131 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

pyrocomp, on 20 June 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Nope, unless you happen to move lateral to the shooter which is 90 degrees to the direction to close the distance and engage that mech. And the player that is good with this build knows how to select targets and do not shoot those whom he have to lead significantly.
Note, being static makes you prone against any weapon. And it's not the problem.

Lol, we can jump in a private lobby tonight and you can show me how I can't roll damage while you shoot me with PPC Gauss, or you can admit that you are full of ****.

You literally say that the solution is "oh don't shoot the mech that isn't static", well what if he is shooting you?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 20 June 2017 - 02:23 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 June 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Lol, we can jump in a private lobby tonight and you can show me how I can't roll damage while you shoot me with PPC Gauss, or you can admit that you are full of ****.

You literally say that the solution is "oh don't shoot the mech that isn't static", well what if he is shooting you?

Chill. The answer is that it's sometimes unavoidable to get under fire in unfavorable conditions and while other wepons allow rolling damage to some extent the single projectile ones do not. So while I do not see the twin GR as current game ruinning obstacle, I can see why they offend people. Plus, I am notoriusly not good with gauss. I prefer lesser range.

However, the offer to have some good practice is tempting.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Clan tech as it is - is a mistake because of it's OP.

And yet, PGI keeps trying to balance the impossible 1:1.

Even Catalyst wasn't that obtuse and simply accepted Clantech as higher tier equipment rather than trying to squeeze it into the same cubbyhole as IS stuff. A Clan 50 tonner can and will be built better than an IS one. PGI refuses to accept this and keeps trying to make the biggest mismatch in Battletech fit together.

The only way it could have worked was mixtech, which would basically invalidate half the gear in the game, as having all access automatically would equal balance, as there would be only one tech tree. Or you could have separated the two trees from playing against each other. Again, balance. Or you could have figured out some kind of BV style ranking and rewarded/penalized income and exp accordingly. More complex, balance possible but difficult.

We got a hot mess instead.

[Gas Guzzler]

pyrocomp, on 20 June 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

Chill. The answer is that it's sometimes unavoidable to get under fire in unfavorable conditions and while other wepons allow rolling damage to some extent the single projectile ones do not. So while I do not see the twin GR as current game ruinning obstacle, I can see why they offend people. Plus, I am notoriusly not good with gauss. I prefer lesser range.

However, the offer to have some good practice is tempting.

Well that's another side of it too... its harder to hit what you want to hit consistently with PPFLD projectiles than it is with lasers.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gauss breaks things period. How many times must we see Gauss be a prominent part of the meta because of its consistent DPS regardless of heat before we actually address the problem (the fact it breaks the heat system) rather than slap band-aid after band-aid on the weapon?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 20 June 2017 - 02:45 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 June 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Gauss breaks things period. How many times must we see Gauss be a prominent part of the meta because of its consistent DPS regardless of heat before we actually address the problem (the fact it breaks the heat system) rather than slap band-aid after band-aid on the weapon?

Well that would definitely limit the mechs that can effectively do dual gauss dual PPC to just the DIre/KDK, don't think anything else could bring enough DHS.

Whether that is good or not.. well that's an opinion.

[Grus]

I guess quad gauss isn't an issue... *pats his KDK-3* I told you they like you.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 June 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Well that's another side of it too... its harder to hit what you want to hit consistently with PPFLD projectiles than it is with lasers.

Also true. But when a single hit is cripling then it is another set of issues (2GR+PPC = 45 dmg = ST loss from behind). Noone argues that IS UAC5s are a notorious offender yet those can dish insane damage. Anyway, lasers however they might be easier to use to some players at least give the impresiion (and hope) to roll the damage. An option. So they are not seen as fun spoliers. And thus it's simplier to have those in game. cUACs have a burst, missiles spread, LBX spread. So high damage single projectile weapons are percieved as game breaking. But I think this is an N-th iteration of the same `pinpoint' thread under another disguise.

PS: However, I'll keep your offer for a session in mind.

[D R E A D N A U G H T]

But aren't we talking about balance? The trade off is that, as others have mentioned, gauss weighs more than most weapons, takes up more space, has less health and can explode. Given the amount of space it takes up to mount them, usually in a torso, means that the chance it will be critically hit is rather high. The pilot is making a decision to be "frail" in order to do damage, usually at range, without heat.

Toss in the fact that the pilot has to charge, and time the shot properly, along with the fact that damage drop off happens after 660 meters. Snipers from across the map at 1000+ meters can be laughed at. The damage potential at that range is negligible, and to get closer only means you are upping your chance to significantly impact a gauss wielders day. Use cover to get close and then pop the gauss location. usually youll not only pop the gauss, but also ammo, other weapons and equipment. If you're really lucky and the target has IS XL youll probably kill them.

