107 replies to this topic

[Gaussfather]

Having played with the new skill tree concept I have to begrudgingly say that I like it except for two reasons:

1) We need to be able to save templates for our favorite skill tree combos and not have to start from scratch each time...

and more importantly:

2) The weapon skill tree really encourages people to boat even more... a well rounded build (i.e. with some lasers, 1 ballistics, and missiles -- think Atlas or Malinche) is less effective since you have to use too many skill points on the weapon tree your mech pilots like a "paper pig" (I just made that up). Or you just don't have enough DPS to compete against the meta laser vomit, LRM vomit, SRM vomit, or Dakka vomit builds...

So when I play in the PUG que I seem to just face more and more meta BOAT builds as opposed to some diversity in loadouts... how is that good for the game?

[Davegt27]

PGI is just giving people what they want

I hate the ST more now then when it started but hey adapt and over come

boating can also be a product of the mechanics of peoples computer

if you have a mouse with 3 buttons it might be a good idea to not have more the 3 weapons groups

[The Mysterious Fox]

Im a big fan of just letting people do whatever they want with their builds

[Humpday]

Boating will always be there no matter if there is ST or not. If you have the hardpoints people will naturally jam as many weapons of that type into those slots no matter what... quirks, no quirks, ST no, ST.

It is no worse than before.

Edited by Humpday, 27 June 2017 - 07:02 AM.

[Ultimax]

We told them this and we told them why Solhama's firepower tree solved it.

They not only didn't understand how that worked, as simple as it was, but continue to misrepresent it in town halls, etc.


Enjoy your skill jungle with every weapon all crammed together and limited points to invest.

Edited by Ultimax, 26 June 2017 - 08:18 PM.

[TKSax]

Gaussfather, on 26 June 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

2) The weapon skill tree really encourages people to boat even more... a well rounded build (i.e. with some lasers, 1 ballistics, and missiles -- think Atlas or Malinche) is less effective

A well round build will always be less effective in MWO because of the way the game plays not the skill tree. There is no reason to build a "well rounded" build specialized builds always work better because everything in MWO is mech on mech combat, nothing else.

[MadRover]

weapon boating has always been a thing in the mechwarrior universe unless we're talking lore wise. if you play every mechwarrior game that has a mechlab, I will guarantee weapons were boated in every mech that we can customize to our satisfaction.

[LordNothing]

you know im not seeing it. the multi purpose nature of some of the offensive nodes can affect different weapon systems. you cant spec out so they are all top notch without sacrificing nodes from other places. just grabbing heatgen, cooldown and range is good for 90% of mixed builds. on mixed assaults i dont even use much of the offensive tree at all. plenty of firepower without needing to enhance any of it.

[Pjwned]

Gaussfather, on 26 June 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Having played with the new skill tree concept I have to begrudgingly say that I like it except for two reasons:

1) We need to be able to save templates for our favorite skill tree combos and not have to start from scratch each time...

and more importantly:

2) The weapon skill tree really encourages people to boat even more... a well rounded build (i.e. with some lasers, 1 ballistics, and missiles -- think Atlas or Malinche) is less effective since you have to use too many skill points on the weapon tree your mech pilots like a "paper pig" (I just made that up). Or you just don't have enough DPS to compete against the meta laser vomit, LRM vomit, SRM vomit, or Dakka vomit builds...

So when I play in the PUG que I seem to just face more and more meta BOAT builds as opposed to some diversity in loadouts... how is that good for the game?

Yeah I know, it's really difficult to make a varied loadout with all these range, cooldown, and heat generation nodes that apply to every weapon.

You might have to give up a whole 1 or 2 nodes for laser duration or something, and that alone takes varied loadouts completely off the table.

Ultimax, on 26 June 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

We told them this and we told them why Solhama's firepower tree solved it.

They not only didn't understand how that worked, as simple as it was, but continue to misrepresent it in town halls, etc.


Enjoy your skill jungle with every weapon all crammed together and limited points to invest.

It probably wasn't implemented because it was bad, especially the part about varying amounts of firepower skills per chassis, and having a guaranteed amount of firepower skills is stupid because it removes the whole point of making choices.

In the current system, if you want more firepower nodes then you can give something else up, or conversely you can have less firepower nodes to have more of whatever else, and that automatically makes this system better than Solahma's proposal which removes that aspect just for the sake of appeasing crybabies.

