114 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

Prosperity Park, on 21 June 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

Well, do you want Mechs from BattleTech with massive quirks to offset their piss-poor design, or do you want Alex to reinvent them as they get added to the game? The latter would anger the neckbeards.

See that is the other thing.. People are really stuck on their lore, and trying to balance a game based on dice rolls, and turn it into a skill game.

I was just in a group the other day and people were talking about all sorts of stuff battle tech. The most common part of the theme was, they are trying to balance a game around a game that was not balanced in the first place. Was actually pretty interesting listening to them and their takes on the whole thing. I learned a bunch about BT past, and other games i have not played.. Or did not put tons of time into. Just listening to their thoughts on the Mek Tech Stuff, and how awfully balanced some of it was, or the way certain things worked on MW:LL. Or the exploits in the MW games of old. Was really interesting to hear folks chat about that sorta stuff.

[Cementi]

Bud Crue, on 21 June 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Sooo, you think the mobility nerfs to 1 heavy (Night Gyr) and 1 assault (Mad IIc) is going to make people stop gravitating toward this "OP" class of mechs. Ok.

Never said that, just said that nerfs to them are justified. I did say that I think class balance is the best it has been in awhile but that does not mean more adjustments need to be made.

Baby steps need to be taken......even they do people accuse them of making giant leaps. Sorry CSPL crowd.....it never should have been at 6 damage. Shouldn't even be at 4 but we'll see where things go.

[Cementi]

Ced Riggs, on 21 June 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

I feel like I should add something, as it seemingly is easily jumped over: I generalise, and I picked points I don't necessarily view as turbo-annoying by themselves. I am also not asking for assistance or secret hints - I'm doing okay for myself.

My core point is, "fun", that elusive (as many have pointed out, relative) value, has been taking hits over the last couple months. I can't nail it down to a single position, I can't pinpoint which change did it - it's a sum of many small changes which were bearable by themselves. To those who counter that a nerf to X is balance, fine. But why does it have to be a nerf? Why can't it be a buff to others? Why does a mech that feels good have to be cut down because others feel worse?

Who would care if the Timber Wolf, for example, turns and moves nicely if other chassis had similar behaviour?
Who would care if the Marauder IIC weaves through the battlefield like a prowling dinosaur if all assaults had a similar pep in their stride?
Who would be mad at more agile heavies if mediums would be even more agile than that?
Which Light would be angry about Assaults turning swiftly if they could dance on a dime and still out turn them?

The question isn't about a specific change. Or what I can do to get that enjoyment of playing MWO back. It's about the general approach on how the situation is handled. It seems like over performers are brought in line, but not just at the cost of their overperformance, but at cost of "fun". Those who are saying that it isn't fun if only one or two mechs are viable: I agree. That's horse. Why aren't all mechs enjoyable? Why aren't underperformers brought up, why isn't fun and feel-good vibe the goal with balance decisions?

Balance and fun aren't mutually exclusive or diametrically opposed. Just, the last couple changes were all at the cost of fun. And I would like that general direction to change.

PS: I play mostly IS mediums these days, coming from Clan Heavies. My mechbays are a good 50/50 mix. I have no horse in either faction's race, nor do I have any weight class preferences. Jack of all trades, master of none right here.

Fun is an entirely subjective thing though. From my perspective the game is more fun than it has been in awhile *shrug* not saying whose position is right. There is no right answer. Just that I disagreed with many of your points in your OP.

[Cementi]

JC Daxion, on 21 June 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

First, lower and less skilled players are the vast majority of the players. So you have to take them into account. Top players can always adapt and find ways to shine.

You can't just make everything perfect for the 5% and expect a great game. I don't know any game that has ever balanced this way. If something was easy cheese in any game, it gets nerfed.


I honestly don't understand how most of the complaining i see is from the T1 folks.(and no i am not directing this at you, i am just saying in general from what i've noticed is all) I run into many in game, and have lots of fun fights with them. Sometimes i win, sometimes they win. In some groups in FW and scouting i have had a similar experience. But typically the ones outraged on the forums have the T1 and say you can't balance around lower players which honestly i don't get. You are not going to have magic balance if you just took the top 100 players and made the game perfectly balanced around the best of the best. It just isn't going to work.

