147 replies to this topic

[ShooteyMcShooterson]

Rhialto, on 30 June 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

• UAC/20
  
  • Fixed Ammo tuning to appropriate amount, 21 shots per ton, 9 per half ton

What kind of math is this? Should be 10 per half ton.

Edward Hazen, on 30 June 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

It is same as Clan UAC20 ammo now (without the magazine skill).

What I don't understand is why the IS UAC20 only gets 3 shells per shot and Clan has to use 4.

I think the firing time (how long it take to fire the shells which comprise a shot) of these weapons needs to be included in the weapon stats, so that players have a full understanding of how these weapons work.

Edited by ShooteyMcShooterson, 01 July 2017 - 03:12 PM.

[Genesis23]

Mister Blastman, on 01 July 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Heavy PPC needs 15 damage pinpoint or it is pointless.

Light Gauss needs charge function removed.

ATMs need minimum range removed.

heavy ppc - agree

light gauss - maybe shortened, but not removed. the charge function makes sense, given the way a gauss rifle works, and makes the weaponsystem unique

ATM absolutely need a minimum range, othervise they will be way too strong. they would easily outshine streaks, srm and lurms at the same time, making those other weapons obsolete and pointless. in fact they allready outshine them. fill a stormcrow with them and its as op as when it used streaks, even worse. 3dmg per rocket is insanely powerfull with the size of the salvo and the cooldown and this alone basically kills most of the lights instantly, cores mediums instantly and easily killes many heavies while still be fast enough to dodge return fire. this weapon system alone makes so many mechs pure pain to play with, which should not be the case in a game like this.

[Kaptain]

Genesis23, on 01 July 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

heavy ppc - agree

light gauss - maybe shortened, but not removed. the charge function makes sense, given the way a gauss rifle works, and makes the weaponsystem unique

Agreed on HPPC also. Just give it 15 damage. It's big and heavy after all.

Light gauss has a good fire rate now. Would like to test 10 damage.

[Koniving]

Litago, on 01 July 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

"The point is that you can just fire them back to back in exactly the same way"

And my point is that your videos showcase a potential 60 damage alpha, and I am arguing for a 32 damage alpha. A 32 damage alpha that weighs 18 tons and uses 6 slots more than a normal dual Gauss setup which has an alpha of 30 damage (Yes, 2 points of damage for 18 tons and 6 slots.)
And why shouldn't they make an exception for Light Gauss? Keep the 2 Gauss limit, but raise the Light Gauss limit to 4, and no, you can't mount 4 Light Gauss and 2 Gauss (Because thats literally impossible no mech has the hardpoints and slots) and the same goes for 2 Heavy Gauss + 2 Gauss (Which is besides the point, we're talking about Light Gauss). And why do you want to stop people from going 2 light gauss + 1 normal gauss? Is 31 damage OP, but 30 is not?

You keep using anecdotes about your performance with shooting them consecutively, and sure thats great for you, be exited about your Marauder that somehow has 4 ballistic hardpoints, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed. Yes, I can shoot consecutively, but do hard limits and build restrictions make for a fun game? They don't. What they do is hinder meme builds and extreme min maxing to be overly effective, like 3-4 Gauss.

(Mauler), I might have mistakenly said Marauder.

I can shoot 2 Light Gauss + 2 Light Gauss in rapid succession at a firing rate about equal to something between an AC/2 and an AC/5.

Does restricting builds make it fun? I suppose that's a good question with many answers.

Is it fun to fire 3 or more Gauss at once and completely annihilate your helpless enemies? Damn right!

However you must also consider counter play. Does letting you fire 6 Gauss Rifles make the game fun for the other player?


Two delivers 10 or so damage every 3 or so seconds, out to 600 meters, instantly delivered or pretty close. Now when you start churning 10 then 10 then 10 then 10 or whatever the case might be and you've basically got a Gauss machine gun that makes it fun for you and gives them a chance.

