465 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

nehebkau, on 22 June 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

FOR THE LOVE OF JEBUS!

DO NOT DROP IN FW IF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS ARE NOT MET:

1. You are dropping with at least 8 players

2. At least 6 of those players are VERY skilled at FW

3. At least 6 of those players are dropping in Meta or near Meta mechs.

4. You have a designated drop caller

5. You are ALL on coms.

If you fail to meet one of these conditions then follow this example:

ROFL in other words, dont play FW unless you rig the match in your favor before it even starts.

May as well say that you cant play QP unless your entire unit sync drops before hand....oh wait people used to do that to bypass the 4 man limit when the group queue was first implemented.

What next, refusing to play poker unless you can start every round with 2 aces in your hand, or you have a partner to signal to you what cards he has?

[MischiefSC]

Wow, nice hyperbole there Jun.

Saying "group up, bring good mechs and have someone calling the drop" *is just like cheating in poker or sync dropping in QP*.

Wait wait, I've got it! Joining a unit is just like murder! It's the same thing!

If you're going to play in FW instead of QP then bringing good mechs, grouping up and having someone call the drop should be an expectation if you want to win consistently. That is not unreasonable. That people consider not being a solo Rambo window licking nitwit in bad mechs and playing like it's T5 QP to be this insane cheating level of effort explains why so many people are so irrationally bad at this game.

Edited by MischiefSC, 02 August 2017 - 10:36 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Also, I work to end the spawn killing every match.

I find the most consistent way is to farm the other team to 48 in the shortest time possible.

[Stahlherz]

Jun Watarase, on 02 August 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

ROFL in other words, dont play FW unless you rig the match in your favor before it even starts.

You spelled "preparation" wrong.

[Starwulfe]

MischiefSC, on 02 August 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

a solo Rambo window licking nitwit in bad mechs and playing like it's T5 QP

Rambotato

[MischiefSC]

About to tell my bosses that I need to bail and go play computer games because I miss the funny nicknames and that potato farming gets me back to nature.

Also I need to redecorate my mechs with "I FARM (picture of pug in space helmet)".

[nehebkau]

Jun Watarase, on 02 August 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

What next, refusing to play poker unless you can start every round with 2 aces in your hand, or you have a partner to signal to you what cards he has?

Is that an option? If it is I'd play.


Seriously, though. One can expect that one is going to meet people in FW who take the game seriously and build their mechs and coordinate accordingly. If you are not willing to do the same then if one is not willing to do the same one will get stomped.

It would be similar to agreeing to road-race someone and having your choice of cars and they pick the Mclarin-F1 whereas you pick the AMC Pacer.

Edited by nehebkau, 02 August 2017 - 08:17 PM.

[BTGbullseye]

nehebkau, on 02 August 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

It would be similar to agreeing to road-race someone and having your choice of cars and they pick the Mclarin-F1 whereas you pick the AMC Pacer.

The Pacer can go over curbs without destroying the car though, giving it a huge advantage if the race isn't overly structured to favor the faster street-only car. (besides, you could get the Pacer with a 304 V8, and it could fly with that if you tuned it right)

That's like choosing a Commando/Locust/Spider with the best engine for a race around a mountain range, but I decided to get a Jenner IIC instead so I could go over it and beat you there while going a bit slower.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 02 August 2017 - 09:55 PM.

[Tesunie]

gamingogre, on 21 June 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Every time I get spawned ***** I report the team as exploiting and quit for the night. Spawn killing is unacceptable. Why has PGI allowed this? Fix the maps or remove them from a multiple waves of drops. Please understand this is non-negotiable. Fix. The. Spawn. Killing.

As much as I hate spawn camping, or being spawn camped... What are we suppose to do if the enemy team decides to "hide" in their spawn?

I can recall several matches where my team had to charge the enemy spawn because they wouldn't move out. Best we could do not to "spawn camp" was to kill that wave of mechs and try to back out. When the enemy team, once again, decides to spend the wave sitting in their spawn trying to "poke out"... We have to do it all over again.


