677 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

The 120m makes them usable but I personally think it should be reduced to 90m. I don't think it should be removed entirely though because then I feel they would make SRMs and Steaks obsolete. I mean at 3 damage per missile, an ATM3 which is the same weight as an SRM6 will only do 75% of the damage, but unlike the SRM6, you can lock the target and your ATMs will unerringly track and hit your target. Also unlike streaks, you can actually dumb fire ATMs like you would an SRM so you don't have to worry about ECM countering you. That being the case, ATMs need a few drawbacks as well and I think 90m range is acceptable in that regards.

[Andi Nagasia]

Guile Votoms, on 01 July 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Gotta love all those clan tears over how ATMs are not the new über-streak-lurms that you can boat.

with its 180Min Range it was hurting, this had nothing to do with Clan Players wanting to keep a Crutch,

Guile Votoms, on 01 July 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

It's a new weapon system and it's a pretty good one, but it will require some practice.
It's not supposed to replace streaks, srms or lrms but simply offer a new option.

They need minimum range or they'd just become straight up better than all other missile weapons.

already disproved this,

Quote

=LRM to ATM Comparison=
ATM9.........4Crits, 5Tons, 5.2Spread, 180Min Range, does >20Dam per Volley under 360m,
C-LRM20...4Crits, 5Tons, 5.2Spread, 180Min Range, does =20Dam per Volley 180-900m,
also with Artemis(+1Crit / +1Ton) C-LRM20 gets 3.38Spread, then theres the ECM Problem,

=SRM to ATM Comparison=
ATM3........2Crits, 1.5Tons, 4.2Spread, 120Min Range, does =9Dam per Volley under 270m,
C-SRM6...1Crits, 1.5Tons, 5.0Spread, no Min Range, does =12Dam per Volley 0-270m,
also with Artemis(+1Crit / +1Ton) C-SRM6 gets 3.25Spread, then theres the ECM Problem,
And and Finally Velocity(SRM=400m/s)(ATM=160m/s),

i do think they are in a good place Min Range now, at least to go live with,
they can always be Tweaked later, the PTS only here to fix initial problems Q&A missed,
such as the 180 Min Range being too harsh, which is was,

i still would like to see Velocity increase with ATTMs & LRMs to 240,
that and to know how much health ATM missiles have, which would tell us how they fair vs AMS,

[AngrySpartan]

Viktor Drake, on 01 July 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

The 120m makes them usable but I personally think it should be reduced to 90m. I don't think it should be removed entirely though because then I feel they would make SRMs and Steaks obsolete. I mean at 3 damage per missile, an ATM3 which is the same weight as an SRM6 will only do 75% of the damage, but unlike the SRM6, you can lock the target and your ATMs will unerringly track and hit your target. Also unlike streaks, you can actually dumb fire ATMs like you would an SRM so you don't have to worry about ECM countering you. That being the case, ATMs need a few drawbacks as well and I think 90m range is acceptable in that regards.

That's what you feel, and that's numbers:

AngrySpartan, on 29 June 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

___________________ Weight/ Spread / DMG / Heat / CD / DPS / Velocity / Ammo count
SRM6+A:_____________ 2,5 /4(5-20%)_/__12 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 400 / 100
ATM6:________________3,5 /___4,2___/ 18 / 4,5 / 5 / 4 / 160 / 72
2 ATM3s:_______________3 /___4,2___/ 18 / 4 / 4 / 4,5 / 160 / 72

ATMs has no decisive advantages over SRMs!
In fact Damage/DPS is the only advantage ATMs have over SRMs and you have to pay for it with 0,5-1t more for the launcher and at least another half ton of ammo per 6 tubes. And AMS weakness on top of that which makes perceived range advantage a joke.

To this i'll add one more advantage - ATMs are suitable for hardpoint starving mechs due to bigger launchers. For every advantage they have enough disadvantages.

Considering dumbfire - PM me in game, I'll bring an ECM and you'll try to dumbfire me with LRMs. Or ATMs and I'll trust you to don't lock me. Then we'll see damage grid and amount of ammo you've spend. I bet, the result won't be that good.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 01 July 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[MischiefSC]

I'll take the Orion vs your locust, absolutely. Because, as I said, its got lasers and UACs too. Also at 3 damage/missile I only need a few of the 27 in each volley to hit you.

They hit legs a lot. Like any missile they are weak vs lights - and should be. If they were not then the 80 pt damage even 3x9 does would vape you in a salvo.

