465 replies to this topic

[B0oN]

gamingogre, on 21 June 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Every time I get spawned ***** I report the team as exploiting and quit for the night. Spawn killing is unacceptable. Why has PGI allowed this? Fix the maps or remove them from a multiple waves of drops. Please understand this is non-negotiable. Fix. The. Spawn. Killing.

Work as a team and defend yourself .
No need to let the enemy into your spawn at all, except for some nasty surprises ...

[TercieI]

It's been true since day one of CW: If you're getting spawn killed, you are outclassed and have already lost. It just gets the match over faster.

[Psycho Cop]

Unholy Jackson, on 21 June 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

actually it's pretty easy. You just put walls on the spawns that don't already have them, and then put up a uac10 turret that doesn't jam and has 9999 hp inside. Other games have this.

Yeah, nah. That sounds like a perfect way for people to spawn camp and never walk out of the darn spawns anymore.
Especially when there's no objective mode (skirmish).

I'd rather say, only have objective modes in CW.
If you have a dropcaller, listen to him and move to his called location. Strength in numbers! Divided you shall fall.
And try to fight far away from the spawns. The further you are, the harder it is for the enemy to get to the spawns.

[DANKnuggz]

omg, more of this crybaby crap.... Look, you got your A$$ handed to you so bad on the 1st or 2nd wave that the enemy had solid enough mechs to march over and stomp you as you drop... This is almost always attributable to bad teams with poor coordination and subpar builds getting rolled and no amount of dragging it out will help you. Any hunter can tell you its best to kill quickly and cleanly rather than let wounded prey suffer. It is the same here in MWO, the only "mercy" you can expect is a swift death... Please, in the future could you die with more honor, with say maybe less blubbering and crying?

[nehebkau]

gamingogre, on 21 June 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Every time I get spawned ***** I report the team as exploiting and quit for the night. Spawn killing is unacceptable. Why has PGI allowed this? Fix the maps or remove them from a multiple waves of drops. Please understand this is non-negotiable. Fix. The. Spawn. Killing.

FOR THE LOVE OF JEBUS!

DO NOT DROP IN FW IF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE NOT MET:

1. You are dropping with at least 8 players

2. At least 6 of those players are VERY skilled at FW

3. At least 6 of those players are dropping in Meta or near Meta mechs.

4. You have a designated drop caller

5. You are ALL on coms.

If you fail to meet one of these conditions then follow this example:

[Hobbles v]

nehebkau, on 22 June 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

FOR THE LOVE OF JEBUS!

DO NOT DROP IN FW IF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE NOT MET:

1. You are dropping with at least 8 players

2. At least 6 of those players are VERY skilled at FW

3. At least 6 of those players are dropping in Meta or near Meta mechs.

4. You have a designated drop caller

5. You are ALL on coms.

If you fail to meet one of these conditions then follow this example:

Players who are afraid to drop without a full team or at least 8 people are going to stay bad players. Don't stay a bad player, challenge yourselves and improve.

Dropping solo is a great way to get better at fighting, but it breeds selfish play that doesn't work out well for your teammates.

Dropping in with full size teams will also improve your play, especially from a team play perspective. But in this environment your personal ability grows very slowly, especially if your are a weaker pilot, because the strong pilots in the group often do the heavy lifting before you even get a chance to try and being constantly insulated by teammates will keep you weak.

The best way to improve quickly is to drop in small groups. You are less insulated by your team and thus forced to either git good and carry, or die, while at the same time having a couple buddies you know you can rely on/care about their well being will improve your ability to play in a team setting.

BCMC was founded on dropping in lance strength, and most nights we typically field a 6-9 man drop. Dropping with some pugs helps keep us honest because against the majority of the faction play community, we easily stomp them when there are 12 of us around.

Just look at EVIL, probably the best FP unit in the game, its rare to see them in a full group, and tiny forces of those guys wreck just about everybody.

[Vagosei]

If I pug and you guys start to do that...I'll tell you hit the W key...its very close to your hand..its OK...It won't BITE...PUSH THE W KEY...and you may or may not get spawn camped....but at least you can say you tried....sitting at all is instant death and loss in FW. Anyway you put it.