I agree. It can be a problem. But there is only so much that can be done... (And from my experience, if a side has been spawn camped, it's often the end of the match anyway. As in, the last few mechs are spawning in. Most people I seem to play with/against don't like to be spawn camped either, and tend not to try to do it... Sometimes, it also just happens.)

[Mycroft000]

Tesunie, on 02 August 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

As much as I hate spawn camping, or being spawn camped... What are we suppose to do if the enemy team decides to "hide" in their spawn?

I can recall several matches where my team had to charge the enemy spawn because they wouldn't move out. Best we could do not to "spawn camp" was to kill that wave of mechs and try to back out. When the enemy team, once again, decides to spend the wave sitting in their spawn trying to "poke out"... We have to do it all over again.

I still think that the true responsibility to discourage spawn camping falls on PGI's shoulders. There are mechanics in the Battletech universe that will discourage it. And to your point of how to deal with an enemy who hides, I mentioned it earlier in the thread, use a shot clock. If a team is unwilling or unable to push out of their drop zone, then they have lost the engagement and forfeit the match.

[Skarlock]

Dead Tom Kerensky, on 22 June 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Why impenetrable spawns would be a poor idea:

1. A team can lose first wave and then just draw out the game for the full time causing both teams to just sit there for 30 minutes. Don't even need the team to do it just 1 pilot, even a disconnect can cause this. Solvable via certain checks but that's not the real issue.

2. Team A wins first fight losing 6 mechs to the other teams 12. Team B who lost first wave sits in base. At 2:30 left they exit base and since they have 12 full health mechs vs 6 full health and 6 hurt mechs team B wins that fight losing 4 mechs making the score 18 for Team B and 16 for Team A. So team B wins at the last second not by being better but by sitting in the base. If team A ejects to get new mechs so that last minute fight is even they then even the score negating the first wave completely.

I do agree the spawn points should be close together giving overlapping lines of fire on the dropships to make them more effective and allowing the team being camped to assist each other instead of fighting 12v4 until people are permadead.

First point is completely valid. Second point is not really valid. If the team that wins the first engagement has 6 mechs left they can retreat to their own spawn point. They don't have to sit at the enemy spawn point. They can just sit in the domination point, do damage to t he enemy base, damage generators, etc. Even if it's a skirmish match with no other primary or secondary objective, they can retreat to their own spawn point where vastly faster reinforcements will easily cause them to win the second fight, and third, etc. If the team that has advantage doesn't actually press that advantage to do something with it, then yes it's possible for the game to swing back on them. Simply hanging around the enemy spawn point with damaged mechs is either indicative of a vastly superior team that is confident they can kill wave 2, maybe even wave 3 on their first mechs, or hubris as they could easily retreat to a superior position or pressure the enemy team other ways (domination, cap points, etc.)

[Tesunie]

Mycroft000, on 02 August 2017 - 10:51 PM, said:

I still think that the true responsibility to discourage spawn camping falls on PGI's shoulders. There are mechanics in the Battletech universe that will discourage it. And to your point of how to deal with an enemy who hides, I mentioned it earlier in the thread, use a shot clock. If a team is unwilling or unable to push out of their drop zone, then they have lost the engagement and forfeit the match.

Some of it is on PGI, some of it is on the players (in my opinion). However, being online and how people seem to keep acting as time goes on (or so it seems), a lot of the honor codes and player concessions I use to see from players has slowly... vanished. Either that or it was just the groups I played with. (As an example, in MW3/4 online mode, there was a rather strict honor code among players to not shoot intentionally at legs. An accidental legging was okay ad understood, but an intentional, repeated legging ended up normally with that player being called out, and their victim normally being ignored by all other players as they hunted down the perpetrator themselves and repeatedly legged the offender in return... to death... many times...)