The reason you typically see more T1's griping about nerfs is for them the fun is finding that perfect build/strategy that obliterates everything else. They spend alot of time theory crafting and building this stuff to the point that it is almost like a second job. When something is nerfed, justified or not these people will always raise hell because they have lost a TON of time and effort and they will have to go through it all again to find the next big thing......which in turn gets nerfed. I can see how this would be frustrating.......I just don't care because to most of them (not all as there are some that appreciate a fair and even fight) there fun comes from seal clubbing which is not fun for their opponents.

I have played comp in other games, its a ton of effort and frankly the biggest poor sports you'll meet, win or lose tend to gravitate towards that style of play. Hence why you see them complain the most and the current trend is to call anyone who does not agree with or stroke their epeen a potato.

I am fine being a potato, it is one of my favorite foods and is incredibly versatile. Maybe that's why us potato's do not get as upset as nerfs as we just keep playing what is fun and do not spend hours of work to find the next big thing.

[Ced Riggs]

Ratpoison, on 21 June 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

Says the guy who made a topic dictating to people what "fun" is based on their own personal preference, while ignoring how the players on the other side feel. This topic is a joke and not worthy of a more comprehensive reply.

My apologies if it was too much text to read. I should have included a TL;DR, it seems. I tried to point out that everyone has their own definition of fun and gripes, and that I don't claim any "one true vision" in subtext. As for the players "on the other side", I pointed out, here and elsewhere, that I would want every mech, every weapon system and every playstyle to be enjoyable. I can't be more inclusive than that.

I really do not understand your bitterness and hostility.

[Coolant]

Ced Riggs, on 21 June 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

Unresponsive mechs.

Invest in Mobility

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Near instantaneous, long weapon jams.

Jams were a problem before which is why I always chose AC5's rather than Ultras...maybe do the same?

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Spontaneous combustions after beign grazed by MGs.

don't get this one...if your talking about crits, add armor/invest in survival.

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The inability to take a turn.

Invest in Mobility

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Running into team mates or walls.

Invest in Mobility

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Hover jets that do nigh nothing.

Add jumpjets and invest in Jumpjet tree

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Endless screenshake.

Invest in Operations

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Brawling being less and less of an option.

Not seeing a difference in Quickplay...range has always dominated FW

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LRMs being in a pitiful state.

Hard not to step on toes with this one, but any weapon that you don't even have to see the enemy is overpowered and should be weak. LRM's have been nerfed and buffed throughout MWO's lifespan so you cannot ascribe a lack of fun to this period of time.

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Goose-Pepsi centric meta.

Have no idea what this means.

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The same maps for years.

Grant you this one

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CW coming, but seemingly having no meaning.

Having no meaning is not the same as not fun. One could say that there is no real meaning for any video game but that doesn't mean it's fun. If you say not rewarding that might be more accurate.

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Strategic Strike Warrior Online

no idea what you mean

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rather than looking at the mechs that performed well and learning from it, it seems that we got shafted across the board.

Blatantly wrong. Several mechs invested heavily in Mobility tree have more mobility than before.

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But, mech responsiveness is a direct correlation to how enjoyable, how comfortable it is to pilot that mech.

Begging the Question/Circular Reasoning - you have not established the premise. You can't assume the conclusion without proving or at least providing evidence beforehand.

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Lights were hit with the rescale and subsequent mobility blanket nerfs. Larger and easier to hit, less responsive, unless they are Locusts. Piloting any non-20t Light is an exercise in patience and frustration now.

I've said it in many posts, but light pilots have no idea how easy they have it in MWO. They could nerf lights several times more and they would still be easier than lights in MW4:Mercs.

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Scouting isn't rewarded, UAV placement has rewards in no relation to the danger, and squirreling has no rewards either.

Combat has always been the focus in the Mechwarrior franchise including the previous title. Have no idea what squirreling is.

