677 replies to this topic

[L1f3H4ck]

They should not have min range for 3 reasons:

The whole "tactical" thing is supposed to mean "all ranges", that's what the ATM is all about. No min range lore-wise, no min range here.

It makes things overly complicated.

Throw the Clans a bone, will ya? IS gets the better deal as is, and I'm a Steiner loyalist.

[Rogue Jedi]

trying to use ATMs I decided they were worthless for me, that does not mean they are worthless as weapons but you do much more efficent damage with SRMs or LRMs, the fact that they lock, and auto lock happens so fast means regular SRMs are far more usefull for short range, LRMs are better for mid or long range, so I cannot see a situation where I would use ATMs.

I am sure someone will find an efficent use for them but the far too spread damage makes them even more worthless than streaks for me ^{(and I find Streaks to be the most usless weapon in the game for doing efficent damage, I realy hate not having a choice where the shot goes)}

[Cy Mitchell]

From Sarna:

Quote

The Advanced Tactical Missile system (ATM) was developed by Clan Coyote from 3054 to 3060 and allows its users to choose between three different types of ammunition. ATMs also include an integral Artemis IV Fire Control System.
The standard ammo deals two points per missile, like a short-range missile, but has a longer range, albeit with a minimum due to the multi-stage nature of the missiles.
The Extended Range ammo has a correspondingly longer range, with the same multi-stage missile's minimum range, though it deals only one point of damage per missile.
The High Explosive version has a much shorter range since it trades the booster for increased power. This removes the minimum range and allows the missile to deal three points of damage.

We do not have ammo switching so this all becomes a compromise and a gray area. If we did 0-270 would be 3. 270-450 would be 2 and 450-100 would be 1. I am not in favor of a minimum range. ATMs should at least do 1 damage under the minimum. It looks weird when they fly through the target when under 120m. Metal rockets would do some damage even if they did not detonate. 1 damage per missile would not leave the Mech totally unable to defend itself when the enemy closes or sneaks up and the missiles would look better exploding against a target even if they are not doing much damage.

[Twinkleblade]

If we cant have ammo switching I wonder if we cant have just alternate fire modes. I mean ECM also has kind of a toggle disrupt and counter. For ATM we would have short and long range mode. Short range would be HE missiles(3 damage), long range mode standard and ER missiles (2 damage falls off at longer ranges).

Technically speaking its the same ammo for 1 weapon but the weapon has 2 different stats, would that be possible?

Edited by Twinkleblade, 02 July 2017 - 06:04 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Twinkleblade, on 02 July 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

If we cant have ammo switching I wonder if we cant have just alternate fire modes. I mean ECM also has kind of a toggle disrupt and counter. For ATM we would have short and long range mode. Short range would be HE missiles(3 damage), long range mode standard and ER missiles (2 damage falls off at longer ranges).

Technically speaking its the same ammo for 1 weapon but the weapon has 2 different stats, would that be possible?

That would be very possible. However, when toggling, it'd have to be an overall toggle for ALL ATMs, instead of just one.

It also might not be possible because, ya know, coding and all.... not very good on their part, not saying it's a bad thing, but it's a possible block that may stop this from happening.

[Deathpig]

Twinkleblade, on 02 July 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

If we cant have ammo switching I wonder if we cant have just alternate fire modes. I mean ECM also has kind of a toggle disrupt and counter. For ATM we would have short and long range mode. Short range would be HE missiles(3 damage), long range mode standard and ER missiles (2 damage falls off at longer ranges).

Technically speaking its the same ammo for 1 weapon but the weapon has 2 different stats, would that be possible?

This idea is really cool... you could tweak the balance on the two different launchers separately to really hone in.

[Twinkleblade]

I do not know the coding, I think if it were that easy PGI would have probably already done it. Considering clan AC was said to be a placeholder and they are still around and got some buffs in one patch. Well just throwing out ideas.

I am not a twitter warrior so someone should ask Russ

Edited by Twinkleblade, 02 July 2017 - 06:39 PM.

[Duvanor]

Scout Derek, on 02 July 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

That would be very possible. However, when toggling, it'd have to be an overall toggle for ALL ATMs, instead of just one.

It also might not be possible because, ya know, coding and all.... not very good on their part, not saying it's a bad thing, but it's a possible block that may stop this from happening.

Since we have no different types of ammo to choose from this mechanic would need some other kind of drawback. Maybe a chargeup time of 6 to 10 seconds. Otherwise firemodes are switched to optimal range all the time. A cooldown upon changing fire mode would force us to decide if we want to keep firering on approaching enemies or switch to short range early for better brawling.

[Jep Jorgensson]

Duvanor, on 02 July 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

Since we have no different types of ammo to choose from this mechanic would need some other kind of drawback. Maybe a chargeup time of 6 to 10 seconds. Otherwise firemodes are switched to optimal range all the time. A cooldown upon changing fire mode would force us to decide if we want to keep firering on approaching enemies or switch to short range early for better brawling.

In the novels, switching warheads on the ATM's do seem to take a few seconds so while not charging per-say (you cannot charge missiles) it would have the same effect and frankly, since it is Lore, it is acceptable.

[Tesunie]

I'm going to play catch up... Why can't you guys all post on my time schedule?

