114 replies to this topic

[Cementi]

Gwahlur, on 21 June 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

Are you complaining about all heavies?

Naw he was poking fun at how I felt heavies have needed a nerf for awhile now due to the evidence that to many people gravitate to them.

Mobility nerfs were needed and like everything will be a constant up and down process. People just have to learn to accept that.

[FireStoat]

Cementi, on 21 June 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

That's a little too "tinfoil hat" even for me.

Trust me, I will cheerfully apologize for my statement pending on what stats the Madcat Mk II is assigned for agility on its release when we can do a full comparison vs it's 90 tons, clan tech, battlemech status, and hardpoint locations against all other existing Assault mechs. I think you'll be in for a disappointment.

Edited by FireStoat, 21 June 2017 - 11:29 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Cementi, on 21 June 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Naw he was poking fun at how I felt heavies have needed a nerf for awhile now due to the evidence that to many people gravitate to them.

Mobility nerfs were needed and like everything will be a constant up and down process. People just have to learn to accept that.

Sooo, you think the mobility nerfs to 1 heavy (Night Gyr) and 1 assault (Mad IIc) is going to make people stop gravitating toward this "OP" class of mechs. Ok.

[Deathlike]

Bud Crue, on 21 June 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Sooo, you think the mobility nerfs to 1 heavy (Night Gyr) and 1 assault (Mad IIc) is going to make people stop gravitating toward this "OP" class of mechs. Ok.

You can if you set them to the levels of the KDK-3 (aka overnerf).

[xe N on]

Requiemking, on 21 June 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

In terms of size.

In term of size all humanoid mechs get the shaft. Front silhouette of the Griffin compared to the Marauder makes me cry, too. However, it is the volume that counts ...

Any spheroid mechs that get flanked loose their side torso in seconds. Humanoid mechs (often) have shielding arms and narrow side profile.

Edited by xe N on, 21 June 2017 - 11:37 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Deathlike, on 21 June 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

You can if you set them to the levels of the KDK-3 (aka overnerf).

Its going to take a hell of a lot more than one nerf to one mech to get the majority of players to stop playing the most popular class of mechs in the game. Making the Night Gyr into a jump turret does not harm any other heavy as far as I know.

[Ultimax]

Chris Lowrey, on 21 June 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

You guys are free to express how you feel about the game as you see fit. We'll examine what you guys say, including what is said in this thread, and if anything looks like it can be improved upon, we will look into improving it.

I've spent a long time, and a lot of effort - as have many others - trying to provide feedback to avoid many of the decisions that have lead to threads like these being created.

Unfortunately, I'm burnt out at this point - I've moved from being angry at changes that impact my enjoyment of the game to what is basically apathy where I simply just don't long on anymore.


I keep looking at all of the changes, and feel like the balance team has decided to balance around the lower tier players - and if that is your goal I would honestly love to know upfront so I can stop caring about it and move on.

[Deathlike]

Bud Crue, on 21 June 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Its going to take a hell of a lot more than one nerf to one mech to get the majority of players to stop playing the most popular class of mechs in the game. Making the Night Gyr into a jump turret does not harm any other heavy as far as I know.

It does matter though, especially for the Night Gyr.

It already has a low top speed, so it's not really going to escape much (outside of a Direwolf or Stock Urbie), and when you decrease agility further, it makes it harder to torso twist damage (you still have to do it unless you like dying more quickly).

The worst you could do (and if PGI does it, I take zero responsibility for PGI's actions) is actually nerf Hoverjets even more. Unlike the Timberwolf, you have (4) locked JJs no matter what, and making them worse would directly affect its ability to poptart (it's not really a turret in the first place). Hoverjets for the Victor (same as the Night Gyr - Class III) have never really been the same. The nodes on the skill tree are a joke anyways.

[Bud Crue]

Deathlike, on 21 June 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

It does matter though, especially for the Night Gyr.

Agree.

