465 replies to this topic

[MadRover]

Leone, on 21 June 2017 - 11:19 PM, said:

preach the truth. if youre too scared to come out and do a proper fight and coordinate even with PUGs, spawn killing is the end result. just consider it motivation

[UberoxBrow]

What about the mechs who are disconnected or rage quit or as already stated just sit and drag the game out to agro the other team.

Edited by UberoxBrox, 01 July 2017 - 11:35 AM.

[Deathlike]

I swear to god this type of thread never seems to end.

Here's the deal:

When you're stuck in spawn, the primary reason that happens is that your first wave was not accomplishing anything of consequence. You simply could not hold the enemy back. It happens, but most of the time it's because people weren't focus firing and doing their own thing (fighting from cover instead of sharing armor).

The other side to this is that when you're actually camping the dropzone for whatever reason, it has other implications:

For instance, some people stay in their dropzone needing all the protection possible from the dropship. If the dropship had a damage score and you were camping in the spawn, most likely it is doing way more damage than you. This implies you are NOT carrying your own weight and/or totally relying on non-players to do the work you couldn't do. The whole point of dropships firing is to dissuade other players/mechs from coming into your dropzone... NOT for them to do the work you couldn't do.

It's not whether you need a buffer or "safe space" at the moment... it's whether or not you get organized and NOT be in that position in the first place.

At any time that you are being spawn camped, the match is very likely over in a bad way. If you don't want to recognize that you and the team is part of the failure, well, no additions to the game can "fix" your incompetence. It's sad but true.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 01 July 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

I swear to god this type of thread never seems to end.

Here's the deal:

When you're stuck in spawn, the primary reason that happens is that your first wave was not accomplishing anything of consequence. You simply could not hold the enemy back. It happens, but most of the time it's because people weren't focus firing and doing their own thing (fighting from cover instead of sharing armor).

The other side to this is that when you're actually camping the dropzone for whatever reason, it has other implications:

For instance, some people stay in their dropzone needing all the protection possible from the dropship. If the dropship had a damage score and you were camping in the spawn, most likely it is doing way more damage than you. This implies you are NOT carrying your own weight and/or totally relying on non-players to do the work you couldn't do. The whole point of dropships firing is to dissuade other players/mechs from coming into your dropzone... NOT for them to do the work you couldn't do.

It's not whether you need a buffer or "safe space" at the moment... it's whether or not you get organized and NOT be in that position in the first place.

At any time that you are being spawn camped, the match is very likely over in a bad way. If you don't want to recognize that you and the team is part of the failure, well, no additions to the game can "fix" your incompetence. It's sad but true.

Here's the thing. KCom wins a lot. We do a lot of spawn camping. However it's not a matter of rolling the enemy -

It's about aggression. We play matches where we never get to the enemy spawn but still win the match. However the other team plays aggressive, comes right out if their spawn on the move (just like we do) and even after we roll the first wave their second wave is already moving in on us before we get to their spawn, because the first wave pushes 1500m out from their spawn.

You can get crushed 16-48 and not lose a single mech in your DZ. People get spawn camped because they hide or were too timid. You don't get to use your dropships for cover and firepower and hide in your DZ then complain when the other team comes there to shoot you.

[ShadowFire]

It would be nice if you could tell the DS pilot to drop at an alternate spawn. Or at least pick the one you want.

[Leggin Ho]

ShadowFire, on 01 July 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

It would be nice if you could tell the DS pilot to drop at an alternate spawn. Or at least pick the one you want.

So long as it's not used to once again just draw the match out or to hide and shutdown somewhere, Maybe if it was allowed until the final 5 mins of the match so it can't be abused.

[50 50]

MischiefSC, on 01 July 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Here's the thing. KCom wins a lot. We do a lot of spawn camping. However it's not a matter of rolling the enemy -

It's about aggression. We play matches where we never get to the enemy spawn but still win the match. However the other team plays aggressive, comes right out if their spawn on the move (just like we do) and even after we roll the first wave their second wave is already moving in on us before we get to their spawn, because the first wave pushes 1500m out from their spawn.

You can get crushed 16-48 and not lose a single mech in your DZ. People get spawn camped because they hide or were too timid. You don't get to use your dropships for cover and firepower and hide in your DZ then complain when the other team comes there to shoot you.

Yep.

