, 1.2s beam - 3dmg, 2.2 heat
ML 3.0s cd, 1.2s beam - 5dmg, 3.6 heat
erML 3.5s cd, 1.4s beam - 5dmg, 4.6 heat
LL 4.0s cd, 1.4s beam - 8dmg, 6.0 heat
erLL 4.5s cd, 1.6s beam - 8dmg, 7.0 heat

cerSL 2.5s cd, 1.2s beam - 4dmg, 2.8 heat
cerML 3.5s cd, 1.4s beam - 6dmg, 5 heat
cerLL 4.5s cd, 1.6s beam - 9dmg, 8 heat

cHSL 4.0s cd, 1.5s beam - 6dmg, 4 heat
cHML 4.5s cd, 1.7s beam - 10dmg, 8 heat
cHLL 5.0s cd, 1.9s beam - 16dmg, 13 heat - Note: original heat is 18, but I rather go with longer burn for more skill required

SP, 1.0s cd, 0.6s beam - 1.4dmg, 1 heat
MP 1.5s cd, 0.7s beam - 2.8dmg, 2 heat
LP 2.0s cd, 0.8s beam - 4.5dmg, 3.4 heat

cSP 1.0s cd, 0.8s beam - 1.4dmg, 1.2 heat
cMP 1.5s cd, 0.9s beam - 2.8dmg, 2.4 heat
cLP 2.0s cd, 1.0s beam - 4.5dmg, 4 heat

cMicroPL 1.0s cd, 0.6s beam, 1dmg, 0.6heat


Gauss updates:

Gauss 15dmg, 3.5s cd, 2.0s charge, 2.0s charge hold, 3heat (+2)
Light Gauss 10dmg(+2), 3.0s cd, 1.5s charge, 1.5s charge hold, 2heat (+1)
Heavy Gauss 25dmg, 4.0s cd, 2.5s charge, 2.5s charge hold, 4heat (+2)


- Gauss/PPC can not be charged/fired at the same time
- Max 2xPPC or max 2x Gauss can be charged/fired at the same time
- When Charging Gauss all energy weapon reloading/fire is paused/prevented


PPC updates:
If using constant splash ratios, my suggestion would be this:



That way you get more total damage from HPPC and still can combine quite nicely the LPPC with the other types and also not making multiple LPPCs stronger than the other types (considering 2x LPPC would be 6+2+2 and normal PPC would be 8+1+1).

[BigScwerl]

I had initially began to document my disappointment, but really, this just about sums it up:

[zudukai]

PGI, can we please get the quirks and skill points to factor into the mech' stats?

we need to get the mechlab as transparent as possible, this would be a huge boost to the quality of life as a mechwarrior.

you would see far more people learning the mechlab positively if they knew what measurement was applied for what and how it's going to affect the whole picture. It's seriously a chore to manually calculate the differences after the skill tree modifications and would be appreciated by everyone from the beginner to veteran to try and streamline the process of making a build and honing the chassis, which is after all... the whole point to the mechlab. right?

[MovinTarget]

zudukai, on 19 June 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

PGI, can we please get the quirks and skill points to factor into the mech' stats?

we need to get the mechlab as transparent as possible, this would be a huge boost to the quality of life as a mechwarrior.

you would see far more people learning the mechlab positively if they knew what measurement was applied for what and how it's going to affect the whole picture. It's seriously a chore to manually calculate the differences after the skill tree modifications and would be appreciated by everyone from the beginner to veteran to try and streamline the process of making a build and honing the chassis, which is after all... the whole point to the mechlab. right?

If I understand what you are asking, you can already do that.

As long as you own the mech, you can build the loadout *AND* skill it out and without saving *ANY* changes, you can mouse over components and see how much of a bonus it is getting in various stats. So you can build hypothetically from scratch without spending a dime or skill point on changes until you like what you are getting.

You can also look at the mech's summary to get a total picture, again, without saving:

[Steinkrieg]

MovinTarget, on 19 June 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

I am not saying you are wrong, however, without knowing what similarities and differences there are between the games, I personally would be loathe to make simple generalizations.

Then broaden your horizons and look at other games that are successful in eSports with good comp play.