Or you can have an insanely heavy death cannon. Sarna says they do 8 damage each, so that's 16 then 16 then 16 then 16 in a seemingly never-ending stream if you're pretty good at firing them consecutively. They only seem to need between 2 and 3 seconds to cool off. My first run with quad Light Gauss netted me quite a few kills and about 600 damage with no backup weaponry. Whether it's 16 damage per volley at about or greater than 2.5 times the firing rate of Gauss or 30 damage per volley, they work just fine with just 2 charging at a time.

My point to your point is you can either have a long pause between shots by alpha'ing them, making the game fun for no one, or you can have an insanely fast Light Gauss machine gun that keeps nailing enemies faster than they can twist, making it fun for you and fun for them...til they die, but at least they will feel like they had a chance.

Edited by Koniving, 01 July 2017 - 03:31 PM.

[Koniving]

Wence the Wanderer, on 01 July 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

From Sarna

While the Heavy Gauss Rifle is extremely powerful, it also suffers from a number of drawbacks. The heavy projectile fired by the rifle experiences a significant loss of velocity, so it is weaker at greater distances. At medium range, the damage output is slightly reduced. Once at long range, the velocity loss becomes far more dramatic, with this reduced damage being halved.


In other words - that heavy gauss would not be doing it's full damage (MWO's optimal range) at 6 hexes.

The long and short is the tabletop version does 25 up to 180 meters, 20 up to 360, and 10 up to 600.

On the first page I put a proposition which would let it go out to 1440, do decent damage but be weaker than the standard Gauss at 600 meters, but still have damage going out to beyond the standard Gauss's range (not that it would be worth the ammo).

[grendeldog]

ShooteyMcShooterson, on 01 July 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

What I don't understand is why the IS UAC20 only gets 3 shells per shot and Clan has to use 4.

I think the firing time (how long it take to fire the shells which comprise a shot) of these weapons needs to be included in the weapon stats, so that players have a full understanding of how these weapons work.

If the IS UAC20 worked like the IS UAC5 - one full damage bullet followed by a second full damage bullet if doubletappled - it would be pretty overpowered. Being able to doubletap 20 + 20 damage into an opponent would pretty much ensure that any mech with two such weapons would instantly kill enemies with an 80 damage pseudo-alpha (the time between shots being equal to how fast you can double click a mouse would virtually guarantee you'd still hit the same component with the second volley). So single-shot UAC20 is not viable.

How then to differentiate the IS UAC 10 and 20 from their clan counterparts? Clans are supposed to do more damage but with a longer duration, hence why the clan UACs shoot multiple projectiles. In keeping with the IS having heavier guns that take up more slots but do damage that is pinpoint as opposed to spread it was decided to use the multiple-round mechanic but reduce the number of rounds by 1 for each weapon.

Does this make more sense now?

Edited by grendeldog, 01 July 2017 - 04:10 PM.

[Mechwarrior4670152]

Koniving, on 01 July 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

The long and short is the tabletop version does 25 up to 180 meters, 20 up to 360, and 10 up to 600.

That WAS the point I was making... yes.

[Edward Hazen]

ShooteyMcShooterson, on 01 July 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

What I don't understand is why the IS UAC20 only gets 3 shells per shot and Clan has to use 4.

I think the firing time (how long it take to fire the shells which comprise a shot) of these weapons needs to be included in the weapon stats, so that players have a full understanding of how these weapons work.

I just clearly shows that "balance" is not the intent of these changes, IS is clearly favored and it won't stop until people start playing primarily IS Mechs.

grendeldog, on 01 July 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

If the IS UAC20 worked like the IS UAC5 - one full damage bullet followed by a second full damage bullet if doubletappled - it would be pretty overpowered. Being able to doubletap 20 + 20 damage into an opponent would pretty much ensure that any mech with two such weapons would instantly kill enemies with an 80 damage pseudo-alpha (the time between shots being equal to how fast you can double click a mouse would virtually guarantee you'd still hit the same component with the second volley). So single-shot UAC20 is not viable.

How then to differentiate the IS UAC 10 and 20 from their clan counterparts? Clans are supposed to do more damage but with a longer duration, hence why the clan UACs shoot multiple projectiles. In keeping with the IS having heavier guns that take up more slots but do damage that is pinpoint as opposed to spread it was decided to use the multiple-round mechanic but reduce the number of rounds by 1 for each weapon.