But when the roll does happen, would you prefer to sit there waiting for the next mech to drop, camping the spawn?
Or
Would it simply be better to actually contest the drop zone which then prevents any further drops at that location, capture it and move on.

Surely in the event of a lop sided match it's better for both teams to have a plausible way to end the battle.
Yay to the victor, drove the enemy from the battle.
Yay for the defeated, we couldn't keep the enemy from our drop zone and lost that location as a result.
Everyone moves on.
No time wasted for either.
No grief from having your next mech or two dropped stupidly into a meat grinder.

Sure, some battles may not end up with losing the drop zone, but having a simple feature in place to cater for that scenario is what is needed.

[MischiefSC]

50 50, on 01 July 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Yep.

But when the roll does happen, would you prefer to sit there waiting for the next mech to drop, camping the spawn?
Or
Would it simply be better to actually contest the drop zone which then prevents any further drops at that location, capture it and move on.

Surely in the event of a lop sided match it's better for both teams to have a plausible way to end the battle.
Yay to the victor, drove the enemy from the battle.
Yay for the defeated, we couldn't keep the enemy from our drop zone and lost that location as a result.
Everyone moves on.
No time wasted for either.
No grief from having your next mech or two dropped stupidly into a meat grinder.

Sure, some battles may not end up with losing the drop zone, but having a simple feature in place to cater for that scenario is what is needed.

Except I've been spawn camped while dropping with KCom. We came back and made a win from it. I've also been spawn camped and lost; however I have absolutely no interest in having a match end before I've played all 4 mechs.

Kind of the crux of it - why let a few people who only want to play when they're winning dictate the game for everyone else?

[Ssamout]

MischiefSC, on 02 July 2017 - 12:43 AM, said:

Except I've been spawn camped while dropping with KCom. We came back and made a win from it. I've also been spawn camped and lost; however I have absolutely no interest in having a match end before I've played all 4 mechs.

Kind of the crux of it - why let a few people who only want to play when they're winning dictate the game for everyone else?

Yeah, I've also won matches were our spawns are camped. It's a legit tactic to try to farm a spawn so that you get one lance out before the last waves of mechs. I like it because it increases the tactical element of a faction play match that the normal qp/group/comp matches are missing. Usually those matches have been exciting and actually have been the one reason why I like the mode. You have to be on a look out for things like that.

[50 50]

MischiefSC, on 02 July 2017 - 12:43 AM, said:

Except I've been spawn camped while dropping with KCom. We came back and made a win from it. I've also been spawn camped and lost; however I have absolutely no interest in having a match end before I've played all 4 mechs.

Kind of the crux of it - why let a few people who only want to play when they're winning dictate the game for everyone else?

But may I ask how you did actually come back from it.
Did team mates from another spawn location hustle over to help fight back the enemy?
Or did your lance somehow, defeat the attackers?

Typically a lance is not wiped out all at the same time so they re-drop in 1s or 2s. Never a whole lance at once.
So when these players are deployed to the drop zone, it's usually against overwhelming numbers and you end up wasting one or more mechs without even getting a chance. We can't even delay the drop so we can arrive in numbers so typically you do not get a fighting chance.

So in a situation where the drop zone has been overrun, if there is the potential to lose that location as a drop zone we create an incentive for our team mates to come and assist.
If we add into the discussion the option to change our drop locations, then we bring into play another objective to re-capture the drop zone and therefore add depth to each mode.

It would only be in the situation that all three drop zones are overrun that your team would be forced from the battle.

[KHAN ATTAKHAN]

Isn't it really just a different facet of ASSAULT mode, legit in QP and legit in FP, you take their base they lose, if your dumb enough to leave your base undefended then bad luck buddy, no need for walls, turrets, sure you don't want your mommy to pilot that big mech for you as well, play a little smarter, get into private matches and practice, practice , practice, join a unit that will train you or if you are in a unit then leave it because they play dumb and join another that's smarter.

Maybe eat fish before playing, has Omega 3 oil in it, makes your brain gooderer.
LOL

[MischiefSC]

50 50, on 02 July 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

But may I ask how you did actually come back from it.
Did team mates from another spawn location hustle over to help fight back the enemy?
Or did your lance somehow, defeat the attackers?

Typically a lance is not wiped out all at the same time so they re-drop in 1s or 2s. Never a whole lance at once.
So when these players are deployed to the drop zone, it's usually against overwhelming numbers and you end up wasting one or more mechs without even getting a chance. We can't even delay the drop so we can arrive in numbers so typically you do not get a fighting chance.