PS........ PUSH THE W KEY...

[Dead Tom Kerensky]

Why impenetrable spawns would be a poor idea:

1. A team can lose first wave and then just draw out the game for the full time causing both teams to just sit there for 30 minutes. Don't even need the team to do it just 1 pilot, even a disconnect can cause this. Solvable via certain checks but that's not the real issue.

2. Team A wins first fight losing 6 mechs to the other teams 12. Team B who lost first wave sits in base. At 2:30 left they exit base and since they have 12 full health mechs vs 6 full health and 6 hurt mechs team B wins that fight losing 4 mechs making the score 18 for Team B and 16 for Team A. So team B wins at the last second not by being better but by sitting in the base. If team A ejects to get new mechs so that last minute fight is even they then even the score negating the first wave completely.

I do agree the spawn points should be close together giving overlapping lines of fire on the dropships to make them more effective and allowing the team being camped to assist each other instead of fighting 12v4 until people are permadead.

Edited by Dead Tom Kerensky, 22 June 2017 - 02:56 PM.

[Commander A9]

Did you launch LRMs or sniper platforms from your spawn?

If so, expect it.

During the Vietnam War, it was common practice for North Vietnamese forces to swarm U.S. helicopter drop zones with troops. You will find that "spawn-camping" or "LZ swarming" is a time-honored wartime tactic.

[50 50]

This old chestnut of a problem.

Some valid points made.

Spawn camping, or the ability to move your spawn point (drop location) was discussed at the last round table but there seemed to be some conflicting thoughts on how to handle it and no-one seemed to be able to work through the idea.

Spawn camping is a tactic to eliminate the players before they have the chance to deal any damage back and therefore take the advantage in numbers and therefore the game if that has not been done already.
It is a result of not having a better built in function around the drop zones or adequate player control to change our drop locations.
It is therefore a very frustrating and painful experience, hence grief.
But this is because of some daft pilot in a dropship that still sees fit to deploy mechs into an area where control has been lost.

The best answer is to put in more functionality around the drop zones and give players more control of where they want to deploy.
1. There needs to be a couple of small checks in place at the drop zones.
- Just like the conquest points, there needs to be a contest for control of the drop zones. An enemy mech that can get into the area and capture the drop zone can shut it down and take control of it for their side creating the opportunity select it as a location to deploy from.
- A contested drop zone, like the conquest points, which has both a friendly and enemy mech in the zone is considered a hot drop location. Under this situation the drop ship should not deploy any more mechs to the location until it becomes uncontested.
- Should a drop zone become contested while a dropship is deploying mechs or in it's holding pattern, itcould remain in place providing support until either the enemy mechs or the friendly mechs are destroyed therefore resolving the contested status.
- An uncontested drop zone functions as normal for the team that controls it.

2. Being able to deploy to another drop zone, ie. Change our spawn location, needs to be a function usable and controlled by players at any time while waiting to drop.
There was a perceived problem with drop ship flight paths that no one at the time offered any ideas for, so here is the process:
- Drop ships need to fly in at a higher altitude and enter a holding pattern. This is a three high stack which will allow multiple lances to deploy from the same drop zone with the drop ships initially entering at the highest, stage 1, altitude if that position is currently free. Until then the dropship waits in orbit, or the players select a different location.
- Once in the holding pattern the drop ship does a simple check at stage 1 to see if it can move to stage 2 and then finally to stage 3. Once at stage 3 the drop ship is in position to deploy mechs onto the field. This means we can use a single flight path for entry and exit for all the drop ships to the same drop zone.
- Using the stack also means there could be three drop ships at a location providing substantial defense for players at that location so we should also consider a greater level of interaction to be enabled with them. ie. shoot them down.
- Players in their mechs can simply 'appear' in the dropship at the point they can be deployed at stage 3 of the holding pattern to prevent the loss of mechs should we be able to shoot down drop ship outside of our ability to do anything against it (think long tom type problem where you don't actually have a say in the matter). Destruction of the drop ship then becomes a way to delay the drop allowing an attacker to try and take control of the drop zone. It become strategic without the grief.
- Should we get additional locations on the map to deploy from beyond the initial drop zones on each side, such as bases, then we do not need to use drop ships and can instead use the lifts as seen in the Steiner 1v1 and use the same 'wait in line' holding pattern should more than one lance wish to spawn from the same location.