Does this make more sense now?

No, Clan and IS versions of the weapons are supposed to do the same damage in the same amount of time.

Edited by Edward Hazen, 01 July 2017 - 04:18 PM.

[TorinZ]

Just some of my thoughts...

MRMs- with the artemis upgrade on, seem fine. So lets hope that spread or a better one goes in production.

LtPPCs- I like them. Though I thought the ghost heat would have been set at 4 and not 3 since firing 2 of them would equal 1 normal PPC for damage. But, I can deal with it if they stay at 3.

SnPPC- I think a little more optimal range on them would be nice. Maybe 360 meters, but they can leave the max range to show the faster falloff.

HPPC- doubt I will ever use. Just seems like I have better options to choose for the damage. I doubt I would even use them at 15 PPD like some have been asking for.

RACs- I was pretty excited about them before PTS, but after PTS I am wondering how they would really work out for the gameplay. I have a build setup where I have 4 ErMediums for the peaking game, and 2 RAC5s when the enemy makes a mistake. But I think there are probably better builds. RACs get hot pretty quick so I wonder if the spin up is even necessary for balance. Or, let it start shooting on trigger pull but it slowly ramps up to full rotation and DPS after a second or 2.

HGauss- Built a Mauler around 2 of them to try out, was fun, but I think 2 MRM40s ended up being more entertaining while allowing bumping the engine to a LFE.

LtGauss- after the last update it felt better. I think they could probably go to 10 dmg and keep the current cool down and charge up mechanic.

The rest were what I expected. I do not use streaks, so didn't try. MGs were fine though I always want more range. The rest of the Ers for IS, I am sure I will have ErMediums on a lot of mechs. LBX, didn't try, Ultra's worked as expected. Rockets, if I ever have 1.5 tons left that I wouldn't put towards more ammo or DHS, yeah I might put one on if I have a free missile slot.

The new clan items, I will let the clanners talk about those. I just prefer running IS mechs. I did try them out though and ATMs are probably the most interesting addition. Heavy lasers would have been better if they provided a Solitaire to try them with.

[Lionheart2012]

The first issue that I have noticed is that, on the Highlander Heavy Metal (HGN-HM), 2 RAC/2s do not appear to stack on the right arm. Additionally, while in game, only one of the mounted RAC/2s appears in the weapon readout.

[Litago]

Koniving, on 01 July 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

(Mauler), I might have mistakenly said Marauder.

I can shoot 2 Light Gauss + 2 Light Gauss in rapid succession at a firing rate about equal to something between an AC/2 and an AC/5.

Does restricting builds make it fun? I suppose that's a good question with many answers.

Is it fun to fire 3 or more Gauss at once and completely annihilate your helpless enemies? Damn right!

However you must also consider counter play. Does letting you fire 6 Gauss Rifles make the game fun for the other player?


Two delivers 10 or so damage every 3 or so seconds, out to 600 meters, instantly delivered or pretty close. Now when you start churning 10 then 10 then 10 then 10 or whatever the case might be and you've basically got a Gauss machine gun that makes it fun for you and gives them a chance.

Or you can have an insanely heavy death cannon. Sarna says they do 8 damage each, so that's 16 then 16 then 16 then 16 in a seemingly never-ending stream if you're pretty good at firing them consecutively. They only seem to need between 2 and 3 seconds to cool off. My first run with quad Light Gauss netted me quite a few kills and about 600 damage with no backup weaponry. Whether it's 16 damage per volley at about or greater than 2.5 times the firing rate of Gauss or 30 damage per volley, they work just fine with just 2 charging at a time.

My point to your point is you can either have a long pause between shots by alpha'ing them, making the game fun for no one, or you can have an insanely fast Light Gauss machine gun that keeps nailing enemies faster than they can twist, making it fun for you and fun for them...til they die, but at least they will feel like they had a chance.