[Gas Guzzler]

pyrocomp, on 20 June 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

Also true. But when a single hit is cripling then it is another set of issues (2GR+PPC = 45 dmg = ST loss from behind). Noone argues that IS UAC5s are a notorious offender yet those can dish insane damage. Anyway, lasers however they might be easier to use to some players at least give the impresiion (and hope) to roll the damage. An option. So they are not seen as fun spoliers. And thus it's simplier to have those in game. cUACs have a burst, missiles spread, LBX spread. So high damage single projectile weapons are percieved as game breaking. But I think this is an N-th iteration of the same `pinpoint' thread under another disguise.

PS: However, I'll keep your offer for a session in mind.

Yeah it is, but... as someone who runs dual gauss in shoulders sometimes, 6 cSPL to the rear ST from an ACH can also be a real fun spoiler..

[Brain Cancer]

I've always said the Gauss rifle should be treated like a sniper rifle. Long cooldown. Really long. Like, seven seconds at least. It should have a glacial fire rate to go with it's glacial heat load and everything else.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 June 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

Well that would definitely limit the mechs that can effectively do dual gauss dual PPC to just the DIre/KDK, don't think anything else could bring enough DHS.

Whether that is good or not.. well that's an opinion.

I don't know if it would be that bad, but probably. Keep in mind this would also remove the need for the 2 Gauss charge limit, the fragility issue, etc which means more mechs could do Gauss and run it safely.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 June 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

Yeah it is, but... as someone who runs dual gauss in shoulders sometimes, 6 cSPL to the rear ST from an ACH can also be a real fun spoiler..

After this patch it's most probably 4cMLs or 6cERSL (have to drop more to decide). And yes, those ACH and JN7-IIC are the reason why I prefer 4xcUAC10s. But again, those need to get close.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 June 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

I don't know if it would be that bad, but probably. Keep in mind this would also remove the need for the 2 Gauss charge limit, the fragility issue, etc which means more mechs could do Gauss and run it safely.

IS mechs definitely can't take the extra heat (they have to make do with 12-13 DHS as it is, looking at the Nightstar and Sleipnir), and the Boiler/MAD-IIC-C are at ~15-16 DHS and already run pretty hot. Maybe it would be workable?

But yeah.. I guess opening up those other issues makes it a much more drastic change. I'd be interested to see where that landed... but chances are that's not gonna happen.

I don't feel like its THAT dominant right now, but admittedly my participation in this last season of MRBC was pretty weak.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 June 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

I don't feel like its THAT dominant right now, but admittedly my participation in this last season of MRBC was pretty weak.

The fact the Night Gyr was so dominant despite it being on the slow side was pretty telling of just how powerful it can be.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 June 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

The fact the Night Gyr was so dominant despite it being on the slow side was pretty telling of just how powerful it can be.

Well slow speed is part of dual gauss/ER PPC builds, so I would consider those two hand in hand, and the Night Gyr also has the 4 JJs and good hardpoint heights going for it. Its definitely the best heavy at its range bracket. But the assault class seems like a mixed bag right now.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 June 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

The fact the Night Gyr was so dominant despite it being on the slow side was pretty telling of just how powerful it can be.

I don't think that's just PPC+Gauss, I think that's PPC+Gauss and the ability to pop-tart. If it was stuck on the ground, it would not be anywhere near as potent with it.

I said it in that debate we had about pop-tarting: the ability for heavily armored 'Mechs to sling large salvos long distances via pop-tarting paralyzes the game. That has remained true at every point in MWO's history, and it will remain true until they implement something to curb it (i.e. lingering reticle shake whose duration scales by 'Mech mass, dramatically longer firing intervals, shorter burns on lasers, etc.). Whether or not we enjoy playing that way has no bearing on it.

[Grus]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 June 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Gauss breaks things period. How many times must we see Gauss be a prominent part of the meta because of its consistent DPS regardless of heat before we actually address the problem (the fact it breaks the heat system) rather than slap band-aid after band-aid on the weapon?

why does this smell like the same complaint a lot of people have about Lrms. Seems a different yet familiar oder...

[Maxor]

I'm surprised not many people in all the years have proposed to just make it so gauss and ppc cant be fired at the same time. Basically add .25-.5 internal CD between the 2 weapon types and blam you just fixed gauss/ppc builds.

Its either that or add a minimum range to ppcs and gauss so then they at least suck at close range.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 June 2017 - 03:58 PM, said:

I don't think that's just PPC+Gauss, I think that's PPC+Gauss and the ability to pop-tart. If it was stuck on the ground, it would not be anywhere near as potent with it.

While I agree, it would still be one of the most prominent heavies simply because of its firepower and ability to maintain that DPS in push scenarios.