90 replies to this topic

[l33tworks]

I see a lot of complaining but I think the changes make a lot of sense.

Lets get real CSPL was OP. You could too easily just ruin anyone with a near pinpoint lightweight ammo free high damage weapon and do it over and over again all game.

IS Medium laser for too hot for what it did. Now its cooler. Good change

I see complaining about Clan medium laser needlessly nerfed, but if you think about it its still a its a good all around weapon after the changes and for sure before it was too GOOD of a weapon. The increased cool down and duration means its still a top vomit weapon at low to medium range but not as good as SRMs or big ballistics in a brawling situation, AS it SHOULD be. So now its still almost as good as before, but not if you are pushed due to decreased dps and increased burn time, and thats how it should be.

So what changes are exactly so horrific to warrant the uproar?


I will say though the quirk changes like a ballistic King Crab getting LRM quirks is DUMB AS. But the energy changes are sensible IMO.

Edited by l33tworks, 17 June 2017 - 07:12 PM.

[FupDup]

A few things:

1. The IS SL got barely any buff at all, implying that PGI feels the weapon is mostly fine as it is. This is probably the reason why they nerfed every small-class laser except this one (see below).

2. The IS SPL got nerfed, too, even though it was relatively "meh" by most accounts.

3. The IS LL also got nerfed for some inexplicable reason.

4. The CSPL nerf was too heavy-handed, and will result in the weapon disappearing for a while. The CERSL and CMPL are going to directly replace it, at least until those get nerfed themselves (CERSL got hit in the patch but it still beats the new CSPL).

5. In general, PGI's new idea of "pulse lasers as DPS" is not going to work when they nerf the damage by 1-2 and shave off 0.25 seconds of reload time. They're going to have to go whole hog with both faster cooldown and lower upfront damage if they want to pull it off. The new "DPS pulse" lasers still have the same overall role and playstyle as pre-patch pulses do, just with weaker stats (except the MPL, those got buffed on both sides).

[Brain Cancer]

Slashing a third of the damage off the primary brawl/light weapon for Clanners in the game was a mite drastic in one go. Especially since lights really don't have the tonnage to sit there strapping on piles of ammo-eating weapons,much less a big ballistic one. It fundamentally mauls Clan infighting builds in a way you can't really compensate for, because six SPLs are now worth the equivalent of four.

I'm betting it's an attempt to fit in Clan HSL and Micros into the close combat types, but since those aren't around yet, there's not much choice for stuff like Arctic Cheetahs or even beasts like the Nova.

[Mcgral18]

The cSPL was powerful, and could have used a nerf


What they did was make it into an isSPL
An isSPL which was already underpowered


Then they nerfed the isSPL


That is the mindboggling decision we have to work through
They used the absolutely TErribad isSL as a Small series laser baseline...the isSL which has been worthless for 5 years, yet is still suffering from doubled heat (sorry, 170% heat)

Their changes don't affect that, they just ruin just about every Small series laser as a useful weapon system, bringing it from 2/4 down to maybe 1/4


It would have been better to make that 3/4 or 4/4, with a moderate cSPL nerf and buff the balls out of the isSL and isSPL
They did not do that.

[MechaBattler]

I was honestly hoping they would just buff the IS SPL. But I'm not surprised they would nerf the C SPL.

I'm more surprised they would use the IS SL as the baseline for adjusting all of them. Who the hell uses an IS SL in all seriousness? Not counting in builds where they're used to raise up the placement of better weapons, like on the Banshee 3M.

But I'm willing to see how it shakes out.

[Mole]

I honestly am not worried about it. I'm sure my Locust and Arctic Cheetah and whathaveyou will be fine.

[Snowbluff]

The cSPL nerf is simply too much of a change. Whether or not it's better than the IS version, it's probably dead. Mechs where I used them as back up weapons will get them replaced by cERSL because they simply have better range, damage, heat...

The IS ML got a nice buff. That makes me happy because I use them with my Pirate's bane. 4 ML was kind of hot, but 15% heat improvement is swell.

Honestly it probably is an overall better balance between IS and Clan. While some IS stuff got nerfed, I think the clan nerfs are more significant.

[Angel of Annihilation]

l33tworks, on 17 June 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

I see a lot of complaining but I think the changes make a lot of sense.

Lets get real CSPL was OP. You could too easily just ruin anyone with a near pinpoint lightweight ammo free high damage weapon and do it over and over again all game.

IS Medium laser for too hot for what it did. Now its cooler. Good change

I see complaining about Clan medium laser needlessly nerfed, but if you think about it its still a its a good all around weapon after the changes and for sure before it was too GOOD of a weapon. The increased cool down and duration means its still a top vomit weapon at low to medium range but not as good as SRMs or big ballistics in a brawling situation, AS it SHOULD be. So now its still almost as good as before, but not if you are pushed due to decreased dps and increased burn time, and thats how it should be.

