66 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

UAC/20 doesn't have any capability the cUAC/20 doesn't

absolutely wrong. it fires less bursts. that makes it way easier to hit with all the bursts and thus youre more likely to do the weapon's full damage.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 03 July 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

absolutely wrong. it fires less bursts. that makes it way easier to hit with all the bursts and thus youre more likely to do the weapon's full damage.

Not appreciably so against moving targets, and against bigs the difference is nil.

Next?

[Khobai]

Quote

Not appreciably so against moving targets, and against bigs the difference is nil.

still wrong. certain IS mechs still get some pretty hefty ballistic quirks.

combine those quirks with less bursts and the ISUAC20 ends up being way better than the CUAC20.

so clans are in the right to complain about how bad the CUACs are compared to the quirked ISUACs. especially the 20.

the problem with IS players is they tend to forget they still have some mechs with amazing weapon quirks while clans have virtually no weapon quirks.

so when clan and IS tech is very close, IS ends up getting the advantage due to quirks.

Edited by Khobai, 03 July 2017 - 01:39 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Khobai, on 03 July 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

still wrong. certain IS mechs still get some pretty hefty ballistic quirks.

combine those quirks with less bursts and the ISUAC20 ends up being way better than the CUAC20.

so clans are in the right to complain about how bad the CUACs are compared to the quirked ISUACs. especially the 20.

the problem with IS players is they tend to forget they still have some mechs with amazing weapon quirks while clans have virtually no weapon quirks.

so when clan and IS tech is very close, IS ends up getting the advantage due to quirks.

In the previous MechWarrior games, too, the pros and cons went like this:

IS weapons are heavier and less damage dealing but faster cooldown and less heat.

Clan weapons are lighter and more damage but hotter and slower cooldown.

With these quirks, we're seeing a imitation of that for some IS mechs. Some clan mechs may be buffed, but overall IS mechs get more than the clans, simply put.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 03 July 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

still wrong. certain IS mechs still get some pretty hefty ballistic quirks.

combine those quirks with less bursts and the ISUAC20 ends up being way better than the CUAC20.

so clans are in the right to complain about how bad the CUACs are compared to the quirked ISUACs. especially the 20.

the problem with IS players is they tend to forget they still have some mechs with amazing weapon quirks while clans have virtually no weapon quirks.

so when clan and IS tech is very close, IS ends up getting the advantage due to quirks.

Quirks do not factor into the balance of the weapon itself, which is why they get tweaked so often and the weapons do not.

So, again, next?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 July 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Not appreciably so against moving targets, and against bigs the difference is nil.

Next?

I notice people say that Clanners always talk about their drawbacks without making note of the benefits, but what is really going on is that IS players always talk about Clan benefits, leave out the drawbacks, then when talking about their own weapons leave out the benefits and talk about their drawbacks while simultaneously saying that the clan drawback is irrelevant.

You just said above that having a lower shell count/lower duration is mostly irrelevant, when factually it matters quite a bit, infact all of the game's faction vs faction balance is based on IS having lower durations and clans having longer durations and weapons are tossed aside or top meta due to the face time they require, with PPFLD being top tier, IS LPLs being exceptional, and things such as the CERLL and the heavy lasers being garbage.

Yeonne Greene, on 03 July 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

Quirks do not factor into the balance of the weapon itself, which is why they get tweaked so often and the weapons do not.

So, again, next?

Quirks definitely factor into the balance of the weapon itself because quirks exist in gameplay, if we do not take them into account then IS will have entirely superior weapons and mechs due to the guns being equalized in a vacuum then thrown onto mechs that ramp up the ability.

If we were to balance weapons without factoring in quirks at this point we'd have to entirely remove quirks then start over only giving quirks to the worst mechs instead of things like the Warhammer and Roughneck running around buffed up.