The Basilisk, on 02 July 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

Remember the primary feature of atms is the ability to switch to the situation apropriate ammo

Actually, current PTS annouoncement (where they announced that ATMs now have a 120m minimum) stated that ATMs and MRMs where having a side effect of being affected by Artemis. We are actually encouraged to test those weapons with Artemis on the mech, as that is suppose to be the final end statistics of the weapon. Just an FYI.

Khobai, on 02 July 2017 - 03:09 AM, said:

The important balance point is that ATMs arnt better than SRMs or LRMs inside their respective range bands. SRMs and LRMs are specialized weapons that should dominate their respective range bands. While ATMs trade specialization for versatility, they should be viable at all range bands, but not stronger than a specialized weapon.

Agreed. LRMs should be better than ATMs (even if only "slightly) at LRM specialized ranges, and SRMs should be better than ATMs at their specialized areas, but ATMs should still remain an effective weapon choice at those ranges. It should give up it's dedicated "specialization" strength because of it's multi-range tactical flexibility.

Just like MRMs should not replace LRMs at longer ranges, but also should not invalidate SRMs either in a brawl (and many reasonable suggestions to do this have been presented). It's going to be a tough balancing point for the two, but right now ATMs really need that hard minimum range removed...

[Tesunie]

REMINDER:
ATM component health is very low, and it has a lot of crit slots it takes up. This means that, once armor is gone from the location that contains them, they are very likely to take a crit it and be destroyed. Some of them (I believe the ATM3) has only around 3 health to it...

Has anyone else considered this as another step of balance that could give additional reason to remove the hard minimum range?

[Longshotcanada]

254 votes 222 for nerfing min range yup its broken

[The6thMessenger]

Longshotcanada, on 02 July 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

254 votes 222 for nerfing min range yup its broken

I voted for it to be removed.

[DaManBearPig]

Remove minimum range, allow them to be a heavy kick *** missile system (3 dmg per missile 0-270m). Increase missile health.
Tah da!
They're relevant and useable.

And if you think that's too much damage at short range, take a gander at the MRMs.

[KriegSturm]

I like the idea of mode switching, and although I don't know the coding side of things, it seems they already have a fairly robust quirk system in place. If the mode switching could tap into that the ATM could look something like this:

Default mode 1
Range 0-270
Damage per missile 3

Mode 2
+74% range ATM quirk applied
-33% damage ATM quirk applied

Mode 3
+301% range ATM quirk applied
-66% damage ATM quirk applied

I just don't know if quirks and/or bonuses are dynamic mid battle or have to be loaded in prior.

[Widowmaker1981]

DirtyMilkMan, on 02 July 2017 - 10:29 PM, said:

Remove minimum range, allow them to be a heavy kick *** missile system (3 dmg per missile 0-270m). Increase missile health.
Tah da!
They're relevant and useable.

And if you think that's too much damage at short range, take a gander at the MRMs.

Yep. Maybe even increase spread a bit so they really sandblast that whole mech, so they dont invalidate SRMs. They are already really bad as LRM replacements because of the tubes per ton.

Also, since PGI insist on making heavy lasers both short ranged and long duration, and thus will be crap forever, id like for one of the new Clan weapon systems be usable.

Remove min range on ATMs. Remove ghost heat from RACs.

[Rusharn]

something that could help reign in the system if the minimum range is removed is to reduce the range of the 3 point damage bracket, lets say we start at 220m, that way the SRM's have a 50m range over the 3 point damage bracket and see how that works.

[Widowmaker1981]

Rusharn, on 03 July 2017 - 06:32 AM, said:

something that could help reign in the system if the minimum range is removed is to reduce the range of the 3 point damage bracket, lets say we start at 220m, that way the SRM's have a 50m range over the 3 point damage bracket and see how that works.

SRMs can be aimed at components at short range, and with Artemis generally cluster damage pretty well. ATMs spread all over the place and require a lock on and as such are ruined by ECM in close (yes, they can be dumbfired, but their very low velocity makes that a really poor option). Thats enough reason for good players to take SRMs over ATMs already, nothing more needed.

[Steinkrieg]

ATMs, as implemented now, are utter garbage, as listed above by many prior posters.

ATMs are supposed to function like LRMs at range and SRMs in close. Hence the Advanced Tactic Missile name.

What I would like to see:

ATMs have the speed of SRM from 0-270m and do the 3 damage they currently have.
From 270m - 450m, split the speed of SRMs and LRMs and do 2 dmg.
From 450m - 810m, have the speed of LRMs and do 1 dmg.
Explode when hitting the 810m wall.

At least make it worthwhile to take a heavier weapon with greater ammo limitations.

What some people are missing is that ATMs can be dumb fired. They do not require a lock to activate. Maintain this feature so that they can be used like SRMs when needed. This is supposed to be a hybrid weapon that allows you to invest weight and critical slots to allow more utility in any given situation. You get into a brawl? Oh look, I have those SRMs I need. You get into a ranged battle? Oh look, I have those LRMs that can help suppress those pesky Gauss/ERPPC snipers.

Let's make the ATMs truly Advanced and truly Tactical.

[Damnedtroll]

They need to arc more for long range or follow terrain... and go faster