[AngrySpartan]

MischiefSC, on 01 July 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

I'll take the Orion vs your locust, absolutely. Because, as I said, its got lasers and UACs too. Also at 3 damage/missile I only need a few of the 27 in each volley to hit you.

They hit legs a lot. Like any missile they are weak vs lights - and should be. If they were not then the 80 pt damage even 3x9 does would vape you in a salvo.

Mischief, just PM me in PTS, we'll do heavy VS heavy dumbfire, ATM vs SRM and I'll record that. No kidding, PM Me

[Deathpig]

Guile Votoms, on 01 July 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Gotta love all those clan tears over how ATMs are not the new über-streak-lurms that you can boat.

It's a new weapon system and it's a pretty good one, but it will require some practice.
It's not supposed to replace streaks, srms or lrms but simply offer a new option.

They need minimum range or they'd just become straight up better than all other missile weapons.

Glad to see you didn't read the 12 page thread you jumped into that utterly annihilates your oh-so-hot take.

[MischiefSC]

AngrySpartan, on 01 July 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

Mischief, just PM me in PTS, we'll do heavy VS heavy dumbfire, ATM vs SRM and I'll record that. No kidding, PM Me

Will need to be tomorrow, I'm at work for another 8 hours at least but yeah. There's a few things I want to test on PTS in a controlled environment.

[AngrySpartan]

MischiefSC, on 01 July 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

Will need to be tomorrow, I'm at work for another 8 hours at least but yeah. There's a few things I want to test on PTS in a controlled environment.

Agreed, PM your UTC time pls.

[Rusharn]

tl;dr: SRM's, Streaks and ATM's have enough differences between the systems that each system will have its role and be selected based on that pilots needed performance of his mech.

Streaks and SRM's will not be obsolete if ATM's have zero minimum range.

Advantages:

Streaks, bone track with near perfect maneuverability, lightning speed, good range for a short range missile system at 360m, nearly immune to AMS, and are lighter with more Ammo per ton.

SRM's Fire their full volley at the same time for a shotgun splat effect, Take up less crits slots even with Artemis, are not negatively effected by ECM, allow for more precise component targeting, more ammo per ton, are nearly immune to AMS.

The ATMs as they currently stand, if they had minimum range removed, would have following the features; Short Range damage, moderate mid range damage, LRM missile tracking, built in Artemis.

Listing only the positives each one of these missile systems brings a unique advantage.

Disadvantages:

Streaks: Bone tracking does not allow targeting for specific components, cannot fire without a missile lock, vulnerable to ECM requiring active probe for best effect.

SRM's: Completely skill based targeting making hits against targets further away harder to make, short maximum range.

ATM's: low velocity stream fire makes missiles vulnerable to AMS, Low velocity stream fire with LRM tracking makes it difficult to score full volley hits on fast or maneuverable targets especially that are close, Stream fire allows damage from larger launchers to be spread easier through torso twisting aided by incoming missile warning, vulnerable to ECM requiring active probe for best effect, lowest ammo per ton putting a premium on space and weight, low shot's per ton require more frugal management of ammo during combat, largest crit requirement of the weapon systems, Hottest weapon system, longer cool down.

Each weapons system has it's pros and it's con's. The ATM's have a lot of con's that off set it's high damage at short range and users of ATM's will be having to fight hard for every point of damage.

If PGI does not want to remove the minimum range then they will have to compromise in other areas if they want pilots to use the system and have the system be effective. In order I would; significantly lower heat, more ammo per ton, more velocity, tighter spread. If those stats are not improved then the minimum range will keep the weapon from being used.

[Vlad Striker]

ATM must have built-in Artemis-IV and have no minimal range. That because they have limited homing capabilities vs sreak missiles type. It is _advanced_ missiles!

[Wintersdark]

Viktor Drake, on 01 July 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

The 120m makes them usable but I personally think it should be reduced to 90m. I don't think it should be removed entirely though because then I feel they would make SRMs and Steaks obsolete. I mean at 3 damage per missile, an ATM3 which is the same weight as an SRM6 will only do 75% of the damage, but unlike the SRM6, you can lock the target and your ATMs will unerringly track and hit your target. Also unlike streaks, you can actually dumb fire ATMs like you would an SRM so you don't have to worry about ECM countering you. That being the case, ATMs need a few drawbacks as well and I think 90m range is acceptable in that regards.

Dumbfiring ATM's doesn't work that well. They follow an arc, so when you try to lead a target and dumbfire, they arc up immediately. As well, they fly at a fraction of the speed of SRM's - 160 vs 400m/s (and nobody thinks SRM's are particularly fast), which makes it even harder to hit things. This arc makes them less effective dumbfired even against distant targets, as any forwards or backwards movement also causes only partial hits or complete misses.