So in a situation where the drop zone has been overrun, if there is the potential to lose that location as a drop zone we create an incentive for our team mates to come and assist.
If we add into the discussion the option to change our drop locations, then we bring into play another objective to re-capture the drop zone and therefore add depth to each mode.

It would only be in the situation that all three drop zones are overrun that your team would be forced from the battle.

Depends. If I'm alone, run out of the back of the spawn and buy time while my team shows up. If we lose a wave we go out the back of the spawn and group up. Then roll the enemy who was at the spawn. Then it depended on the map/strat. For example the last time I remember we went wide, mostly to the enemy spawn and drew them back from ours. They were over-anxious and we suckered them into a firing line, caught up on kills. It was on Forest so we used the lay of the land to get them split up a bit and overcame our being damaged (we were damaged destroying the last of their first wave) by better concentration of fire.

After that it was a hard fought match but we eliminated the advantage they'd had from spawn-camping us by coordinating better.

My team knows the risks of spawn camping and so when someone's getting ganked the whole team shows up to deal with it.

Because it's a team 12 v 12 game and playing as a team is what wins.

[Commander A9]

Let's say spawn-camping "stops."

You know what it's replaced with?

Your enemy occupying a choke point and gunning you down when you poke your head in there.

End result is the same: you lose.

[Deathlike]

Commander A9, on 04 July 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

Let's say spawn-camping "stops."

You know what it's replaced with?

Your enemy occupying a choke point and gunning you down when you poke your head in there.

End result is the same: you lose.

Even if that's the case, it'll just be a timer wait to the end whether or not a #safespace is constructed.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 July 2017 - 03:46 PM.

[50 50]

MischiefSC, on 02 July 2017 - 10:58 PM, said:

Depends. If I'm alone, run out of the back of the spawn and buy time while my team shows up. If we lose a wave we go out the back of the spawn and group up. Then roll the enemy who was at the spawn. Then it depended on the map/strat. For example the last time I remember we went wide, mostly to the enemy spawn and drew them back from ours. They were over-anxious and we suckered them into a firing line, caught up on kills. It was on Forest so we used the lay of the land to get them split up a bit and overcame our being damaged (we were damaged destroying the last of their first wave) by better concentration of fire.

After that it was a hard fought match but we eliminated the advantage they'd had from spawn-camping us by coordinating better.

My team knows the risks of spawn camping and so when someone's getting ganked the whole team shows up to deal with it.

Because it's a team 12 v 12 game and playing as a team is what wins.

That's a great example of team work in action, having a plan and communicating. Sounds like fun.
All the things that Faction Play is meant for.

Commander A9, on 04 July 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

Let's say spawn-camping "stops."

You know what it's replaced with?

Your enemy occupying a choke point and gunning you down when you poke your head in there.

End result is the same: you lose.

But you lose out in the field fighting, not falling from a dropship and not being able to do anything about it.
If players continue to stick their head into the same choke point without trying something else, that's a lemming problem.

Adding more defenses to the drop zones does not solve the problem.
It is more likely to have the opposite effect of reinforcing the problem and it's not adding any new depth or features.
The answer is not in trying to stop it.
I am trying to suggest that we simply need a feature added to the drop zones that turns spawn camping from the perceived 'griefing' into a proper objective that rewards dominant play while not kicking in the teeth of the losing side.

This may not be a problem KCom experiences and I would expect any of the other well drilled units to experience.
Even in battles where it is small groups and the knife edge tips in favour of one team, it can end up with spawn camping and there will be players who get dropped into a zone with absolutely no hope of survival. Even in PUG matches.

So as long as we have the drop ship continue to send helpless souls to their death we will always see these spawn camping threads emerge in the forums. (@Deathlike - spoiler alert)

Given we've got something in the works for changing our drop locations, why should we not be able to capture drop zones?

[Mycroft000]

I had a long private message conversation with Pat Kell a few weeks back, and while I understand his(and the rest of KCOM's stance) I think they're wrong.

New players to this game are frequently people who are invested in the Lore, not in the gameplay. I know that was the case for me. When I started, and was playing faction play almost exclusively(as a pug), I suffered from enough crushing defeats at the hands of KCom that I wouldn't even participate in the fight if I was grouped up against them. I ejected through my first three drops and then would find a way out of bounds for the fourth. I saw no reason to give them the rewards for my deaths because I knew that as an uncoordinated group we stood no chance.