So what changes are exactly so horrific to warrant the uproar?


I will say though the quirk changes like a ballistic King Crab getting LRM quirks is DUMB AS. But the energy changes are sensible IMO.

Truth be told, the Energy re-balance isn't bothering me as much as the upcoming nerfs to the Marauder IIC and the Night Gyr. I am not a huge fan of the Night Gyr and never have been but I throughly enjoy the Marauder IIC because it is one of the few fast and agile Assault mechs in the game. It almost makes me sick to know they are going to give it the Direwhale treatment when it already got such a huge mobility nerf from the Engine DeSync in the first place. Also I don't think it very fair to make the already ridiculously poor agility of the Night Gyr even worse. I mean its a heavy mech so why should it have worse agility than 90% of the Assault mechs.

There just has to be a better way to balance then making something so bad no one wants to play them any more.

Back on the topic of the energy re-balance though, don't you think it a tad ridiculous for them to increase the beam duration on the CER ML though? I mean people quit using C ERLLs when they reached 1.25 for the beam duration because it was so bad. When you consider the medium laser is by far the most important weapon be it Clan or IS, and that 1.25 was considered so bad on ER LL that 90% of the people quit mounting then, then what they hell are the Clan supposed to use in its place??

[rustyrat]

IS ll doesnt need nerf... Its pretty bad all things cosidered. Just try 3lpl ml vomit build in contrast to 5ll. Check damage, kilz & lp gained.

[Davegt27]

if you go into a meeting and the boss asks you what are you doing about balance of the game

it wont take you to long to figure out the deal and you will soon come up with all kinds of crazy stuff

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Viktor Drake, on 17 June 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

Truth be told, the Energy re-balance isn't bothering me as much as the upcoming nerfs to the Marauder IIC and the Night Gyr. I am not a huge fan of the Night Gyr and never have been but I throughly enjoy the Marauder IIC because it is one of the few fast and agile Assault mechs in the game. It almost makes me sick to know they are going to give it the Direwhale treatment when it already got such a huge mobility nerf from the Engine DeSync in the first place. Also I don't think it very fair to make the already ridiculously poor agility of the Night Gyr even worse. I mean its a heavy mech so why should it have worse agility than 90% of the Assault mechs.

There just has to be a better way to balance then making something so bad no one wants to play them any more.

Back on the topic of the energy re-balance though, don't you think it a tad ridiculous for them to increase the beam duration on the CER ML though? I mean people quit using C ERLLs when they reached 1.25 for the beam duration because it was so bad. When you consider the medium laser is by far the most important weapon be it Clan or IS, and that 1.25 was considered so bad on ER LL that 90% of the people quit mounting then, then what they hell are the Clan supposed to use in its place??

We at least aren't at the old CERLL value of 1.5 seconds, only 1.25, which is what the IS ERLL was. Still its a pretty bad hit. I think what they are really doing is bringing the values back to what they were pre skill tree. You cut off 10% with full clan duration boosts and the CERML is back down to 1.125, 0.025 seconds shorter than it is currently without the duration tree.

So basically just fill out the skill tree and it will be like we never even had the skill tree. Meanwhile we'll just lose trades to IS mechs even worse with them having much better durations, quirks, and damage per heat ratios ontop of having super armor. IS is really looking like the faction to be come the drop of new tech, especially with this kind of balance going on.

[DAYLEET]

IS SL change is pointless. Heat was not a problem. I did the chalenge with 8 on a FS9, i never once thought "if it didnt run so hot".

Edited by DAYLEET, 17 June 2017 - 08:09 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

I'm actually ok with the C-ERML changes, cause it's practically a 1-ton IS-LL for Clans, that works well with mid-range dakka builds. Compare that to Large Laser + UAC5s of the IS. And then we get to the Laser Vomit builds.



As for the Small Pulses, it's that PGI's idea of "DPS" weapons -- i don't like how they went with it. I agree on rounding them out with the entire series of small lasers, but over all the pulse lasers should have a leg up over the ER and Standard lasers due to being just flat out heavy. What they did is completely defined the role, with near equal give-and-take, but the problem is that the Small-Pulse weighs twice as much, so the nerf that puts them near-equal overall-power to the other type of lasers just ruined it for us.

Why use one weapon, when another is lighter but equally powerful at it's own way?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 June 2017 - 06:15 AM.

[Tarogato]

l33tworks, on 17 June 2017 - 07:12 PM, said:

I see a lot of complaining but I think the changes make a lot of sense.

Lets get real CSPL was OP. You could too easily just ruin anyone with a near pinpoint lightweight ammo free high damage weapon and do it over and over again all game.

