465 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

nehebkau, on 27 June 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

@OP and everyone in favor of making dropships stronger. When you do this you will end up with the puggles hiding in their drop zones and the more aggressive team having to pursue them. While this will NOT be an issue in matches where you have an objective to take down and win, in matches where kills count -- like counter attack -- this will be the norm for some teams. Ask some of the stronger teams how many times they have had the full 12 hiding in their dropzone --- it happens a lot already and would get exponentially worse as bads be more bad. The ONLY way that beefing up the dropzone would work is if the people dropping in the dropzone had a certain amount of time to vacate the zone before something bad happens to them. Honestly, the best solution is to make something bad happen to both teams who enter dropzones and the team who owns the dropzone has a timer before that happens while the invaders have it happen right away. My thoughts would be increasing heat on a mech until it shuts down and explodes, giving the owners of the dropzone 60 seconds to clear before that starts to happen and attackers no time before heat starts to climb (like a flamer with no 90% heat cap).

Easiest solution to that is to make the dropships destructable after buffing them to what they should be carrying. If you can kill the dropship before it drops the mechs it's carrying, then they all die.

[RaptorCWS]

Unholy Jackson, on 21 June 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

actually it's pretty easy. You just put walls on the spawns that don't already have them, and then put up a uac10 turret that doesn't jam and has 9999 hp inside. Other games have this.

then you get killed right outside the gate of the spawn point instead of in the spawn point. those 12 seconds alive really going to sway the game when your team got rolled on the first wave?

[Grus]

gamingogre, on 21 June 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Every time I get spawned ***** I report the team as exploiting and quit for the night. Spawn killing is unacceptable. Why has PGI allowed this? Fix the maps or remove them from a multiple waves of drops. Please understand this is non-negotiable. Fix. The. Spawn. Killing.

don't let them get to the dropzone? I still think they should drop us in a overlord rather than those small ones but that's just me.

[Hal Greaves]

"Did you see that Centurion with a single gauss rifle?"

"yeah i was really confused by that"


about sums up this thread

[Jman5]

RaptorCWS, on 27 June 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

those 12 seconds alive really going to sway the game when your team got rolled on the first wave?

No it wont.

However, for me at least it's less about turning the game around then it is just having a chance to shoot something before I die. I don't like getting killed while I'm still inside the dropship. Killing a mech before he can even move takes away a sense of fairness.

You give me 5 seconds to reposition myself and I can at least fire my guns a little, torso twist, lay down a strike. I can do some damage, and maybe get a kill. If you're killing people before they can even do anything, then it begs the question: What's the point? Either the game should be over, or PGI needs to figure out some way to let players do something with their mech before being squashed.

Honestly, the simplest fix to all this would be to just make fresh drops invulnerable for 5-10 seconds unless they fire a shot. But people don't like this idea because it's too gamey.

Edited by Jman5, 27 June 2017 - 01:19 PM.

[RaptorCWS]

Jman5, on 27 June 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

No it wont.

However, for me at least it's less about turning the game around then it is just having a chance to shoot something before I die. I don't like getting killed while I'm still inside the dropship. Killing a mech before he can even move takes away a sense of fairness.

You give me 5 seconds to reposition myself and I can at least fire my guns a little, torso twist, lay down a strike. I can do some damage, and maybe get a kill. If you're killing people before they can even do anything, then it begs the question: What's the point? Either the game should be over, or PGI needs to figure out some way to let players do something with their mech before being squashed.

Honestly, the simplest fix to all this would be to just make fresh drops invulnerable for 5-10 seconds unless they fire a shot. But people don't like this idea because it's too gamey.

its pretty rare for me to see a team spawn kill a mech before their feet hit the ground. like i might have seen in once if ever.

[Jman5]

RaptorCWS, on 27 June 2017 - 01:26 PM, said:

its pretty rare for me to see a team spawn kill a mech before their feet hit the ground. like i might have seen in once if ever.

It's happened to me a bunch of times. But really the point applies to the entire part of the drop where you are unable to control your mech. People should have at least a little time to move and shoot. It wont turn games around, but it's way less frustrating.