We are crossing threads. I was merely disagreeing with Cementi's post that the entire heavy class of mechs are the only meta, the only OP mechs and are all in need of a nerfing, because the heavy class is the most played class. The fact that the largest number of mechs in the game are the most sought after by players to play in the game does not inherently make them OP or meta or in need of a nerf.

[Ced Riggs]

I feel like I should add something, as it seemingly is easily jumped over: I generalise, and I picked points I don't necessarily view as turbo-annoying by themselves. I am also not asking for assistance or secret hints - I'm doing okay for myself.

My core point is, "fun", that elusive (as many have pointed out, relative) value, has been taking hits over the last couple months. I can't nail it down to a single position, I can't pinpoint which change did it - it's a sum of many small changes which were bearable by themselves. To those who counter that a nerf to X is balance, fine. But why does it have to be a nerf? Why can't it be a buff to others? Why does a mech that feels good have to be cut down because others feel worse?

Who would care if the Timber Wolf, for example, turns and moves nicely if other chassis had similar behaviour?
Who would care if the Marauder IIC weaves through the battlefield like a prowling dinosaur if all assaults had a similar pep in their stride?
Who would be mad at more agile heavies if mediums would be even more agile than that?
Which Light would be angry about Assaults turning swiftly if they could dance on a dime and still out turn them?

The question isn't about a specific change. Or what I can do to get that enjoyment of playing MWO back. It's about the general approach on how the situation is handled. It seems like over performers are brought in line, but not just at the cost of their overperformance, but at cost of "fun". Those who are saying that it isn't fun if only one or two mechs are viable: I agree. That's horse. Why aren't all mechs enjoyable? Why aren't underperformers brought up, why isn't fun and feel-good vibe the goal with balance decisions?

Balance and fun aren't mutually exclusive or diametrically opposed. Just, the last couple changes were all at the cost of fun. And I would like that general direction to change.

PS: I play mostly IS mediums these days, coming from Clan Heavies. My mechbays are a good 50/50 mix. I have no horse in either faction's race, nor do I have any weight class preferences. Jack of all trades, master of none right here.

[chucklesMuch]

I agree with the overall sentiment of the OP. My personal enjoyment of this game has taken successive knocks. I'm hoping that civil war/new tech will be a boost to fun.

Regarding weight classes; and I mostly solo QP, I currently see little reason, for me, to use any mech other than the more mobile heavies. lights and mediums have too little mobility/offensive quirks (strongly dislike the acc/dec/turning nerfs) to compensate for there lack of armour(or have is xl)/fire power. (Assaults were already iffy for me in solo).

[Ultimax]

Bud Crue, on 21 June 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

We are crossing threads. I was merely disagreeing with Cementi's post that the entire heavy class of mechs are the only meta, the only OP mechs and are all in need of a nerfing, because the heavy class is the most played class. The fact that the largest number of mechs in the game are the most sought after by players to play in the game does not inherently make them OP or meta or in need of a nerf.

Assaults have always been the most powerful class in the game, as it should be.They just aren't as self-sufficient as Heavies are in basic design due to their much lower agility - all of the other weight classes can easily work around a group of slower mechs but once you get to assault class mobility becomes a real issue.

Unless you have oodles of assault mechs, then it no longer matters and it's very clear, very quickly, what is the most powerful.

Don't expect the potato tier to understand this.



People forget that PGI has nerfed them out of frequent play in group queue due to tonnage limits, nerfed them out of play in FP due to drop deck tonnage limits - and then there is the solo queue where you have zero support to do your job.


Heavies are not now, and have not ever been, the most powerful class of mechs in the game.

They are simply more versatile - unfortunately potato players (and PGI it seems) often come to the conclusion that frequent usage (due to versatility) is bad and OP.

There is a good reason why Mid-range gameplay, typically with Heavy mechs, is the most common builds you see - it's because that's what works on most maps, on most modes, most of the time, regardless of team composition.


So when you are playing random teams on random maps, with random modes - guess what you pick? You pick versatility.


Comp games are totally different.