Are you reading my posts? No, 6 Gauss is impossible due to weight and slots. Like I said, 3-4 Gauss should not be possible, and it isnt, which i NEVER disputed, in fact I literally said that it was designed that way for a reason.

HOWEVER: Light Gauss has a LOWER DPS than a normal Gauss rifle. The 4 Gauss KDK or DWF deals almost TWICE the damage AND has higher DPS than 4 Light Gauss, the Light Gauss only excels at extreme ranges.

The numbers you use are all pretty much bogus with no real meaning and is anecdotal evidence. If the Light Gauss had a 2.3 second cooldown like you're implying ("2.5 times the firing rate of Gauss"), then yeah I would agree. It does not however. It's cooldown is 3.75 seconds, and it has a charge time on top. And before you say "Cooldown quirks/skills", the other Gauss benefits from them too, to a greater degree even.

"My point to your point is you can either have a long pause between shots by alpha'ing them, making the game fun for no one,"
So what, just remove normal Gauss Rifles? And the AC20? And PPC's? And Heavy Gauss Rifles? Because you alpha those weapons. And I find it fun. But you say nobody does?


Please don't respond until you've read this post, and read the Light Gauss rifles stats, calculated their dps, and compared them to normal Gauss Rifles.

Edited by Litago, 01 July 2017 - 06:26 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

ShooteyMcShooterson, on 01 July 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

What I don't understand is why the IS UAC20 only gets 3 shells per shot and Clan has to use 4.

I think the firing time (how long it take to fire the shells which comprise a shot) of these weapons needs to be included in the weapon stats, so that players have a full understanding of how these weapons work.

Because the IS version weighs 15 tons and takes up 10 slots.

Clan version is 12 tons and 8 slots.

[Koniving]

Litago, on 01 July 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Are you reading my posts? No, 6 Gauss is impossible due to weight and slots. Like I said, 3-4 Gauss should not be possible, and it isnt, which i NEVER disputed, in fact I literally said that it was designed that way for a reason.

HOWEVER: Light Gauss has a LOWER DPS than a normal Gauss rifle. The 4 Gauss KDK or DWF deals almost TWICE the damage AND has higher DPS than 4 Light Gauss, the Light Gauss only excels at extreme ranges.

The numbers you use are all pretty much bogus with no real meaning and is anecdotal evidence. If the Light Gauss had a 2.3 second cooldown like you're implying ("2.5 times the firing rate of Gauss"), then yeah I would agree. It does not however. It's cooldown is 3.75 seconds, and it has a charge time on top. And before you say "Cooldown quirks/skills", the other Gauss benefits from them too, to a greater degree even.

"My point to your point is you can either have a long pause between shots by alpha'ing them, making the game fun for no one,"
So what, just remove normal Gauss Rifles? And the AC20? And PPC's? And Heavy Gauss Rifles? Because you alpha those weapons. And I find it fun. But you say nobody does?


Please don't respond until you've read this post, and read the Light Gauss rifles stats, calculated their dps, and compared them to normal Gauss Rifles.

You get one shot from across the map within 20 seconds of the game starting and tell me if you find it fun; this is the reason the Gauss Rifles got the charge restriction in the first place. River City was terrible about this. And we don't alpha those weapons. You get punished for two AC/20s being fired at once with 600% additional heat. You have a twin charge restriction with Gauss and Heavy Gauss as well. I fire them consecutively. Two then two. The same way I showed you that you could fire the Light Gauss Rifles to even greater effect.

Stats:
Cooldown: 3.75 (-.375) = 3.375 seconds.
Standard Gauss cooldown: 5 seconds (-.05) 4.5 seconds [Whatever happened to the 7 second cooldown they kept talking about? )
Max range: 1500.
Standard Gauss max range: 1320.
Health: 10
SG health: 10

So.
Twin Gauss: 30 alpha. Every 4.5 seconds.
Quad Light Gauss: 32 alpha, every 3.375 seconds.
Note this isn't including charge time. Obviously. I don't know what the charge time is for the Light Gauss other than it's super quick, as in I've accidentally fired several times when trying to cancel the charge by releasing prematurely. Quite a bit of team damage has resulted from this; tap the Gauss and intend to not fire or cancel fire -- oops, killed a teammate.