[Simulacrum]

You could fix that problem if you set up sheltered strongholds 'Mechs have to leave. defended with turrets and the need to leave them after 35 seconds.Else you get the "out of bounds" message. So you can regroup in the stronghold without getting shot.

At the moment it is ridiculous to get dropped even when 12 enemy 'Mechs are standing around the drop zone.
"Oh, if we drop you now, you are dead before you hit the ground. Well .. good luck." o_0

[Kubernetes]

The walls just changed the nature of spawn-killing. In the past the attackers just waited outside of 450m and nailed the drops from range. Now they hide behind the walls and wait for the dropship to leave before storming the site. I wouldn't be opposed to turrets that turn on the defenders after a minute. Perhaps make the dropships linger for a while and fly circles around the dz.

[MischiefSC]

Jman5, on 27 June 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

No it wont.

However, for me at least it's less about turning the game around then it is just having a chance to shoot something before I die. I don't like getting killed while I'm still inside the dropship. Killing a mech before he can even move takes away a sense of fairness.

You give me 5 seconds to reposition myself and I can at least fire my guns a little, torso twist, lay down a strike. I can do some damage, and maybe get a kill. If you're killing people before they can even do anything, then it begs the question: What's the point? Either the game should be over, or PGI needs to figure out some way to let players do something with their mech before being squashed.

Honestly, the simplest fix to all this would be to just make fresh drops invulnerable for 5-10 seconds unless they fire a shot. But people don't like this idea because it's too gamey.

How about coming out of a dropship? Instead of being 'dropped' you spawn inside a dropship and your mech is automatically walking up to the exit. you can't choose to stay inside. However you come out, facing the enemy through one of 4 openings?

I get what you're talking about and that makes sense. You want to feel like you got to fight back. I'm all for the concept I just want to ensure people can't use it to hide somewhere safe or avoid having to fight.

The big issue is that the bulk of spawn camping is the byproduct, ironically, of people who are too scared to move up and functionally require the enemy to push into the spawn to get to them. Any solution has to be build with those people in mind.

[Commander A9]

Oh, no, please. Keep camping your own drop zone and use it to shell us! We'll give your Dropship pilots something to marvel at when they bring in the next load of salmon: your smoking wrecks!

[Appogee]

nehebkau, on 27 June 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

@OP and everyone in favor of making dropships stronger. Ask some of the stronger teams how many times they have had the full 12 hiding in their dropzone --- it happens a lot already and would get exponentially worse as bads be more bad.

True.

It's not just PUGs. You might be surprised how many times we encounter even large teams who decide to hide in their drop zones.

I even saw a large team with three full waves of Linebackers do it, a couple of nights ago, taking cheese to a whole new level.

[50 50]

The solution that adds more functionality and depth is the better path to take.
Adding turrets or some sort of self destruct has already been tried, as has trying to protect the drop zones by positioning them differently. These only provide simple, band aid solutions.
It would improve the mode and our experience to have a more complex solution that benefits the game play.

[Vxheous]

Novakaine, on 26 June 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

If the Dropships did serious damage which they should.
Spawn camping would almost cease to exist
And since Dropships are a temporary asset it couldn't be used to hide under.
Leopard Class Dropship:
2 x PPCs
3 x LRM-20s
7 x Medium Lasers
5 x Large Lasers
Damn you Dropship Dan!

I mean, that's a 160 damage dropship (60 as LRM damage), while the current dropship is 12x Large pulse = 132 pinpoint damage (since the dropship doesn't miss) I think the current 12x large pulse is way more of a deterrent than lore specced dropship (assuming you don't let the dropship have full range on all those weapons)

[justcallme A S H]

Ye cause LRM drop ships on many maps means they are shooting inside the domination zone for one thing...

[50 50]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 28 June 2017 - 12:10 AM, said:

I mean, that's a 160 damage dropship (60 as LRM damage), while the current dropship is 12x Large pulse = 132 pinpoint damage (since the dropship doesn't miss) I think the current 12x large pulse is way more of a deterrent than lore specced dropship (assuming you don't let the dropship have full range on all those weapons)

Well, with different weapon ranges and recycle times, multiple targets to shoot at, it's not like a single mech is going to cop all that damage unless they are really, really unlucky.
I'm all for the dropship having the cannon build as it's simply more interesting that 12 large lasers.