We know the team, we know the mech classes/tonnage alotted, we know the map, we know the mode - and what happens is specialist mechs get their chance to shine because we can apply them in the right circumstances.

Edited by Ultimax, 21 June 2017 - 12:18 PM.

[Ratpoison]

Your loss of fun pretty clearly has to do with you chasing the meta and getting upset over reasonable nerfs. Only buffing instead of nerfing is how power creep happens, and that is pretty definitively not fun. It's no surprise that what you call "fun" equates to "not fun" for the enemy team. Go play twitch shooters if you want to have awesome agility with the heaviest classes, that isn't what MechWarrior is about.

[Ced Riggs]

Ratpoison, on 21 June 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

Your loss of fun pretty clearly has to do with you chasing the meta and getting upset over reasonable nerfs. Only buffing instead of nerfing is how power creep happens, and that is pretty definitively not fun. It's no surprise that what you call "fun" equates to "not fun" for the enemy team. Go play twitch shooters if you want to have awesome agility with the heaviest classes, that isn't what MechWarrior is about.

I find your presumptious tone and smug hostility entirely unwarranted. Your dismissive commentary is not very constructive, and I would appreciate if you could opt for a less dismissive and holier-than-thou stance.

[JC Daxion]

Ultimax, on 21 June 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

I keep looking at all of the changes, and feel like the balance team has decided to balance around the lower tier players - and if that is your goal I would honestly love to know upfront so I can stop caring about it and move on.

First, lower and less skilled players are the vast majority of the players. So you have to take them into account. Top players can always adapt and find ways to shine.

You can't just make everything perfect for the 5% and expect a great game. I don't know any game that has ever balanced this way. If something was easy cheese in any game, it gets nerfed.


I honestly don't understand how most of the complaining i see is from the T1 folks.(and no i am not directing this at you, i am just saying in general from what i've noticed is all) I run into many in game, and have lots of fun fights with them. Sometimes i win, sometimes they win. In some groups in FW and scouting i have had a similar experience. But typically the ones outraged on the forums have the T1 and say you can't balance around lower players which honestly i don't get. You are not going to have magic balance if you just took the top 100 players and made the game perfectly balanced around the best of the best. It just isn't going to work.


In the end though I guess i just don't get anywhere near as attached to something as some folks. If my top mech/favorite mech gets nerfed then i typically keep playing it anyway. Sometimes i just play something new because. But in all my years of online gaming, basically since Online gaming has been a thing. (aka early 90's) I have never once said.. Well now i have zero fun because of some nerf/change. So my favorite weapon isn't that great anymore, or my favorite strat doesn't rule.. (6 ling rush anyone?) No i hated that, thank the maker blizzard nerfed that! More often than not a a nerf is warranted and often because it was such cheese in the first place.

Yes my tastes have changed over time, and sometimes i just stop playing games, but its never been because of a nerf/change, more my tastes are different.


But what i find so interesting is a game like this that is 100X harder to balance from the amount of combos on mechs that people don't understand what is so hard about it making it perfectly balanced. Games like starcraft, or DOTA, or overwatch which has locked up characters for the most part has tons of balance/tweaks over the years. Heck even starcraft still gets tweaked and it has had the same units for years. Sometimes people like um, others people don't. But it is a far simpler game to balance because a unit/character is played one way and not modified. It's not tweaked with different weapons, or heatsinks, or engine size or what ever. there are just so many variables.

That is one reason why i think engine desync is going to be the best step in the right direction in a long time. Taking away the ability to change a mechs mobility outside of top speed is a huge game changer in the balance department. I think in the long run people are going to realize this. the last month has proven that mobility is a key factor in mech balance, that has nothing to do with weapon changes. It also gives us a reason to use other mechs. Need something more mobile, play X mech, want something a bit less mobile with more firepower play Y mech. Not min/max so you can have the best of both worlds by swapping engines because it can boat up a certain weapon and become OP because of it.