So in 13.5 seconds the Quad Light Gauss could deliver 128 damage.
In 18 seconds, the twin Gauss can deliver 120 damage.

By the time the Light Gauss hits 18 seconds, it'll do 170 damage according to the Ratio Calculator on Calculator Soup. So it's a third faster at delivering damage instead of 2.5 times (which it would have been close to this if Gauss Rifle still had its talked about 7 or 8 second cooldown time).

A lot of **** can happen in that 4.5 second difference. The game is how it is, ghost heat and charge restrictions are the way they are. I never said I thought it was fair or right. I just said suck it up, learn how to fire consecutively, and tried to show you how to do it so that you could stop crying and just kill things. Now stop fussing like a kid, wipe the tears from your eyes, grab your four Light Gauss Rifles and start Killing ****. Stop expecting the game to hand you the easy wins just because you wanna boat more than is ever canonically used, and don't expect the game to coddle you or hold your hand just because the restrictions touched you the wrong way. It's time to suck it up, realize things aren't fair, and add skill to your pallet so that you can, at least, say you earned your keep.

Edited by Koniving, 01 July 2017 - 08:10 PM.

[ThiefofAlways]

PGI, for laser AMS to be viable you need to reduce the heat a lot more to perhaps 1. If not there is no way you had run it in this day and age with all the LRMs running around. It will never let you cool down with how you have heat dissipation set to not cool while weapons are firing or jumping. Even as it is now a single L-AMS will shut you down because in heavy LRM fights you cant cool off.

[BlueWizi]

Mineirinho, on 30 June 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

Hi PGI,

Thank you so much for your quick revew of some pilots reports.

Let's see what I have for you (if it's redundant from my last one, pardon me":

1 - When using more than 4 MRM, the mechbay alert of heat is: "Firing More than 4 SRM..." steady of "Firing more than 4 MRM..."(I tested with MRM30, but the others probably has the same issue);

2 - When MRM is depleted, the message still being "SRM ammo depleted" steady of "MRM ammo Depleted" (I tested with MRM30, but the others probably has the same issue);

3 - The Rotary warning of ammo depleted still not enabled;

4 - The Rotary load before start shooting now has an acceptable time in both versions 2 and 5. Good Job.

5 - The IS S-SRM warning of ammo depleted still not enabled ( I tested with IS S-SRM6);

6 - When using more than 1 rocket, the mechbay alert of heat is: "Firing More than 1 SRM..." steady of "Firing more than 1 Rocket..."(I tested with MRM30, but the others probably has the same issue) - With IS-S-SRMs, the information is well configured;

7 - When using more than 3 Rotaries, The Alert advisor in the Mechbay is say: "Firing more than 2 @ui_loadout_warning_heatscale_group_11 simultaneously...";

8 - Chain Fire not working in Rotary;

9 - Cosmetic: better the laser colors distinction between lasers, er lases, heavy lasers;

10 - Clan Laser AMS still with the AMS design. The IS Laser AMS is with the correct design;

11 - When firing IS LBX weapons in chain fire mode, the fourth sound is different from the other three sounds;

I am going to update the post until see more issues.

--- Weapon Keys in my opinion ---

1 - MRM weapons are well balanced;
2 - Heavy and Light Machine Guns are well balanced;
3 - Rotary has some type of ghost heat when firing it for the multiple times even if you are cool, this must be ajusted but if it's to be, it's not clear what we can not do to get the ghost heat;
Steps to reproduce:
3.1 - Include 2xRotaryAC2 (it is happening with AC5 too);
3.2 - Start shooting until they became jammed (in the same keyfire);
3.3 - Release the key, wait at least one become not jammed and start fire again, do not stop firing;
3.4 - After the second rotary become not jammed and start the firing, you get a very high increase of heat and overheating so fast;
3.5 - This behavior not occurs in the first sequence of shoots, but , after the first dual jammeing.