Edited by Dakota1000, 03 July 2017 - 02:10 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 03 July 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

I notice people say that Clanners always talk about their drawbacks without making note of the benefits, but what is really going on is that IS players always talk about Clan benefits, leave out the drawbacks, then when talking about their own weapons leave out the benefits and talk about their drawbacks while simultaneously saying that the clan drawback is irrelevant.

You just said above that having a lower shell count/lower duration is mostly irrelevant, when factually it matters quite a bit, infact all of the game's faction vs faction balance is based on IS having lower durations and clans having longer durations and weapons are tossed aside or top meta due to the face time they require, with PPFLD being top tier, IS LPLs being exceptional, and things such as the CERLL and the heavy lasers being garbage.

Factually, It doesn't, and that you think it does displays you do not know the weapon you are talking about well at all, likely because you've been avoiding it like the plague (as have most of us) and have only picked up the IS version on PTS because it's new and shiny.

You are not going to be effective against a moderately quick target using either the isUAC/20 or the cUAC/20 because both have a long enough burst that trying to get all of the damage into one spot is equivalently difficult. Just look at a pair cUAC/10; is that effective against moderately fast targets, even with a 250 meter velocity advantage? F*cking no, it isn't. cUAC/10 are only good when massed with other ACs or paired with something else to overcome their deficiencies in accuracy. It is the exact same story with both UAC/20. Where both are good is against a slow moving target that isn't going to be able to dodge the shells and isn't twisting away the damage, otherwise you are just being inefficient and should have taken a standard 20 or even a Gauss.

This is the same type of conversation we had about asym shielding. Like asym shielding, the UAC/20 works great against bad players. Fantastically. You won't see it in comp, though, not at 270 meters and not when you can just hammer out an SRM volley in less time and immediately spread that 20.

TL;DR: you are arguing from a position of assumed player incompetency which, by itself, is an incompetent argument.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 03 July 2017 - 02:31 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 July 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

Quirks do not factor into the balance of the weapon itself, which is why they get tweaked so often and the weapons do not.

So, again, next?

A little too aggressive there, I said imitation, not exactly the same thing. Just adding my two cents into what Khobai said, and the way I'm seeing it.

You're more than welcome to argue a point though, being that is, IS UACs 10 and 20 shoot one less shell than the Clan versions, just saying.

Edited by Scout Derek, 03 July 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Scout Derek, on 03 July 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

A little too aggressive there, I said imitation, not exactly the same thing. Just adding my two cents into what Khobai said, and the way I'm seeing it.

You're more than welcome to argue a point though, being that is, IS UACs 10 and 20 shoot one less shell than the Clan versions, just saying.

Uh, no offense meant here, but that was a direct reply to Khobai. And don't take this the wrong way, but what you wrote was not in mind at all with my reply.

[Scout Derek]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 July 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

Uh, no offense meant here, but that was a direct reply to Khobai. And don't take this the wrong way, but what you wrote was not in mind at all with my reply.

I'm pretty sure I saw a reply to my post... but okay

(Could be me though, shifting between looking at stuff and then the forums )

Edited by Scout Derek, 03 July 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 03 July 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Quirks definitely factor into the balance of the weapon itself because quirks exist in gameplay, if we do not take them into account then IS will have entirely superior weapons and mechs due to the guns being equalized in a vacuum then thrown onto mechs that ramp up the ability.

If we were to balance weapons without factoring in quirks at this point we'd have to entirely remove quirks then start over only giving quirks to the worst mechs instead of things like the Warhammer and Roughneck running around buffed up.

PGI doesn't balance the weapon to the quirks. They balance it to a vanilla state and then adjust the quirks when a 'Mech is shown to be overperforming. Which is why the AC/10 is still garbage and why it took three years to re-adjust the heat on the standard Medium Laser.

And you are being short-sighted. The point is to remove the quirks at every opportunity. That's what the goal is when you balance the equipment. If you don't do that, you are maintaining an ad-hoc system of buffs and debuffs that requires a large amount of time and effort to track and change.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 July 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Factually, It doesn't, and that you think it does displays you do not know the weapon you are talking about well at all, likely because you've been avoiding it like the plague (as have most of us) and have only picked up the IS version on PTS because it's new and shiny.