New tech is coming, the skill tree changes are nice.. But people keep conflating the skill tree with the global changes which are mobility/heat changes. They did not need to add the skill tree to make this change. I honestly i think they should of done back in the winter, just to prove that, but i don't call the shots. So now people are saying my mech suchs, skill tree sucks, no fun.. blah blah. And maybe that is the way they think, i dunno.

All i can say is i've been having lots of fun playing around with lots of mechs i haven't played in years, and my top mechs are still a ton of fun. I will say i have tried a few that i didn't like all that much, or just was not that great in, but that's nothing new. I had mechs i sucked in before. They are just a bit different now.

Maybe it's because i like to play what i like to play, and often it is not what the people think as the best.. though changes happen and sometimes what i like becomes best.. I recall back when i was using MPL's on mechs and people would say all the time how bad they were because they ran hotter. But for me i did well in a bunch of mechs that i had um loaded up on. Then a change hit and all of a sudden MPL's were the goto weapon, then LPL's became that.

To me if there is one goto weapon, which this game has had quite a few times then something is off.

I'll just end by saying that i think we are headed in a better direction.. far better than when Boating SRM's on a jenner, Or AC5+PPC pop tart victors ruled the day.. and better than when the laser vomit was a thing, or the over quirked TDR's.. I do think that the idea of using those mechs should be viable in those ways.. But they should not be the Best way to play.

I am just waiting for another every mech leader board again to see if things change in the next few months. Because i honestly don't want to see the game in the state it was the last time, when you could run through the list and outside of heavies you could count the mechs on the list on one hand. And people are often pointing to that time as the best balance, which i just don't understand how people could say that.

But as chris said, everyone has an opinion.. this is mine.

happy gaming!

Edited by JC Daxion, 21 June 2017 - 01:01 PM.

[Ratpoison]

Ced Riggs, on 21 June 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

I find your presumptious tone and smug hostility entirely unwarranted. Your dismissive commentary is not very constructive, and I would appreciate if you could opt for a less dismissive and holier-than-thou stance.

Says the guy who made a topic dictating to people what "fun" is based on their own personal preference, while ignoring how the players on the other side feel. This topic is a joke and not worthy of a more comprehensive reply.

[Ced Riggs]

JC Daxion, on 21 June 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

I do think that the idea of using those mechs should be viable in those ways.. But they should not be the Best way to play.

Agreed. I just wish all mechs were viable and fun.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Chris Lowrey, on 21 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

Please do tell where I went on record and said I don't really play the game. Because that is just patently false.

I've only been with PGI in an official capacity since Oct-Nov. of 2016, but I've been playing the game all the way back to the beta days on my private account and continue to play to this day.

I don't play on my public "Chris Lowrey" account often both because I have substantially less 'Mech's on it and most of them are not skilled / customized and people tend to play / act differently when a dev is publicly around. But I play on my private account nearly daily unless I'm super swamped with something and have been for years, even prior to taking a position with PGI.

My apologies. I used the word "Apparently" in my post because that info has been passed around in several threads and quoted as truth multiple times. I should have said it was rumored.

On the other hand, it is nice to now know those rumors were false and I feel better about things. I was really concerned that balance was being handled by someone who was just looking at spreadsheets. I guess that feeling was reinforced by the fact that I find it hard to believe anyone who actually plays the game feels 1.25-1.5 second beam duration and UACs that jam up so often they are unusable for nearly half the match was actually fun or enjoyable in any sense of the word.

In any case, I will refrain from any more comments in regards to you not playing the game. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Ced Riggs, on 21 June 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Agreed. I just wish all mechs were viable and fun.

Well, do you want Mechs from BattleTech with massive quirks to offset their piss-poor design, or do you want Alex to reinvent them as they get added to the game? The latter would anger the neckbeards.

[JC Daxion]

Ced Riggs, on 21 June 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Agreed. I just wish all mechs were viable and fun.

well the thing is fun is subjective.. Some people's idea of fun is watching the bachelor

Me on the other hand would rather re-watch an episode of star trek for the 100th time.

Is one right? (HINT IT's mine!)


see my point?