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Mediums are the last class to feel good when piloting, with the Summoner and Linebacker being the few exceptions.

Well, those are heavies. But, looking at the Que, mediums are the most popular right now.

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Across the board, mediums are now a mixed bag.

They were before and have been throughout the life of MWO.

• Quote

  Heavies feel cumbersome, and often as Assaults used to feel. There is a lot less of twisting, a lot less of darting.

Invest in the Mobility tree.

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Assaults are now playing TurretWarrior:Online.

Yes...Assaults strength is firepower cause they have the tonnage to pack them

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Again, I could go on. You could add and go on, too.

We both did, and I have to say that I don't think any of your points is evidence to your premise of the game losing fun. Maybe the game is less fun for some, but I don't think you have adequately defended your reasons why.

Quote

So, for what it's worth, I'd implore Chris, Russ, whoever, to look at your game and ponder: What can we do to make the game fun? Increase the fun. Return control and comfort to the players, after you took it away, bit by bit. You may eventually reach a game that is balanced by the numbers and metrics, but if it isn't fun at that point in time, your balance efforts will be worthless.

There has been on-going balance throughout the life of MWO and some very vocal critics throughout. Things haven't changed and they won't change. As I've said in previous posts and still challenge - please list a few MMO's that have not had balancing passes that are at least 4 years old or older.

Edited by Coolant, 21 June 2017 - 02:11 PM.

[Athom83]

Coolant, on 21 June 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Have no idea what this means.

"Gauss-PPC" = "goose-pepsi" when saying it in a derogatory way.

Coolant, on 21 June 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

no idea what you mean

He's salty because airstrike and artystrike have become more powerful than before when invested in.

Coolant, on 21 June 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Have no idea what squirreling is.

When a light/fast medium is able to take the attention of several enemy mechs away from the fight. Its a meme from the Disney movie UP.

Coolant, on 21 June 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Well, those are heavies. But, looking at the Que, mediums are the most popular right now.

Because there is an event going on right now for getting "Protected Medium".

Edited by Athom83, 21 June 2017 - 02:30 PM.

[Ced Riggs]

Coolant, on 21 June 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

There has been on-going balance throughout the life of MWO and some very vocal critics throughout. Things haven't changed and they won't change. As I've said in previous posts and still challenge - please list a few MMO's that have not had balancing passes that are at least 4 years old or older.

Again, I do not understand where the (admittedly: perceived) smugness comes from. You post invokes the feeling you think of the OP as someone's opinion that didn't bother or care to invest in/learn about the skill tree. Far from it. For starters, if your mobility profile is 10.79 (the third worst profile in the entire game) you can't invest in mobility. You get 5% of nothing. It's still nothing. It's percentage game. PGI did it right for Armor & Structure, shifting the values by tonnage. They didn't for mobility. So, you can strike out any and all "invest in mobility" responses. They are invalid.

As for the text I quoted: I never said anything against balancing, against changes, at all or anywhere. I welcome change. I just would like to see change that takes into account "fun", and not just metrics. Is it fun to pilot a mech, is it fun to fly around, is it fun to fire this gun? That's what I am after. Give me fun in all mechs, with all weapon systems, for each faction. Change as much as you must and want to, throw curveballs, but, don't pay with fun as currency to hunt the elusive balance unicorn.

Hope that made it clear enough for you to follow, as it seems like there seems to be some misunderstanding what the OP is about.

Edited by Ced Riggs, 21 June 2017 - 02:29 PM.

[Athom83]

Ced Riggs, on 21 June 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Again, I do not understand where the (admittedly: perceived) smugness comes from. You post invokes the feeling you think of the OP as someone's opinion that didn't bother or care to invest in/learn about the skill tree.

The OPer referencing himself in the third person.

Ced Riggs, on 21 June 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Far from it. For starters, if your mobility profile is 10.79 (the third worst profile in the entire game) you can't invest in mobility. You get 5% of nothing. It's still nothing. It's percentage game. PGI did it right for Armor & Structure, shifting the values by tonnage. They didn't for mobility. So, you can strike out any and all "invest in mobility" responses. They are invalid.