I don't know why people still cling to that **** idea, just shut up about it; boo hoo this arbitrary trash idea that I uncritically accept as gospel wasn't implemented so I'm going to cry about it for months on end.

[JediPanther]

The st has helped my atlas considerable. While it sat for years as the dire whale and tw ran wild the atlas got new life with the armor tree and now with a lot of fire power tree it can once again face down a dire and tw at the same time. I run the brawler boom stick of dual lbx srm six and mpls. It take three mechs' on average to drop my atlas now.

The catapults which I made lrm and srm specialist builds are terrors. max sensor trees and mix of fire and armor on them. It's been fun trying different skills on my lights building specialist builds such as an all sensor and auxiliary tree scout or a hit and run 1v-lct lpl.

You only have to boat if the mech only has that type of weapon hard point or you play clam and choose all one weapon type.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

The game encourages boating because taking as many of the best weapon in the game is much better than taking only 1-2 of the best weapon in the game and a bunch of mediocre weapons. Skill tree has nothing to do with that.

The mechs that really get **** on by the firepower tree- those using combinations of missiles and ballistics (Atlas, Victor, Centurion), tend to benefit more from survivability thanks to heavy structure or armor quirks. Others in that situation (Scorch, Boiler) are strong enough that it doesn't really matter.

You'd think the tree would encourage boating, but I don't think there is really any conclusive evidence of it.

[Gaussfather]

Maybe I'm using the Skill Tree wrong but I tend to prioritize:

1) Armor/Durability (all but 3)
2) Speed Tweaks (enough nodes to get to them)
3) Some sensors... I like to run at least 1 seismic node if I can
4) Weapons Tree... and here I find that you really need to use a lot of nodes if you want to have any significant cooldown or heat quirks so it only makes sense to go after the e.g. Gauss/UAC/LBX & magazine capacity quirks...

So yes, boating has always been and will always be a part of MW but I just think the skill tree setup as it currently exists encourages you to focus on 1 main weapon type and to cram as many of those into your mech... unless we get more than 91 skill points or there is a redesign of the weapon tree.

Edited by Gaussfather, 26 June 2017 - 09:36 PM.

[Luminis]

Bracket builds just don't make a whole lot of sense in MWO. Never did, even though they're "lore". They're designed for a TT where you get a bit of a penalty to hit stuff in cover and where engaging at all ranges is a worthwhile benefit. You don't get that benefit when you are actually limited to shooting stuff you (or your team) has line of sight on. This allows players to engage at their preferred distance much easier. And you don't need a ton of point defence weapons when your primary weapon will do damage in meele range as well. Might make more sense to run a build that can bring almost all of its firepower to bear at all times instead of having half your weaponry be useless at all times because it covers a range you're currently not fighting at.

Better to accept that. Forcing players into crap builds because lore ain't fun.

[El Bandito]

Gaussfather, on 26 June 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

So when I play in the PUG que I seem to just face more and more meta BOAT builds as opposed to some diversity in loadouts... how is that good for the game?

We had boating spammed from Closed Beta.

[Tombs Clawtooth]

Boating has and always will be a thing in MWO.

Many mechs even in lore were total boats. I think this complaint has been overplayed and is an attempt to make a problem where there isn't one.

I don't necessarily like it, but you see, a focused build will always perform better than a jack-of-all build, just like everything else in the world.

[Tezcatli]

It's still a step over module system. Especially since they changed modules to universal.

[WhineyThePoo]

Boating will always be the premiere tactics in MWO.

(I just pulled this loadout out of mah *** as an example)
3mg
2 srm6
1 gauss
2 medium laser
1 ppc
1 ER large laser

Now that would be a ***** to manage and with effective range all over the place.
Compared to if you were running just 27 medium lasers or dual gauss/ppc or something.

Skill tree has nothing to do with it.

[DAYLEET]

The Fire Power tree is the least useful as far as im concerned. Unless your mech already has very good quirks, they dont amount to anything of value.

[justcallme A S H]

14% range increase and 10% cooling isn't beneficial in firepower tree? o.O

[Shifty McSwift]

Skill tree encourages boating less than the module system. Only by a slim margin on a relative scale, but still, it is less than it was.