Since then I joined a unit and have progressed to be the unit leader. As the leader of my unit I have instituted two rules for faction play:

1. We do not push drop zones(occasionally when we're on smaller QP maps like Caustic we may inadvertently end up in an enemy spawn, but that's always in small numbers and unintentional). I'm firm enough on this that I am willing and ready to lose a match over pushing to an enemy's spawn and not giving them any opportunity to actually play the game we all waited 10-20 minutes to get into.

2. If we're against pugs or smaller groups and we're in a group of 7+ we offer and honor 1v1 requests. We will do this at the risk of losing one mech to an enemy who chooses not to honor the 1v1, and when that happens, we retaliate, fall back to regroup, and let our opponent have their next wave to regroup and try again if we're on defense(if we're on offense we complete the objective and end the match).

I straight up asked Pat Kell to consider not spawn camping pugs. I couldn't care less about what he chooses to do against larger groups because that falls on them to coordinate and not simply roll over and die. But against pugs, spawn camping is not healthy for the game despite what he believes. In his words:

Pat Kell, on 13 June 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

Also, people who are not pushed do not really learn lessons all that well, sometimes even being pushed doesn't teach people anything either but at least the opportunity is there for them to take if they want it. I guess my point here is that the people who tend to get frustrated and quit tend to be the people who aren't going to learn in either situation and the people who are capable of learning often times will need to be pushed and challenged in order to rise to the occasion. I don't think I am doing them a disservice by providing that challenge, I think I am doing them a favor. And honestly, I don't care about people who are faced with some adversity and decide to quit. They are not the ones who will excel and are not the ones who will someday be able to teach me how to be better.

In the absence of PGI being able or willing to change the mechanics of the game mode to discourage spawn camping(many ideas have been provided repeatedly by the community), I feel that it is our responsibility as a community to foster a welcoming game mode to new players(for units, go for it, be relentless and brutally aggressive), if we don't do this, we'll continue to see complaints and a lack of broad appeal for the game mode that I am most interested in playing.

And finally I've got some more ideas for what PGI could do to discourage camping:

1. Eliminate C-Bill and XP rewards for kills within 500 meters of the drop zone.

2. Have drop ships avoid dropping people into "Hot LZ's," let the drop ship do strafing runs shooting its large lasers at any enemy in the drop zone until there is a clear place to land.

3. Replace second, third, and fourth drops with Drop Pods(Drop Pod - BattleTechWiki - Sarna.net) that have numerous choices for location to drop so that there is no single place that spawn camping can occur.

There are many more possibilities that would help reduce or eliminate spawn camping, but until PGI improves their game theory on designing their game modes, then as I've said before, it's our responsibility as a community to encourage players to participate in the game we all enjoy.

[Kubernetes]

You should also consider that spawn-camping is a legitimate tactic for weaker teams, just like gen-rushing. If I'm dropping solo with pugs against a big team, I will absolutely advocate pushing into their drop and perma-killing a few. There's nothing "unfair" about it; maybe it's not sporting, but sometimes you go for it to secure a win.

[Mycroft000]

Kubernetes, on 06 July 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

You should also consider that spawn-camping is a legitimate tactic for weaker teams, just like gen-rushing. If I'm dropping solo with pugs against a big team, I will absolutely advocate pushing into their drop and perma-killing a few. There's nothing "unfair" about it; maybe it's not sporting, but sometimes you go for it to secure a win.

"Unsportsmanlike Conduct" is exactly what I think should be avoided. I won't claim that my unit is at all one of the better units in the game, but if I thought our only path to victory was through unsportsmanlike tactics, then I just wouldn't play. Using tactics that aren't fun to employ and aren't fun to lose against for me means that I'm not having fun and that's more important to me than a victory that leaves my opponents having no avenue for participation in a game where we've all waited a while to get into a match.

[Kubernetes]

I'd say that if you're on an obviously weaker team, asymmetric tactics are appropriate. Kill the gens, cap their base, camp their spawns, etc.

[TWIAFU]

I know how to end spawn camping.

Make all CW modes Incursion variation. Why? Give both sides have ability to have radar, jamming, and air support.

Enemy wants to sit in base, activate Air Support and force them out or take damage to dropships.