50 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Ruar, on 19 June 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

Not really. What it will do is just kick the ball down the road until LRMs are truly changed so they are meaningful without being OP. "OP... how can you say OP... *standard rebuttal about LRMs being crap and not used in competitive play*". Oh, and there's all the counters to keep LRMs even somewhat reasonable. I mean, if they were crap why have all the counters every LRM user likes to complain about?

i dont think increasing the Velocity by 50%(240m/s) or so i dont think would make them op,
i think its more people dont like getting shot by those they cant see, which is why the hate,

Ruar, on 19 June 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

Any boost to LRMs right now boosts their ability to home on a target 900m away. Combine this with multiple LRM boats and you have dramatically strong indirect capability. Increase velocity just makes that ability worse while not doing enough to make direct fire worth using.

yes but its harder to Balance (Multiply Boats),
one could say having several LRM boats is OP, and they should be Nerfed, so Nerf Teamwork?
one could also say several AMS boats are OP, and they should be Nerfed, so Nerf Teamwork?
as both perceptions of being OP are based on the team, we need to look at them per Player,

if this Change makes LRMs Too Powerful then their cooldown can be increased,
make the Cooldown to 10 seconds and i doubt people will complain about too much rain,
at least then after the Rain you know you have time to move,

Ruar, on 19 June 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

So please, just stop with the band aid propositions because they are short term changes which will skew the game and create long term problems.

The only discussion should be about the long term solution of how to make LRMs effective at direct fire while being capable of indirect fire. That's it. Anything else is just making the game worse.

people cant agree on how LRMs should be Buffed,
many feel they should be amazing at LOS fire but much less so at Indirect fire,
many feel they should be amazing at Indirect fire but much less so at LOS fire,

a Rework of LRMs i do feel is needed, but if thats 6 months off are you willing to leave LRMs Broken for that time?
are you willing to ignore something that broken because someday it may get fixed so we shouldnt touch it?

i cant agree to that, i think a bandaid needs to be applied to stop LRMs from Bleeding out,
theirs no reason to make LRMs better wail waiting for a rework, i would rather have them useful wail we wait,

[dario03]

Nah, we already had a mini-lurmageddon when they increased them that one time.

But more importantly, they need more than a simple buff, they need a rework (ssrms too).

[Ruar]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

i dont think increasing the Velocity by 50%(240m/s) or so i dont think would make them op,
i think its more people dont like getting shot by those they cant see, which is why the hate,


yes but its harder to Balance (Multiply Boats),
one could say having several LRM boats is OP, and they should be Nerfed, so Nerf Teamwork?
one could also say several AMS boats are OP, and they should be Nerfed, so Nerf Teamwork?
as both perceptions of being OP are based on the team, we need to look at them per Player,

if this Change makes LRMs Too Powerful then their cooldown can be increased,
make the Cooldown to 10 seconds and i doubt people will complain about too much rain,
at least then after the Rain you know you have time to move,


people cant agree on how LRMs should be Buffed,
many feel they should be amazing at LOS fire but much less so at Indirect fire,
many feel they should be amazing at Indirect fire but much less so at LOS fire,

a Rework of LRMs i do feel is needed, but if thats 6 months off are you willing to leave LRMs Broken for that time?
are you willing to ignore something that broken because someday it may get fixed so we shouldnt touch it?

i cant agree to that, i think a bandaid needs to be applied to stop LRMs from Bleeding out,
theirs no reason to make LRMs better wail waiting for a rework, i would rather have them useful wail we wait,

How much is too broken?

The best thing that can happen is LRMs bleed out. Then they will get fixed. Especially since we have months of weapon balancing happening with the release of the new tech. I want LRMs to be an effective weapon, but they suck to use if you like to maneuver and assault. Great if you like to hide behind everyone and farm c-bills. Sadly the LRM farming kinda ruins most everyone else's match.

Fix em once, the right way, and stop the iterative crap. It just doesn't help.

[Brain Cancer]

Ruar, on 19 June 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

Not really. What it will do is just kick the ball down the road until LRMs are truly changed so they are meaningful without being OP. "OP... how can you say OP... *standard rebuttal about LRMs being crap and not used in competitive play*". Oh, and there's all the counters to keep LRMs even somewhat reasonable. I mean, if they were crap why have all the counters every LRM user likes to complain about?

Because literally screaming noobs. No weapon system has been bollixed to the point of becoming a nuclear armageddon more often than the LRM, and no weapon gets counter-nerfed harder than the LRM either.

This is a weapon system that PGI managed to "test" so changes so poorly that it's literally become a head-shattering, torso-splattering bugfest on live multiple times. It almost managed to get a 1000% reduction in cooldown past test, but thankfully someone noticed and it only because the subject of some amusing videos.

Oh, and it kills newbies slowly enough that they get to realize what smooshed them, unlike a few surgical LPL/ML strikes to the torso. And it does it in a confusing manner since often enough, they're the only ones slow enough to be bombed to death by mega-scattering lurmsplatter. So they get salty. Actual, experienced players just laugh: Getting melted in the rain is either a Polar-level derp, the power of NARC teamwork, or horrid bad skills because the LRM is the worst thing for actually killing someone with any level of alacrity.