However, the walls, the dropship armament and even changing the drop zones and the terrain around them has all been done.
It simply doesn't stop a team from getting camped if they do get overwhelmed.
So, it's not that we need to actually find a way to deter it from happening, we need to put function into what it actually means to have lost control of the drop zone and that means giving the dropship pilot some brains.
To me, that means being able to capture the drop zone.
At it's simplest:

• While the zone is being contested, ie. there is an enemy mech in the area, the drop ship simply does not deploy at that location.
  
• This means that if a lance decides not to leave their location, they will also not receive reinforcements unless a lance from another zone comes to assist them.
  
• The zone get's cleared and the drops can resume.
  
• If it doesn't get cleared then we could expect those mechs to get picked off. No more mechs in that zone, the zone is captured and that lance no longer has a drop location.

That might seem a little unfair, but it does several things:

• Players are not continually thrown to the wolves and lose their next lot of mechs without getting a chance to do anything. (Which is where players feel the pain and frustration)
  
• It rewards the dominant team with an objective that can be measured.
  
• It creates an incentive for players, a mission, to assist each other in these situations which enforces the team based concept of Faction Play.
  
• We have seen how Conquest with multiple objectives creates a shifting and dynamic battle, yet a mode like Skirmish can have a very bleak outcome. By allowing drop zones to be captured, we add layers and more depth to all the modes by creating a territorial control aspect.

It's not about giving one team some weird advantage should they be completely outclassed, it's about creating a proper function behind the action.

[nehebkau]

Willard Phule, on 27 June 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

Easiest solution to that is to make the dropships destructable after buffing them to what they should be carrying. If you can kill the dropship before it drops the mechs it's carrying, then they all die.

OMG that would be so awesome!

[Leone]

First off, wouldn't be a Buff. Loreing up the dropship weaponry would be a Nerf.

Leone, on 22 June 2017 - 11:07 PM, said:

And I'd rather have that than the 'ole Twelve ER Large.

See, right now, a dropship can reach out and touch you, and only the terrain and those every helpfull dropzone walls can save you. Switch it up to Lrms, and we can ams that off. PPCs? Not hitscan, moving may finally save the day. Medium lasers? Ahh, those were the days. That'd leave, what? Five large lasers? That I can tank.

Seriously, this thing you speak of? It'll end in tears, though I would enjoy the flaming dropship wreckage. Now, mobile drop zones, locking out dropzones and rerouting the dropship, there are ideas that could work, but I feel could still be gamed.

What happens if a team drops three lights and rushes the enemy dropzone and then their remaining nine mechs start getting kills? Are you effectively locking out any reinforcements? If you do release the dropzones to be waay the heck elsewhere, are you then going to have a scattered second wave? Cuz then the Opfor could just try an catch em afore they can meet up an we're back to square one.

Remember, there'll be an intelligence that understands the mechanisms in play, trying to figure out how to use them to their advantage. Right now I feel the dropzones are fairly defensible, barring certain maps like Emerald Taiga and Tourmaline Desert, just step back from your plan an take a look at how you'd abuse it.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 28 June 2017 - 10:18 AM.

[kf envy]

just give the drop ships there proper weapon load out and have all 3 hang around the LZ for a minute

IS dropship should have 2x PPC 3x LRM20 7x ML 5xLL
and clan dropship has 2x ERLL 2xERPPC 8x MPL 2x ERSL 1x AMS 5xLRM20 w/atms 2x SSRM6

Edited by kf envy, 28 June 2017 - 11:13 AM.

[MischiefSC]

kf envy, on 28 June 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

just give the drop ships there proper weapon load out and have all 3 hang around the LZ for a minute

IS dropship should have 2x PPC 3x LRM20 7x ML 5xLL
and clan dropship has 2x ERLL 2xERPPC 8x MPL 2x ERSL 1x AMS 5xLRM20 w/atms 2x SSRM6

Sure - and let us shoot them down. They also have their firepower split over 4 (actually 6) arcs.

12 mechs would shoot one down at long range pretty easily.