The argument might be made about loss of income due to not being able to damage the enemy mechs.
This is the true 'farmer' mentality where in the lack of an objective to determine the win other than 'eliminate enemy mechs', such as skirmish is, a player will spawn camp for cash.
While this attitude may be considered poor, it could also be considered a response to an adequate pay for time spent when compared to quick play and taking into consideration the match length and the wait time a player might experience to even get into the match. While wait times are another problem, the immediate solution is to provide reward for capturing a drop zone, elimination of a drop ship and a bonus based on how many mechs the enemy team may have had remaining should the lose control of all of their drop zones. Consider it a 'drove the enemy from the battle' reward.

[MischiefSC]

The last match we played, Skirmish on Terra Therma. KCom was farming the other team in their dropzone into the 2nd wave. One guy on the other team raged and voiced his opinion on the event the whole match.

However, why was that?

They went 1 grid, less than 1k, from their dropzone and waited for us. So when we won the wave we were literally within firing range of their dropships after we killed their first wave.

We literally had to walk almost 3K to get to them to fight them.

The match before that, Frozen City. We hiked literally the whole length of the map to find the other team.... about 600m from their dropzone and us about 2500m from ours. We wiped them as they fell back (in some cases turned and ran) back into their dropzone. We killed members of their first wave in their dropzone while their 2nd wave was dropping. We farmed them in their dropzone the whole match. Most never even tried to leave it.

Match after that, Frozen City again. However they brought range and circled the opposite side of the canyon the same speed we did. We chased each other back and forth, it was a long, hard fight and a good match. At no point in that match did we shoot anyone anywhere near their dropzone. They came out of their DZ in a hard, fast push every match and gave a great accounting of themselves.

See how that works?

If you don't leave your DZ, if you don't push directly toward the enemy (or approximately toward them to a good engagement point) then if you lose the wave they're going to be at your DZ already. If you don't move away from your DZ, then that's where the fight is.

It's not about any strategic value to killing the enemy before they do damage. It's about where you are and where the enemy is. If the other team is at your DZ it's because they moved faster than you and you played like a *****. End of story.

If you don't want spawn camped then how about you move more than 1 grid from your spawn before trying to find a corner to LRM around. Quit jockeying to be the guy in the back and using your teammates as armor. Quit playing like it's QP. Play like it's FW and there's respawns and your dropzone? It's a vulnerable location you want to keep the other team from getting close to. How about you act like the objective of the match is to go SHOOT THE OTHER TEAM, instead of how to find the best hiding spot or even 'don't get shot'. The difference between 'shoot the other guy' being your main priority (within reason) vs 'don't get shot' being your main priority is the difference between winning matches and losing matches.

Spawn camping happens because people don't leave the area of their spawn.

[Rustyhammer]

Do not overcomplicate the solution.
We just need a circle area around each drop zone, much like a domination circle.
If there are more enemy mechs within that circle than friendly mechs (including ones that about to drop), then the drop zone should be considered 'overrun' and the incoming drop ship either pause or arrive to a different drop zone.
If all drop zones are overrun, the match is over (that can only happens during the final drop).

Honestly, if a full lance of fresh mechs + drop ship turrets can't kill 4 already beaten enemy mechs, such team deserve to be spawn camped. These matches not fun for both teams and should be finished as fast as possible.

[Roland09]

MischiefSC, on 22 June 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

If you don't want spawn camped then how about you move more than 1 grid from your spawn before trying to find a corner to LRM around.

But... but... but dropship pilot MVP? What is a poor IS lurmer to do when only the dropship knows how to press "r"? And hold of lockings?