Its true they messed up there. However we will have to wait and see another month or two for PGI to come up with a fix/another option. My vote is for a flat increase instead of percentage.

Ced Riggs, on 21 June 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

As for the text I quoted: I never said anything against balancing, against changes, at all or anywhere. I welcome change. I just would like to see change that takes into account "fun", and not just metrics. Is it fun to pilot a mech, is it fun to fly around, is it fun to fire this gun? That's what I am after. Give me fun in all mechs, with all weapon systems, for each faction. Change as much as you must and want to, throw curveballs, but, don't pay with fun as currency to hunt the elusive balance unicorn.

Again, the problem lies in the perception of fun. Is it fun to roll the enemy most of the time? Yes. Is it fun to be rolled most of the time? No. Is it all that fun to be 50/50 on everything? That depends on who you ask, some would say yes while others no.

[Felicitatem Parco]

My fun has not been nerfed by this patch. I do not know why people are so flipped about this.

[Ced Riggs]

Athom83, on 21 June 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

The OPer referencing himself in the third person.

OP is both "Original Post" and "Original Poster". OP used as the prior here.

[Felbombling]

I read some of the posts in here and I honestly get the feeling that a large number of players want to drop in game, click their left mouse button twelve times and then spam chat with, "I'm leet, yo!"

[CtrlAltWheee]

There's a lot PGI could do better. Look at youtube vids of MW:LL.

But I like the game being slowed down. I think it was the right decision.

[J0anna]

Chris Lowrey, on 21 June 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

You guys are free to express how you feel about the game as you see fit. We'll examine what you guys say, including what is said in this thread, and if anything looks like it can be improved upon, we will look into improving it. I don't want to stand in the way of your discussions or debate. Was just popping in to make sure that false information did not contribute to it. As that doesn't add anything to the discussion rather then just inflame emotions of those participating.

Ok examine this.

Fix Jump Jets. Period

If I go out of my way to place 5 JJ on my Highlander, it should perform like a Huntsman. Right now jump jets are all over the place. Make them consistent. 5 JJ on an assault is worthless. You should be able to jump just the same as 5 JJ on a medium, you pay the tax in weight. Right now mediums are in a good place for JJ's, make them the standard and equalize them.

1) Arguments - oh the poptarts, fine extend the reticule shake 1 second after the JJ's are released, hell make mechs unable to shoot if in the air - I don't care. This isn't about poptarting, I want to be able to maneuver, jump over buildings and (when we get real collision damage) perform the 'highlander burial'

2) 1 jump jet was too good before - I'm not talking about 1 or 2 jumpjets, I'm talking about serious investment, 3+ and investing skill points. The executioner should be able to jump to the upper platform on crimson strait, even using masc and investing max skill points, he can't (he can see above it, but can't get his legs on it).

Fix it - it's been broken for far too long and makes the game less fun.

[LordNothing]

the game is fun for me. i had fun playing fp as a pug. we did come against organized teams and even beat them down a couple times.

Fox the Apprentice, on 21 June 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Thinking man's shooter =/= fast

'thinking men'

i think pgi really missed the demographic with this one. all those players who think that skirmish should be the only mode in the game definitely do not fit this classification. neither are those that fail to realize its not skirmish and complain when they lost because of objectives. and of course the devs.

shoulda gone with the sim route and dropped the shooter moniker all together. also esports isnt helping your prime demographic.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 June 2017 - 09:37 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Chris Lowrey, on 21 June 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

I don't play on my public "Chris Lowrey" account often both because I have substantially less 'Mech's on it and most of them are not skilled / customized and people tend to play / act differently when a dev is publicly around. But I play on my private account nearly daily unless I'm super swamped with something and have been for years, even prior to taking a position with PGI.

People acting differently is actually a fair point. However, anyone can claim that he plays on a different account, but there is no proof, unless of course you reveal your alt account to the public. So why exactly aren't you playing on this account of yours? ... What is that the people are doing seeing a PGI tag that makes you not play, huh? Have you considered that their reaction is a direct result of the current state of the game and recent changes being made?