4 - The ATM weapons are too overpowered in my opinion, so much damage, I done 630+ damage in 3 mechs with 2x ATM12;
5 - All heavy lasers are well ajusted;
6 - All new PPCs are well ajusted;
7 - The LAMS appears to not heat so much now, but I tested with 1 LAMS, I must test in the KTF


Thanks again and Good Job.

Dude, did you not pay any attention when the PTS came out? PGI said they have not done new voice lines or corrected all in game text for the new tech. What you're complaining about has already been addressed.

[BlueWizi]

Appuagab, on 01 July 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

Tweaking stats won't help ATMs. They are complete garbage because they are just LRMs with slightly altered stats. This game DOES NOT NEED MORE LRMS. This game needs LESS LRMS. Fix ATMs' mechanics or clans are going to get completely cucked in upcoming update.

ATMs are not indirect dire. They aren't like LRMs. They're meant to be used at mid-range where they to 2 or 3 damage per missile. They just happen to also be able to fire out to LRM ranges if you need them to. But again. They don't arc, so you can't indirect fire them. You need LOS.

[corpse256]

Okay so my only question if any developer or Matt answer this. Since I've played the PTS I've noticed the UAC10s and 20s are the same as the clan, I can understand for balance issues but (always a but), is it possible at this point to give these two weapons the IS treatment? Meaning instead of firing the burst fire rounds would they get the standard treatment like the UAC 5s? Now I know pushing players to keep the idea to not out way the standard AC20 as a pin point damage heavy close range weapon, but would it be possible to have it as a faster shooting AC20 with single rounds but with a high chance of jamming in between shots and a slower firing speed from its clan counter part(same way with the 10). Because of now, I'm sure other players feel the same way, that when firing this weapon it feels like a Clan based weapon just assembled for the IS side. I'm fine with this idea that it stays as is, because eventually IS mechs get clan tech. I guess you could counter that in saying that clan LBXs fire the same way as IS but its just a shotgun blast. Sorry if I shoveled my question away while throwing out arguments. But just would like to hear reasons behind it or if any plans to change this.

Other than that just keep up the good work guys, I have mixed feelings about the new ATM attack bracket being 150m instead of the 90m. But I'm sure it needed an adjustment, but I was thinking more along the lines of 100m-120m area, but whatever your figures show you from our game tests and whatever data you collect I'm confident the development team will make the right decision if need be to go through it with a weapon pass. Liking the new content so far and can't wait to get my hands on my birthday presents with the live version. Great work guys.

[corpse256]

ThiefofAlways, on 01 July 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

PGI, for laser AMS to be viable you need to reduce the heat a lot more to perhaps 1. If not there is no way you had run it in this day and age with all the LRMs running around. It will never let you cool down with how you have heat dissipation set to not cool while weapons are firing or jumping. Even as it is now a single L-AMS will shut you down because in heavy LRM fights you cant cool off.

or just turn it off and it will cool. Adjusting the heat would just make it better than the standard AMS(I'm not saying tweaks are not needed, just take it into consideration). It should have a draw back instead of taking the ammo type one you would have to take that heat penalty for massive use of the weapon. Means rewarding players that chose to take that ammo type one with sacrificing tonnage to insure there is ammo for the AMS would give it a leg up instead of taking a heat penalty. Just remember to keep in mind that if you save weight something has to give. If heat was lowered too much it would make taking the standard AMS not worth anyone's time. PGI wants players to make critical decisions when making choices of what combat roles you should take into the game. Always was a huge process of mechwarrior and I hope it continues down this hardcore and fun part of the game.

[StormDll]

Mister Blastman, on 01 July 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Heavy PPC needs 15 damage pinpoint or it is pointless.

Light Gauss needs charge function removed.

ATMs need minimum range removed.

Eah, and ClanERPPC need 15 pp damage | 15 heat

[Aramuside]

xeraphin, on 01 July 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

No, it was just against 1 LAMS at around 250m, more than half of my 24 ATM tubes were shot down by a single LAMS. Even LRMs would have done better as they are less affected by AMS

Thanks, I wonder if they were running the nodes to boost them. Will have to experiment.