[KingKickAss85]

Oh my!!! Wish I had put money down on my own prediction here. I knew the big ol' NERF BAT would come from the depths of hell sooner vs. later. We have only ourselves to blame and I'll tell you why: We allowed PGI to open Pandora's Box with the whole skill maze update. Once you open the box, you can't really close it. Now we will enter an almost non-stop cycle of nerfing, buffing and "balancing" (I can use cool sounding words too PGI). This laser patch was completely unnecessary. Gonna go all LoreWarrior here for a sec, but it's not really a secret that Clan EVERYTHING is superior to IS tech. It is supposed to be that way. It makes them distinct from each other. For the Clans, greater firepower + longer ranges = more heat, longer durations and sometimes fixed loadouts. That is Lore. I am ok with that. In BattleTech Lore, the FedCom Civil War and all the new tech that gets introduced is what finally bridges the gap between the two sides. They become equal at that point. But to go and change damage values for core weapons systems that have been established since table top until the present, I will never forgive such heresy. All PGI has done now is effectively nerfed the Civil War patch before it's even out. They'll either dumb down everything released in the Civil War patch to be in line with this current mode of thinking, or leave it as is, but the problem there is that it is significantly more OP than running what we now currently have. Glad I never wasted the time skilling more than 1 mech in this whole debacle and I'm even more glad that I haven't played since the day the skill maze came out. Lotta folks out there with wasted skill points now with this doozey of a blindside patch. It's almost as if no one at PGI has ever become familiar with all the Lore and source material they so readily trample under their feet at any given time.

[Thrudvangar]

Again lots of tears and screams....

Fact is: everybody who's screaming now and likes the game will get
used to the layz0r changes as they've did it with the skilltree...

Ppl just dont like changes. I do understand screams against senseless
"Fixes" but be serious, the small pulsers are/were too strong.

And stop screaming: "MECH XXXX IS USELESS NOW BECAUSE I CANT MOUNT XX SMALL PULSERS ANYMORE" -> bulls.hit.
its just your lazyness or lack of whatever to make something useful out of it...instead of open youtube or
a website and watch a guys loadout and just copy it.

Edited by Thrudvangar, 19 June 2017 - 10:07 PM.

[ZortPointNarf]

KingKickAss85, on 19 June 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

Oh my!!! Wish I had put money down on my own prediction here. I knew the big ol' NERF BAT would come from the depths of hell sooner vs. later. We have only ourselves to blame and I'll tell you why: We allowed PGI to open Pandora's Box with the whole skill maze update. Once you open the box, you can't really close it. Now we will enter an almost non-stop cycle of nerfing, buffing and "balancing" (I can use cool sounding words too PGI). This laser patch was completely unnecessary. Gonna go all LoreWarrior here for a sec, but it's not really a secret that Clan EVERYTHING is superior to IS tech. It is supposed to be that way. It makes them distinct from each other. For the Clans, greater firepower + longer ranges = more heat, longer durations and sometimes fixed loadouts. That is Lore. I am ok with that. In BattleTech Lore, the FedCom Civil War and all the new tech that gets introduced is what finally bridges the gap between the two sides. They become equal at that point. But to go and change damage values for core weapons systems that have been established since table top until the present, I will never forgive such heresy. All PGI has done now is effectively nerfed the Civil War patch before it's even out. They'll either dumb down everything released in the Civil War patch to be in line with this current mode of thinking, or leave it as is, but the problem there is that it is significantly more OP than running what we now currently have. Glad I never wasted the time skilling more than 1 mech in this whole debacle and I'm even more glad that I haven't played since the day the skill maze came out. Lotta folks out there with wasted skill points now with this doozey of a blindside patch. It's almost as if no one at PGI has ever become familiar with all the Lore and source material they so readily trample under their feet at any given time.