I don't mind a spawn push (as a player trying to show a little honor and to try and have everyone have fun), because sometimes it just happens or needs to be done that wave of the fighting. But I always discourage sitting in the spawns or just outside it. Often times my unit will make spawn pushes, but we will try to leave so they can respawn, set up and try to come at us again. (Typically on Alpine, for example, we will often move back behind the gates as they respawn. If they don't move out we'll rush in again if we have to.)

However, I do also agree that PGI also should be attempting ways to prevent such a case from happening as well. Whether that is having more mechs drop at once, maybe have the dropship's have some lower (under the mech's feet) armor/hit box of a hatch that opens (the hatches could provide some cover) as you drop or some such. They have a reasonable start as it is.

I do agree with many here though that the spread out spawns (and some walls) can be an issue, as an enemy team can camp a single spawn point. There are tools to prevent this from being too bad, but you would need an observant player who has "command". The trick is to cycle players as they die away from the spawn that is camped by changing their lance they are in. This causes them to spawn at other spawn points, hopefully away from the enemy. It takes a lot of work and attention to do that though...


As far as "punishing those who remain in spawn" (enemy and ally), I can see some issues with this. One issue is actually similar to what happened to a unit mate and myself just on Tuesday on Grim Portico. There is apparently a spot where you can walk out of bounds near the gates. He lost a mech there and we just presumed he may not have noticed the "out of bounds" notification. (He was really far out of bounds when I looked at my mini-map... I think...) I was fighting in that same area, and I took a step out of bounds and got the message on my screen. I stepped back into bounds, the message went away and I continued to walk away from the boundary (should have been well inside the boundary). Well... Nope. Apparently, with no notification or warning and while being well inside the boundary, I "killed myself" by being out of bounds, despite seeing the boundary behind me as well as the boundary beacon line also now being behind me. Cost me a mech on the last enemy wave (my second mech), and greatly diminished my match score (annoying, but whatever).

I present that tale mostly as a "what happens if things go wrong". It would be annoying to be attempting to leave spawn or sitting there waiting for more people to drop, only to have something damage/kill you for "sitting in spawn too long", or some bug even that may count you as inside the spawn when you may actually be outside it. It could also kinda suck to possibly be in a really slow mech (think like "stock urbanmech" speeds) and not be able to "escape the base of doom" in time because of your slow speeds.


I don't know. It's a hard one to call...

[Leggin Ho]

Once again make hiding in spawn cost the players lives and give negative C-bill if they remain in spawn more than 90 seconds, the enemy team will have no reason to push into the spawn and if the players decided to just hide there they won't be wasting the other teams time for no penalty to the players hiding and wasting time.

[Mycroft000]

Tesunie, on 03 August 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

Some of it is on PGI, some of it is on the players (in my opinion). However, being online and how people seem to keep acting as time goes on (or so it seems), a lot of the honor codes and player concessions I use to see from players has slowly... vanished. Either that or it was just the groups I played with. (As an example, in MW3/4 online mode, there was a rather strict honor code among players to not shoot intentionally at legs. An accidental legging was okay ad understood, but an intentional, repeated legging ended up normally with that player being called out, and their victim normally being ignored by all other players as they hunted down the perpetrator themselves and repeatedly legged the offender in return... to death... many times...)

I've said numerous times in this thread, that in the absence of PGI's willingness or ability to discourage spawn camping, I consider it the community's responsibility to curb the tactic. In my unit, we do not push drop zones. If we're down to the last few drops and someone is DC/AFK, we ask the enemy team if they want us to go in or wait out the clock. On smaller maps(Caustic), I've seen some of our players end up in the enemy drop inadvertently, but as soon as they realize it, they make an effort to get out. And in cases of there being one person dropping into the enemy drop zone at the end of a match where they are still fighting, I allow one person to advance to the drop zone and start fighting once the other player has engaged.

I would rather lose the match and fight with honor and good sportsmanship than to win simply so we can pad our stats. This is a game and should be fun win or lose.