Quote

Any boost to LRMs right now boosts their ability to home on a target 900m away. Combine this with multiple LRM boats and you have dramatically strong indirect capability. Increase velocity just makes that ability worse while not doing enough to make direct fire worth using.

Of course it does. Heaven help us that a weapon is actually accurate inside it's stated range.

And could you stop having flashbacks to when someone put a gold ammo round through the top of your T6's turret on WoT? LRM damage is inefficient at killing someone. Even when it CAN hit something.

Quote

So please, just stop with the band aid propositions because they are short term changes which will skew the game and create long term problems.

The only discussion should be about the long term solution of how to make LRMs effective at direct fire while being capable of indirect fire. That's it. Anything else is just making the game worse.

LRMs are currently ineffective at direct fire and barely less ineffective at indirect fire, mostly cause they have no competition on the latter. But please, keep having nightmares about rolling artillery barrages in the form of MUH LURMS (oh wait, airstrikes on hills. That's more effective IDF right now than LRMs!) and kindly stop trying to make them into poor SRM clones. Or perhaps MRMs. Or maybe ATMs.

You know, all the direct-fire only missile launchers.

[Ruar]

Brain Cancer, on 19 June 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Because literally screaming noobs. No weapon system has been bollixed to the point of becoming a nuclear armageddon more often than the LRM, and no weapon gets counter-nerfed harder than the LRM either.

This is a weapon system that PGI managed to "test" so changes so poorly that it's literally become a head-shattering, torso-splattering bugfest on live multiple times. It almost managed to get a 1000% reduction in cooldown past test, but thankfully someone noticed and it only because the subject of some amusing videos.

Oh, and it kills newbies slowly enough that they get to realize what smooshed them, unlike a few surgical LPL/ML strikes to the torso. And it does it in a confusing manner since often enough, they're the only ones slow enough to be bombed to death by mega-scattering lurmsplatter. So they get salty. Actual, experienced players just laugh: Getting melted in the rain is either a Polar-level derp, the power of NARC teamwork, or horrid bad skills because the LRM is the worst thing for actually killing someone with any level of alacrity.



Of course it does. Heaven help us that a weapon is actually accurate inside it's stated range.

And could you stop having flashbacks to when someone put a gold ammo round through the top of your T6's turret on WoT? LRM damage is inefficient at killing someone. Even when it CAN hit something.



LRMs are currently ineffective at direct fire and barely less ineffective at indirect fire, mostly cause they have no competition on the latter. But please, keep having nightmares about rolling artillery barrages in the form of MUH LURMS (oh wait, airstrikes on hills. That's more effective IDF right now than LRMs!) and kindly stop trying to make them into poor SRM clones. Or perhaps MRMs. Or maybe ATMs.

You know, all the direct-fire only missile launchers.

Again with the "you don't like LRM'S so it must mean they touched you in a bad place" fallacy. It's not true and does nothing for your argument other than make you look foolish.

As for direct fire, go ahead and tell me an effective direct fire long range missile option in the game
I'll wait.

Edited by Ruar, 19 June 2017 - 09:51 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

dario03, on 19 June 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

Nah, we already had a mini-lurmageddon when they increased them that one time.

But more importantly, they need more than a simple buff, they need a rework (ssrms too).

Currently, with nodes, LRMs have 176 velocity.

That's precisely +1 more than the number that had endless noobs screaming LURMAGEDDON!!!1!!ONE!ELEVENTY!

It isn't happening. Like Ron Paul in a Presidental Primary not happening. Because it never really was even a mini-lurmageddon. People were just stunned at LRMs not floating in quite as lazy an arc, what with them hitting a quarter of the velocity of an AC/20 shell in what seemed to be blistering speed. They actually didn't miss most of the time outside 300 meters!

This was regarded with great barking from the seals in the clubbing pit, who decided LRMs were the biggest danger rather than Mr. Timber Wolf with his not-so-scary flashlights of torso-coring alpha strikes.

"ARF! LRMS ARE OP!"

And so LRMs got their velocity trimmed back to 160, never noticing the velocity quirked people hitting them at the same speed as pre-nerf but yet not clubbing them all into metallic fur stoles. The actual skilled players just laughed at the lurmers trying to hit them, as the inaccurate launchers were easily stymied by radar dep, random rocks, and perhaps ECM if you really were feeling naughty.

LRMs would never reach anywhere near the comp player's level and would be ridiculed by anyone who even had a clue to what "MBRC" meant other than "McDonald's Burger = Royal with Cheese.". Because they're that bad, and most people who try and gitgud with them do it with a sense of spite and utter self-awareness that yes, we're using the weapon equivalent of the third-string quarterback in the Superbowl, and he's actually the third-string quarterback from the community college team down the road.

Somehow, we even manage to get the drop on a good player. I'm not sure how. Perhaps luck. Likely masochism on our part paying off.

[Brain Cancer]

Ruar, on 19 June 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

Again with the "you don't like LRM'S so it must mean they touched you in a bad place" fallacy. It's not true and does nothing for your argument other than make you look foolish.