IS Medium laser for too hot for what it did. Now its cooler. Good change

I see complaining about Clan medium laser needlessly nerfed, but if you think about it its still a its a good all around weapon after the changes and for sure before it was too GOOD of a weapon. The increased cool down and duration means its still a top vomit weapon at low to medium range but not as good as SRMs or big ballistics in a brawling situation, AS it SHOULD be. So now its still almost as good as before, but not if you are pushed due to decreased dps and increased burn time, and thats how it should be.

So what changes are exactly so horrific to warrant the uproar?


I will say though the quirk changes like a ballistic King Crab getting LRM quirks is DUMB AS. But the energy changes are sensible IMO.

Let's see...

We'll take the IS small pulse laser, a weapon that almost never gets used... and let's increase its heat by 35%, increase its duration by 20%, and put a ghost heat cap of 6. Just so that we can get more range out of it.

That's what the new Clan small pulse is. And you think that's going to go over well?

Oh, and then they also nerfed the IS small pulse itself by 4% DPS and 12% heat. Which made no sense, because there were hardly any mechs that could even use that weapon, and none of them were over performing compared to alternative loadouts.

And then they looked at the IS small laser, gave it 0.3 heat back and called it a buff. Some rebalance work there. Small laser now so useful!

And then they nerfed the cERPPC and noted that it should improve balance between Clan and IS versions of PPCs. Without realising that the reason people ignore the IS versions is not because the Clan versions are too strong, it's because the IS version are shjt.

And you think people aren't gonna complain about that?

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Clan smalls are/were useful because they filled the close range niche that Clan mediums were too hot for... but IS smalls never had a niche to begin with because ML/MPL are just fine as close range weapons. SPL could work as a low-heat alternative on fast striker lights, but for that to work the builds had to be equivalent (8xSPL+2DHS for 5xMPL, or 6xSPL+2DHS for 4xMPL). Take any damage away at all and the replacement builds don't work anymore.

There is nothing the IS has that can make a 3.5 damage laser a credible threat. Even at 4 damage, SPL was pretty terrible; only a light with a bunch of E hardpoints and a high top speed could use it effectively. Since all of the 6+ energy 35-tonners were murdered by the rescale, that really only left the LCT-1E. One whole 'Mech. On anything 40 tons and up, it was always better to use ML or MPL if you were going to pick a single weapon to boat. SPL was strictly a tonnage filler on mediums and up except for a handful of lulzy trollmechs.

So, an already marginal gun got a damage nerf. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict what happens next.

This is not a game where backup weapons are a terribly useful concept to begin with. There are no soft targets to use them on, they have neither the range nor the damage to contribute in most fights, and they generally have no synergy with anything.

DPS is not a useful niche for a weapon that requires you to be well within the effective range of SRMs and AC20 to use. Nobody with three functioning brain cells to rub together will ever pick a laser DPS build with a max range under 200m. Lasers in general make a poor choice for DPS because they do not have any other advantages to mitigate the risks of high-facetime gameplay, even with decent range... even the lasers that are theoretically capable of matching dakka for DPS (pre-patch LPL sits at 2.81) aren't used that way. You need a significant advantage in range, heat, or screen shake- preferably all three- to be effective against burst alpha builds that can roll damage while you're forced to stare.

Any attempt PGI makes to force lasers into a DPS role will end in failure, and the weapons will be abandoned until their stats are changed back to permit higher burst damage again. Small pulse will go extinct because of this patch.

[l33tworks]

Don't have time to reply to everything one by one but I will say on the IS side, a lot of the points raised here as to the missing gaps of IS laser performance will be filled by the new tech coming next month.

[The6thMessenger]

l33tworks, on 17 June 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

Don't have time to reply to everything one by one but I will say on the IS side, a lot of the points raised here as to the missing gaps of IS laser performance will be filled by the new tech coming next month.

I fail to see how that would be a good argument. If the new tech is supposed to balance the changes, then have the changes come out when the new tech arrives, instead of making the player-base suffer the disbalance.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 June 2017 - 10:22 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Didn't you know, apparently this place is swarming with game developers that have built and/or worked on projects similar to MWO, and who know all of the exact balance methods that would please 100% of people 100% of the time. Too bad PGI doesn't hire them right? Everything would be perfect if they just hired one of these genius voices of our generation. /s

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 17 June 2017 - 10:28 PM.

[CK16]

Honestly if I was Chris right now I would just ignore the forums, and especially Reddit for the next 2 to 3 weeks....let the "I hate PGI touching my stuff!" rants calm down then see what the feel is. It is no secert on here meta followers hate change usually, specially nerfs to there metabuilds.

Relax honestly atleast they gave us reasons let's see how they play out.

Edited by CK16, 17 June 2017 - 10:32 PM.

[Kalleballe]

Nerf SPL, buff lrm and ams. Sounds like Lights are no longer wanted and yet another play style disappears.