You are not going to be effective against a moderately quick target using either the isUAC/20 or the cUAC/20 because both have a long enough burst that trying to get all of the damage into one spot is equivalently difficult. Just look at a pair cUAC/10; is that effective against moderately fast targets, even with a 250 meter velocity advantage? F*cking no, it isn't. cUAC/10 are only good when massed with other ACs or paired with something else to overcome their deficiencies in accuracy. It is the exact same story with both UAC/20. Where both are good is against a slow moving target that isn't going to be able to dodge the shells and isn't twisting away the damage, otherwise you are just being inefficient and should have taken a standard 20 or even a Gauss.

This is the same type of conversation we had about asym shielding. Like asym shielding, the UAC/20 works great against bad players. Fantastically. You won't see it in comp, though, not at 270 meters and not when you can just hammer out an SRM volley in less time and immediately spread that 20.

TL;DR: you are arguing from a position of assumed player incompetency which, by itself, is an incompetent argument.

The CUAC20 was one of my favorite weapons to use before the jam nerf struck and sent the thing to the garbage. I would put the CUAC20 on an Adder and hunt assault mechs with it, often trading my 35 ton weight for a couple hundred tons worth of enemy mechs. Of course the CUAC20 isn't going to be optimal for fighting lights, but having less projectiles will make it better at that job and also better against more skilled people in heavier mechs who know to torso twist.

I'm saying that neither of them is great at the job of hitting hard to move targets, but the IS one is statistically better, 3 is less than 4 when it comes to making your shots, meaning it has a 25% shorter duration, would you rather have a laser with 0.75 second duration or one with a 1 second duration if you are dealing with a light mech?

I mean, you're just arguing over some facts here, 3 shells is easier to hit with than 4, or are you going to start telling me that heavy lasers are great and that the CERLL was fine at 2 second duration?


People still bring many weapons that aren't great against light mechs such as all the lasers people use with longer durations than the UAC20, In comp people will bring gauss and PPC, sure I'll agree with that, but in Faction Play IS is rather prone to running into a brawl and crushing the enemy team, usually with a wave of Atlases thrown in. Atlas with LFE to move faster and a UAC thrown in instead of an AC20 along with the AC20 provides them with some rather high damage with a rather low chance of seeing light mechs, which would get vaporized by the SRM cloud anyway. Assuming IS even goes for killing the enemy instead of running rocket launcher boat Javelins right to the gens.

Standard AC20 damage potential is half that of a UAC20 and gauss is even lower, both of which have very low potential DPS in comparison and the Gauss is more fragile and explosive. It gains the extra range, but otherwise a UAC20 would be the best choice for a FW invasion force.


I'm arguing from a point of assumed player incompetency since players aren't always perfect, even at comp levels, as we saw in the regional finals:


I see quite a few misses, it took well over 10 seconds to take out that Kodiak with a team of comp players all firing at him out in the open with gauss and PPC, and even CUAC10s...

Besides that I'm mostly thinking of the balance in faction play rather than comp play, as I find faction vs faction balance to be an entirely pointless topic if we aren't actually having faction vs faction matches. FW is entirely different from comp and the overall skill level of many players is lower. Going from AC20 to UAC20 provides a massive damage boost there, even RAC5s could be a useful weapon for holding the line against incoming enemies there.

Yeonne Greene, on 03 July 2017 - 02:45 PM, said:

PGI doesn't balance the weapon to the quirks. They balance it to a vanilla state and then adjust the quirks when a 'Mech is shown to be overperforming. Which is why the AC/10 is still garbage and why it took three years to re-adjust the heat on the standard Medium Laser.

And you are being short-sighted. The point is to remove the quirks at every opportunity. That's what the goal is when you balance the equipment. If you don't do that, you are maintaining an ad-hoc system of buffs and debuffs that requires a large amount of time and effort to track and change.