[LordNothing]

spawn campings are usually caused by excessively passive play on part of the victims. people either wait for them to come, and they will, or they nascar and leave a unprotected path to the base. its a valid tactic and a sure sign that your team screwed up.

you can counter it though. nobody rtbs to help spawners who are usually on their own against a wolf pack. stopping a spawn camp requires rapid action from the spawners, like bringing brawly mechs to help suppress the people doing the camp, while this goes on the bulk of the team needs to rtb for support. mass ejecting can help a lot, even though it leaves you at a disadvantage for the rest of the game. but i find if you do, you end up with better scores.

or exploit the situation and make a run for objectives, ive seen 12 mans fail because they put too much firepower into spawn camping and left their base unguarded and a few mediums stroll in and destroy everything before they can eject and re-drop. throw that metal into the fury because how long you think you are going to last a lance down. simply do the thing that needs doing.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 June 2017 - 10:10 PM.

[Ausajax]

A new idea to throw into the ring: how about a heat penalty for the drop zone area. Penalises anyone who spends a lot of time in the dropzone but freshly dropped mechs won't be impacted as much. Similar to walking in the lava on Terra therma. It won't be a hard fix but it will reduce the advantage for either side in camping the drop zone.

[Grim Wardin]

How about simply making Drop Ships more formidable (to discourage insta-gibbing arriving mechs) and/or drop locations more random (yet still viewable to spawn campers)? This gives arriving mechs a reasonable chance to land but doesn't prevent them from being killed if they stay in the drop zone.

[Leone]

Do you realize how formidable those things already are?

Here is the full Lore armament of a leopard class drop ship.

2 x PPCs
3 x LRM-20s
7 x Medium Lasers
5 x Large Lasers

And I'd rather have that than the 'ole Twelve ER Large.

~Leone.

[TWIAFU]

Hobbles v, on 22 June 2017 - 02:22 PM, said:

The best way to improve quickly is to drop in small groups. You are less insulated by your team and thus forced to either git good and carry, or die, while at the same time having a couple buddies you know you can rely on/care about their well being will improve your ability to play in a team setting.

I would add;

ASK those dropmates/teammates/buddies that you care about/rely on to provide you honest feedback on piloting and how to improve.

One of the hardest things to do is to admit one needs help and to ask others for it. But if you do have those pilots you care about/rely on, they WILL provide that feedback to help one improve.

Ask those that are 'better' is not a flaw. Ask those 'better' is not admission of failure. Asking those that are 'better' is a sign of wanting to BE better.

I know I am not the bestest piliot. I know I can improve. I know I have improved and yet still have a ways to go. I know I would not have made any real measurable improvement without asking those better then me, and there are many, to assist me in improving.

Teamwork has other benefits then being part of a team.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

An experienced player dropping as a PUG or in lance or less strength is indeed a great way to improve your fighting skill. You have to get your damage in, be sharp in your positioning (no one will bail you out), etc....in order to prevail. Our guys do it all the time, but we do recognize that if we run into a 10-12 man of a good or elite unit...it might not always go so good...you might even get spawn camped....the horror......but we even like that challenge and it's just is the price to be paid. So, as long as you go in fully knowing that..don't care overly much about your w/l being astronomical (you will lose matches PUGGING)...it can make you a better individual player. Besides it's always a great feeling to beat a 10-12 man with just a lance and PUG's.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 23 June 2017 - 07:26 AM.

[Hobbles v]

gamingogre, on 21 June 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Every time I get spawned ***** I report the team as exploiting and quit for the night. Spawn killing is unacceptable. Why has PGI allowed this? Fix the maps or remove them from a multiple waves of drops. Please understand this is non-negotiable. Fix. The. Spawn. Killing.

Finally got around to digging through my stream recordings. Here is the game in which BCMC spawn camped the OPs team question.



Few lessons that can be observed from this match.

The first wave, you guys moved up to challenge us, this was good. Even though we utterly crushed your first wave, you'll notice your second wave had plenty of time to leave the DZ and contest us in the rear of the base. Our first wave went on for another 3 minutes after we destroyed your first 12 and because you did the right thing and moved up, we never got to touch your DZ.

Notice the big difference during our second attack wave, you guys all hung back close to O-Gen 2, so this wave when we crushed you, we were already at the DZ. Also not one bit of spawn "camping" occurred until we had already killed 32, and that was a semi suicidal charge into the DZ.