Tesunie, on 03 August 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

However, I do also agree that PGI also should be attempting ways to prevent such a case from happening as well. Whether that is having more mechs drop at once, maybe have the dropship's have some lower (under the mech's feet) armor/hit box of a hatch that opens (the hatches could provide some cover) as you drop or some such. They have a reasonable start as it is.

There have been numerous ideas that PGI could implement which would discourage or even eliminate this as a problem:

Drop pods instead of drop ships, and allow those drop pods to drop you into the highest concentration of allies(should your drop commander allow that for strategic reasons)
Dynamic capture-able drop zones that require an occupier to hold the zone
Union Class drop ships that allow a full company to drop at once
Eliminating Skirmish as a FP game mode
Providing rewards based on the number of surviving enemies when you complete the objective

And I am completely sure there are hundreds of more ideas that have been posted that I've missed.

Tesunie, on 03 August 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

As far as "punishing those who remain in spawn" (enemy and ally), I can see some issues with this. One issue is actually similar to what happened to a unit mate and myself just on Tuesday on Grim Portico. There is apparently a spot where you can walk out of bounds near the gates. He lost a mech there and we just presumed he may not have noticed the "out of bounds" notification. (He was really far out of bounds when I looked at my mini-map... I think...) I was fighting in that same area, and I took a step out of bounds and got the message on my screen. I stepped back into bounds, the message went away and I continued to walk away from the boundary (should have been well inside the boundary). Well... Nope. Apparently, with no notification or warning and while being well inside the boundary, I "killed myself" by being out of bounds, despite seeing the boundary behind me as well as the boundary beacon line also now being behind me. Cost me a mech on the last enemy wave (my second mech), and greatly diminished my match score (annoying, but whatever).

"Punishments" should be limited to those who simply choose, as a whole team, not to leave their drop zone. If all remaining surviving players sit in the drop zone without advancing, or doing damage to enemy mechs, then they should be on a clock that ends the match and credits the other team with the win, and rewards them accordingly for pushing the enemy out of the engagement.

And I'm not talking about doing this as an out of bounds style "shot clock." I would want to see the forfeit timer function in a way that the clock starts when all surviving teammates are in their own drop zone and have not dealt damage to an enemy. This would have the effect of ensuring all players on the "losing" team are regrouped in one place and have an opportunity to push out as a team and make an attempt at a comeback.

I can see ways that this could be exploited, but I don't see how it is worse than what we have now. Anything that adds strategic depth to this game is good in my eyes.

[Mycroft000]

Leggin Ho, on 03 August 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

Once again make hiding in spawn cost the players lives and give negative C-bill if they remain in spawn more than 90 seconds, the enemy team will have no reason to push into the spawn and if the players decided to just hide there they won't be wasting the other teams time for no penalty to the players hiding and wasting time.

Start the clock after 4 people have dropped into that particular drop zone and I'm on board with this.

Edit: Changing my stance on this from 4 people to all remaining survivors in that lance, or have the dropship automatically take 4 pilots in at once, basically anything that keeps one person from dropping in alone to be killed on the fall.

Edited by Mycroft000, 03 August 2017 - 10:15 AM.

[Leggin Ho]

Hey something is better than nothing, so long as they are not hiding for the last 5 mins of the drop to preserve a win.

[Tesunie]

Mycroft000, on 03 August 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Stuff

I wont even dignify this with a response... Mostly because I agree with most of it.


Oh wait... This was a response. Oops.

[Mycroft000]

Tesunie, on 03 August 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

I wont even dignify this with a response... Mostly because I agree with most of it.


Oh wait... This was a response. Oops.

This seems like too civil of a discussion, I need to find some way to start an argument based off this.....

[Leggin Ho]

Mycroft000, on 04 August 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

This seems like too civil of a discussion, I need to find some way to start an argument based off this.....

LMFAO...................

[myhorseisamaz1ng]

there is simple solution: just add more erlls to the dropships and make them fly around the dropzone while reds in it.
noone want to lose 2-3 mechs for 1 spawnkill

Edited by myhorseisamaz1ng, 04 August 2017 - 11:19 AM.