I'm just being realistic here, PGI doesn't really balance all that well in the first place, we can see bad mechs having quirks nerfed, Kodiak-3 coming out with quirks with the KDK-1 having none, the initial PTS for new tech, the current heavy ppc "buffs" the machine guns and flamers for years, what they just did to the small lasers, and ever other bit of imbalance in the game that leads comp meta to just be PPC and Gauss.

I doubt entirely that PGI will actually start a campaign to remove all the quirks they possibly can any time soon, so I'm only basing new tech and IS ability in general off the quirks they currently have, there's always one mech on the side that has some combo of quirks and mounts that are better than the rest, infact just look at the Roughneck that came out recently and tell me that the energy boating one isn't great. Armor and Structure quirks, shield arms on both sides, high mounted torso hardpoints all over. No one has even mentioned the thing, quite similar to the Dragon but now with better mounts and more energy hardpoints and more armor/structure but 5 tons heavier so at least some balance between them in FP.

I'm simply using my foresight here and looking back at the PGI track record, my sight may seem short sighted, but its only because PGI goes so slow that even looking far ahead there aren't many sweeping changes except every couple years.

[El Bandito]

Grus, on 03 July 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

add in the fact that the IS shots do all it's damage in one shell, where clans do the same damage over a few.. pinpoint/spread. I think we keep the jam chance and fire one shell.. then I'd be happy.

IS UAC10 and UAC20 are burst fire. They are not FLD.

[El Bandito]

Garageguy, on 03 July 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

El Bandito... we get it. you don't like Clan tech.... clan tech is OP.. blaa blaa blaa. It is apparent to everyone what side you butter your bread. Why can't there be a discussion?

Im a Merc; I dont follow any faction. All I care about is cross faction balance, so if I see dumb comment I point it out. Simple as that.

[Scout Derek]

El Bandito, on 03 July 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

Im a Merc; I dont follow any faction. All I care about is cross faction balance, so if I see dumb comment I point it out. Simple as that.

[Tarl Cabot]

J0anna, on 02 July 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

Of course the IS fans here aren't mentioning the part where IS UAC's don't have ghost heat (and have a lower jam chance and lower jam time, but lets not bring facts into it) while the Clan UAC's do. The King Crab is a beast with 2xUAC 20's without ghost heat, so the IS UAC's aren't very bad at all.

This is PTS. PGI has not noted that they will NOT have ghost heat. It is likely not on PTS to see how many will be used per mech, or the limit has not been hit. In the same line as there are different GH levels for other weapon systems between Clan and IS.

But I am not going to cross my fingers and have them cramp up.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 03 July 2017 - 05:47 PM.

[El Bandito]

Scout Derek, on 03 July 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

MS goes to the highest bidders. That means Liao for IS and Smoked Jags for Clans.

[Khobai]

Quote

Quirks do not factor into the balance of the weapon itself

of course they do

if they didnt then IS wouldve had no need for weapon quirks in the first place

the whole reason IS got weapon quirks previously was to help make up for the tech disparity

so naturally when PGI starts balancing the weapons better themselves, but leaves weapon quirks how they are, IS ends up with an advantage. As is the case with the ISUAC20 and why its so superior to the CUAC20. Theyre not even close to equal if you factor in quirks.

Edited by Khobai, 03 July 2017 - 05:59 PM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 03 July 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

of course they do

if they didnt then IS would have no need for weapon quirks

Ideally only lower performing IS/Clan mechs should have weapon quirks. If tech is balanced on both sides then top IS mechs shouldnt need ANY quirks to compete with top Clan mechs. That is not the case, which means cross faction tech still favors Clan side.

[Khobai]

Quote

Ideally only lower performing IS/Clan mechs should have weapon quirks. If tech is balanced on both sides then top IS mechs shouldnt need ANY quirks to compete with top Clan mechs. That is not the case, which means cross faction tech still favors Clan side.

Well the new tech isnt live yet. But once the new tech goes live theyre going to have to take another look at quirks.