The slow speed (and much lower health than SRM's) means they take massive losses to AMS even at brawl ranges.


I don't disagree with your overall point, but these things need to be considered. I'm personally of the belief that LRM style exponential damage scaling from 120-0 is a good way to go (lose that stupid cutoff point where you suddenly do zero damage) but they'll ALSO need a speed buff and/or a health increase, as AMS is MONSTEROUSLY more effective vs. ATM's than anything else. As it stands, the AMS factor is enough to ensure ATM's cannot be balanced: If they're good enough statwise to be worth taking, then the value of bringing AMS shoots skyward and more people do - this makes ATM's even more "feast or famine" than LRM's.

[Andi Nagasia]

Vlad Striker, on 01 July 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

ATM must have built-in Artemis-IV and have no minimal range. That because they have limited homing capabilities vs sreak missiles type. It is _advanced_ missiles!

right now im just looking to what would be the closes state they can be in before going live,
we dont have the numbers on the PTS to do full 12v12 test which is the real test,

personally i feel 120m Min range is a good stating place,
what matters to me now is velocity and Missile Health, Spread can always be easily changed later,
no point in having an amazingly accurate missile system they is useless vs 1AMS,

[o0cipher0o]

Did Some testing with the new min range.
They feel definitely better, but still not there.
First of all, they need a good increase in speed (at least 220/240 m/s) and missile health, i keep losing far too many missiles before they get to the enemy even when firing them under 180 meters.

Second, if we really don't want them to deal 3 dmg point blank (but i'm sure that would still be fine), further reduce the min range to 90 meters, and make it so that then the damage ramps down to 1dmg at point blank. ATMs are quite heavy and crit costly, having them become completely useles under any arbitrary range is pure BS.

[fat4eyes]

ATMs are pretty powerful as they are. ATM24 can take out assault armor in 4-5 volleys. Put them on a fast-ish medium mech that can work the ranges and won't get shot at and you have a really powerful close support mech.

[Andi Nagasia]

fat4eyes, on 01 July 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

ATMs are pretty powerful as they are. ATM24 can take out assault armor in 4-5 volleys. Put them on a fast-ish medium mech that can work the ranges and won't get shot at and you have a really powerful close support mech.

have you tested them in a live engagement, with moving targets, also was AMS present?

also ATM24 would mean you have 3shots per 1Ton/Ammo @ 14Tons of Launcher,
so 1.5Tons of Ammo(15.5Tons with launcher) +20-25seconds(ATM3-12Cooldown) to take out an Assault,
you have to stay 120-270m to stay effective, i suppose its doable but i need to run some more tests,

2xATM12 +5Tons of Ammo SCR, vs a 12ERSL NVA(1AMS) would love to test this,

[Rusharn]

Any clan medium mech that can mount any worthy number of ATM's only goes 87 kph with speed tweak. There is no way they will be able to stay at range from any worth while light mech. the ATM's is an extremely fragile weapon system. There as not been a single time were my armor is gone were a mech with machine guns has not knocked out every launcher in that component. The ATM launchers themselves need more health.

[Tesunie]

Guile Votoms, on 01 July 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

They need minimum range or they'd just become straight up better than all other missile weapons.

The hard minimum range could go, and it still wouldn't be better than the other weapon systems. Also, there are other ways to balance a weapon besides by a minimum range penalty. You could limit it's tracking strength at closer ranges. You could give it a gradient minimum range (reduced damage the closer you are when in the minimum range). You could change many things.

I'll also mention that ATMs weight more and take up more crit space compared to every other missile system. The ammo also carries less damage per ton, as well as remains weaker to AMS due to small number of missiles launched. Those are already some big counters. And I haven't even touched heat generations and cooldown, as well as lock on times, etc...

[AngrySpartan]

fat4eyes, on 01 July 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

ATMs are pretty powerful as they are. ATM24 can take out assault armor in 4-5 volleys. Put them on a fast-ish medium mech that can work the ranges and won't get shot at and you have a really powerful close support mech.

Allright, go and try that in a real game. PTS is online.

I think there is enough "sofa analytics", so here's some footage to show how "overpowered" ATMs really are. It took me almost 4 hours to record couple of good games, and that's not the experience I want to repeat anytime soon. At least it changed my mind about ATMs - even without minimum range they still will be complete garbage. Or just another LRM replacer, just a little fancier. In order to be interesting weapon ATMs:
1) need no minimum range
2) need a buff to their velocity, spread and missile health
3) need some serious reworking of trajectories - they need to be a direct fire weapon!
4) assuming all the good things will be on their place, damage could be tweaked up to 2,5 for 0-270 distance. Or distance decreased to 180, or whatever. Because terror of big damage potential is the only thing that holds PGI from making it a decent weapon.