<rant>
If you are not actively playing, you are theorycrafting. FFS guys, this is not table top, if you want TT, go play it and drown your models in salty tears (I wonder if the paint will peel?). The simple fact is that constant tweaking is needed, Star Craft 2, is a prime example, the moment a build became so meta or showed itself to be OP, it got the Nerfbat. That is how you adjust for balance, some things get buffed, others get nerfed, evaluate, iterate. If you are too dense to comprehend that, then maybe this game isn't for you.
This constant, PGI don't know what they are doing saga is getting really old. I do not agree with everything they do, and I state it, but the only way for them to improve the game is to make changes. It's rather funny people always say they are only out to sell mech packs, but when they make changes to the game balance then they are defecating in the holy chapel that is BT. It's a fictional universe, with fictional rules. MWO has players in the real world, where players have real experiences, the game has been been inspired by TT and more importantly the universe, but the same rules can not apply. If you can not accept that, wait till BT releases and go play that instead. I will be playing both, for different reasons.</rant>

Edited by ZortPointNarf, 19 June 2017 - 10:12 PM.

[Genesis23]

KingKickAss85, on 19 June 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

This laser patch was completely unnecessary. Gonna go all LoreWarrior here for a sec, but it's not really a secret that Clan EVERYTHING is superior to IS tech. It is supposed to be that way. It makes them distinct from each other. For the Clans, greater firepower + longer ranges = more heat, longer durations and sometimes fixed loadouts. That is Lore.

from a game standpoint, such a small weapon with such high damage was complete stupidity. whoever thought buffing the cspl from 4.4 to 6 in one step should really not be in a position to make these decisions.

if you want to go with lore, sure youre right. everything clan has is better. but if you go there, you also need to take all the other factors into calculation:

- the sheer number of IS pilots that should overwhelm the clans (as much as i remeber its something 1:4?) at elast sometimes. but thats not possible because clans are just too good overall and too easy to play so almost everyone plays them either exclusively or for most of the time and because the game engine doesnt allow asymetric matchmaking or something

- maps that allow dirty tactics and ambushes. yes, on some maps this is possible and very effective. but fact is, that IS had to fight with guerilla warfare to combat the clans, while we ingame often dont have the possibilities to do so.


and one more thing: where were you loretards when the cspl got buffed beyond reason when pulse lasers in general work completely differently in lore? youre a bunch of hyporcrites, nothing more.

Edited by Genesis23, 19 June 2017 - 10:54 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Meldric Ward, on 19 June 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Did anyone ever wonder if a Mech can even have a skill? Yes? Well, Pilots could have skills... Mechs should have a "TechTree"... Surprise!

Damnit! I did not pay attention to this, but now that you have pointed it out, my OCD will not let me forget it. I too am perplexed by how an inanimate BattleMech can have "skills". I agree that it should be renamed "Mods" or "Tweaks" or something along those lines.

[NocturnalBeast]

Genesis23, on 19 June 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

and one more thing: where were you loretards when the cspl got buffed beyond reason when pulse lasers in general work completely differently in lore? youre a bunch of hyporcrites, nothing more.

I love Clans in lore, but I would much rather have seen MWO stay in the 3025 / Fourth Succession War era with no clans, or lostech. If only PGI had been able to secure the rights for the unseen mechs earlier, then they could have made enough profit selling those that they would not have to introduce the Clans. But, the genie is out of the bottle now, no putting it back in.

Also..."loretards"? I have been moderated for less.

Edited by Ed Steele, 19 June 2017 - 11:39 PM.

[zudukai]

MovinTarget, on 19 June 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

You can also look at the mech's summary to get a total picture, again, without saving:

yes and no, it's not a total picture, nor is every stat listed in a given measurement, heat efficiency is the primary stat i would argue for that is missing updates after quirks and skills get added.

[Aramuside]

Steinkrieg, on 19 June 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

No. Mechs are bought with the understanding that all mechs you bought would be available for all play modes. All play modes need to have all mechs available that a player owns. Trial mechs would not be considered because the player has not bought them. For the life of me I will never understand why PGI does not look at other popular comp games like LoL and just steal what they are doing.

That's patently untrue. I have every past hero in game and at no point do I ever consider I can use a IS hero mech in a clan drop deck or vice versa. For the last rotation I've been aligned to IS and completely unable to use any Clan mech at all in Faction warfare. Ultimately PGI decide what can and cannot be used, in this case they've clearly decided the events should be standard mechs only. Whether you agree or not try not to spout totally incorrect information.