No, it's the "LRMs are this close to being equal to something out of WoT artillery, which DID touch you in a bad place.". You said as much.

Quote

As for direct fire, go ahead and tell me an effective direct fire long range missile option in the game

None, because neither the ATM or MRM is online yet. But you seem hellbent on making sure the only thing an LRM is good for is competing with them. While competing with the entire long range arsenal of usual suspects, any of the pinpoint/frontloaded damage types of which will always BTFO the LRM in that category, bar none. No indirect-fire weapon will be allowed to be competitive with direct-fire weapons at their own job.

Which is fine, we'd just like to be able to do our job with LRMs and just be a bit better than absolute trash on the direct-fire thing. Not even even-up with everyone else. Just better than we are now. That means velocity.

I'd happily take the spread damage I get, even though I think a bit of spread normalization is in order and it's never going to be a torso-clustering hammer of Thor (nor should it be, certainly not in IDF mode). I'd even suffer through not being able to shoot my missiles in a straight line without a lock.

But a weapon that can't hit what it's aimed at accurately outside of 50% range is laughable in terms of anything else in this game. Except LRMs. That's the most grievously wrong thing about the system.

Any direct fire weapon with even twice the current LRM velocity would be laughed off the field if that was what it was "meant to do". That's how badly it's hosed right now. Because it can shoot over a hill and splatter someone with damage.

Spoiler

And for those who missed the joke, all "MBRC" means is "McDonald's Burger = Royal with Cheese". The comp guys are the MRBC, and they know an underpowered weapon when they see one.

[Hanky Spam]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

perhaps but the main point is to make LRMs a more reliable weapon system(Hence Velocity),
increasing Velocity will increase its reliability as a weapon system, cooldown can balance that after,

Please god, save us from such a mad change. Even the idea is ridiculous...
The introduction of the skill tree spilled out already alot more lurm boats per drop and you want to buff them even more so that the only weapon system on the battlefield will be LRM...

[Admiral-Dan]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

many including my self have many idea on how to buff LRMs,

Watch this video

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/124760801

and then explain to me why LRMs need a buff.

Do LRM Boats really need to do even more Damage? Btw. LRMs got buffed since the release of this video trough the Skill Tree.

The problem of LRMs is not the weapon, normally it is the user.

[LittleGrim]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

many including my self have many idea on how to buff LRMs,
but as so many of us have ideas, and so few agree,

why not just increase LRM Velocity for the time being?
if LRMs had greater Velocity they would be more reliable across Tiers,
and in the end that what we all want, not an OP weapon system, just a reliable one,

so in this i ask you, how would you feel with LRMs getting a Velocity Buff?
(note Right now LRMs fly at 160m, with their arch it takes 8Secs to reach max range)

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

I think the biggest problem with LRM's is not the weapon itself but this idea that they should be as powerful as direct fire weapons. LRM's are a support weapon, as such they are currently in a good place. Normally I wouldn't comment as I don't use them, but I've taken my C1 for a spin more often since the skill tree. Lazy, easy Cbills.

In a decent-good game I was able to pull 400-600+ damage and get a few kills as well as a bunch of assists. I was often not far behind the front lines, shooting over hills or friendly mechs or getting my own locks. The main reason I was able to apply LRM damage wasn't because I was in the front lines, but because I was at angles counter to to the rest of the LRM boats sitting in the back. Being in the front lines allowed a lot MORE of my shots to connect because I was often within 3-400m of the mech I was shooting and able to SEE when a target moved into or out of cover.

I never once had a game where I felt like I carried a game like I can in a lower tier match in a direct fire mech. What I could do was support the aggressive mechs on my team by firing on it's target or by suppressing mechs moving into the open to fire on it. This is the LRMs role is it not? Support your team, not obliterate the enemy because they got spotted.

LRM's are currently a reliable weapon, so long as your not 800m+ away. You can't bring LRM's alone and expect to prosper. A big issue is that lower tier games are far more stagnant than higher tiers and players don't know how to build mechs in them either. Give people a reason to bring AMS (*Hint*cbill that matchscore bonus), wait till tiers 3/4/5 catch on that they can make money from ANTI-LRMing then start talking about buffing them.

TLDR: LRM's don't work well in T1 because of manoeuvring + cover + radar derp. Pay potatoes to shoot them down in the lower tiers THEN talk about buffs.

[Galenit]

AlphaEtOmega, on 20 June 2017 - 12:07 AM, said:

Watch this video

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/124760801

and then explain to me why LRMs need a buff.

Do LRM Boats really need to do even more Damage? Btw. LRMs got buffed since the release of this video trough the Skill Tree.

The problem of LRMs is not the weapon, normally it is the user.

Lots of mechs lost their lrm-quirks or get them reduced.
With skills they will mostly have the same quirks like before.

AMS usage increased with the patch,
more ams quirks then ams-modules used, because they are cheap on the tree.

ECM coverage and range is reduced a little by the skilltree.

In the end, its a tie slightly to the nerf side.


And the the ams buff comes with the next patch ....