Anyway, here's the good game. 5ERSL+NARC+2ATM3+2ATM6 Mad Dog skilled for target retention and missiles. Some comments:
1. That game was only possible because of the teammates who holded the line and enemies who refused to push. Typical LRM fire support match, only whole engagement is around 120-300m, so ATMs actually do their intended damage, which is decent
2. At 1:47 Marauder dies from ammo explosion outside LoS, so final damage is at least 150-200 higher than it should have been
3. Pay attention how missiles go all over enemy mechs, especially over Thunderbolt.


And what's typically happen when you have LRMs ATMs, notice how Atlas don't give a F* about missiles, and how useless they are against fast mechs.


Just to compare ATMs and SRMs face-to-face here's some more footage. If you can do like that with ATMs (even if minimum range will be dropped), than you probably know a lot more about the game than I do, so please share your thoughts (and footage cause I syill can't see how ATMs could be that efficient). Skip 1:49-4:27, that's just chasing weaponless Locust who refused to surrender.


Finally (sorry Mischeief, couldn't wait for you) some attempts to Dumbfire ATMs and ATMs versus AMS. Thanks a lot to Deathshead1 for assisting me.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 01 July 2017 - 02:16 PM.

[Tesunie]

Viktor Drake, on 01 July 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

an ATM3 which is the same weight as an SRM6 will only do 75% of the damage, but unlike the SRM6, you can lock the target and your ATMs will unerringly track and hit your target.

Don't forget that your whole damage is placed into 3 missiles instead of 6. On top of that, those 3 missiles move slower. Between lower missiles in the air and lower velocity, bring AMS. Those ATMs probably wouldn't do much anymore, despite all that weight and crit slots into them.

[MischiefSC]

AngrySpartan, on 01 July 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Allright, go and try that in a real game. PTS is online.

I think there is enough "sofa analytics", so here's some footage to show how "overpowered" ATMs really are. It took me almost 4 hours to record couple of good games, and that's not the experience I want to repeat anytime soon. At least it changed my mind about ATMs - even without minimum range they still will be complete garbage. Or just another LRM replacer, just a little fancier. In order to be interesting weapon they
1) need no minimum range
2) need a buff to their velocity, spread and missile health
3) need some serious reworking of trajectories - they need to be a direct fire weapon!
4) assuming all the good things will be on their place, damage could be tweaked up to 2,5 for 0-270 distance. Or distance decreased to 180, or whatever. Because terror of big damage potential is the only thing that holds PGI from making it a decent weapon.

Anyway, here's the good game. 5ERSL+NARC+2ATM3+2ATM6 Mad Dog skilled for target retention and missiles. Some comments:
1. That game was only possible because of the teammates who holded the line and enemies who refused to push. Typical LRM fire support match, only whole engagement is around 120-300m, so ATMs actually do their intended damage, which is decent
2. At 1:47 Marauder dies from ammo explosion outside LoS, so final damage is at least 150-200 higher than it should have been
3. Pay attention how missiles go all over enemy mechs, especially over Thunderbolt.
https://youtu.be/ZWcu4d_fcNQ

And what's typically happen when you have LRMs ATMs, notice how Atlas don't give a F* about missiles, and how useless they are against fast mechs.
https://youtu.be/AOJ5w0oQcjI

Just to compare ATMs and SRMs face-to-face here's some more footage. If you can do like that with ATMs (even if minimum range will be dropped), than you probably know a lot more about the game than I do, so please share your thoughts. Skip 1:49-4:27, that's just chasing weaponless Locust who refused to surrender.
https://youtu.be/L9W9dOdsh2o

Finally (sorry Mischeief, couldn't wait for you) some attempts to Dumbfire ATMs and ATMs versus AMS. Thanks a lot to Deathshead1 for assisting me.
https://youtu.be/M3O9Fpnzb4Q
https://youtu.be/qrqWORO2sck

And please tell me how to put youtube video directly in post, so I can fix it?

Quit bringing mid range missiles with short range weapons.

Try that again with cermls and a ballistic. Scorch with 2xuac10, 2cerml and 4xatms for example. Play at 200-350m or so. Urion with 1xuac10, 2ceeml and 3x9 works too.

Missiles need faster and more health. Needs a declining damage inside 120m. A bit more ammo/ton. That would be solid.