[farout]

I am also wondering if he plays any of the 100 tonners. Or if he equips his clan mechs with standard ACs. I'm wondering how much fun he' s having with his numerous sub-par mechs that noone really uses but to troll.

I'm wondering if the stats PGI is looking at show now a increase in fun, because a whole bunch of mechs are not seen on the battlefield anymore.

Players are not using bad mechs or weak weapons - they just switch to the next big thing.

I agree that adjustments are needed, but they need to make sense. Small Lasers are getting nerfed and the long range meta stays untouched. Mechs that rely on speed for a short range punch are turned into sloths.

This is pure randomness.

[Ced Riggs]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 June 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

People acting differently is actually a fair point. However, anyone can claim that he plays on a different account, but there is no proof, unless of course you reveal your alt account to the public. So why exactly aren't you playing on this account of yours? ... What is that the people are doing seeing a PGI tag that makes you not play, huh? Have you considered that their reaction is a direct result of the current state of the game and recent changes being made?

I feel like anyone is entitled to their privacy in their private time. Chris isn't a person of public life or interest, and seeing how several streamers already get undue aggro, I can only guess how some folks around here would react to a dev. Oh wait. I don't have to guess.



You can easily imagine the "lel devs cant play own gaem" and "haha i got chrus" after a lemming rush that ended half a team. So, let's just not.

[JC Daxion]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 June 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

People acting differently is actually a fair point. However, anyone can claim that he plays on a different account, but there is no proof, unless of course you reveal your alt account to the public. So why exactly aren't you playing on this account of yours? ... What is that the people are doing seeing a PGI tag that makes you not play, huh? Have you considered that their reaction is a direct result of the current state of the game and recent changes being made?

That is honestly the dumbest thing I've read in a very long time..

ANY time there is a PGI person in the game they become the primary target. The entire team goes after that one person and tries to kill them, and it's been happening since i started playing which is over 4 years ago now.

I've been on teams with a PGI guy in the past and have had people run right past me as i am firing at them, not caring at all, just to get to them. People rambo through entire firing lines and if the PGI person drops and it is 12-1 they think its a win. It's actually quite comical. So seeing this has been going on since the game has been around, it is hardly to do with any decision they have made.

It's as if they have a Achievement tided to them..

I don't blame him for not saying publicly what his account is.. I know enough people that know him, that knows he plays to take his word for it.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ced Riggs, on 22 June 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

I feel like anyone is entitled to their privacy in their private time. Chris isn't a person of public life or interest, and seeing how several streamers already get undue aggro, I can only guess how some folks around here would react to a dev. Oh wait. I don't have to guess.

You can easily imagine the "lel devs cant play own gaem" and "haha i got chrus" after a lemming rush that ended half a team. So, let's just not.

I never suggested he should reveal his alt.

The "aggro" as you put it, or any reaction is exactly the effect of the action the person took prior. I.e. a streamer announces his stream which causes a reaction, drawing certain comments from other players for example. Said comments can differ, they can be both positive and negative, justified or not etc. Same with devs. But if you are looking for only positive ones, then you clearly not fit for a job. Regardless, the reaction a dev would draw is a direct result of actions a dev made prior, i.e. balancing changes, state of the game, Mechpak^TM and so on ...

And "Lemming rush" as you put it will allow the person rushed to feel the effects of focused fire on TTK. Maybe if more devs were lemming rushed each day we'd actually had a better game due to understanding of certain concepts, like why for example having irrelevant objectives leads to teams deathballing and using only 10% of map surface for an actual fight. And why having 12v12 battles within a 1000x1000m area isn't fun.

But then again, who am I kidding? ... Devs ... understanding? ... lol

JC Daxion, on 22 June 2017 - 01:55 AM, said:

I've been on teams with a PGI guy in the past and have had people run right past me as i am firing at them, not caring at all, just to get to them. People rambo through entire firing lines and if the PGI person drops and it is 12-1 they think its a win. It's actually quite comical.

So what exactly is wrong with enjoying the 50.0+ W/L ?