50 replies to this topic

[Rusharn]

Personally I think the Hvy gauss's charge time needs to match that of a normal gauss. With all it's other draw backs it really doesn't need that one.

[Khobai]

None of the gauss rifles should have chargeup.

The whole point of sniper weapons is to be able to snapshot, taking that ability away from gauss was ridiculous.

The reason PGI added chargeup was to prevent gauss from snapshotting so you couldnt sync it up with PPCs as easily.

But if PGI linked gauss and PPCs in the same ghost heat group, there would no longer be a reason to prevent gauss from snapshotting, because you could no longer fire gauss and PPCs together.

[Stinger554]

Khobai, on 13 July 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

None of the gauss rifles should have chargeup.

The whole point of sniper weapons is to be able to snapshot, taking that ability away from gauss was ridiculous.

The reason PGI added chargeup was to prevent gauss from snapshotting so you couldnt sync it up with PPCs as easily.

But if PGI linked gauss and PPCs in the same ghost heat group, there would no longer be a reason to prevent gauss from snapshotting, because you could no longer fire gauss and PPCs together.

This Gauss should not have charge up mechanic at all.

[Rusharn]

I don't know. Having recently being using a twin gauss PPC build, I think if the gauss did not have a charge time they would be too easy to use with the PPC. I also run a twin gauss + 2 x cerll on my marauder IIC-D and the charge works fine in combination with the cerll's burn time. I like the skill level necessary to capitalize on the weapon system.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 13 July 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

The whole point of sniper weapons is to be able to snapshot, taking that ability away from gauss was ridiculous.

Neither in real life nor videogames is this true. The point of sniper weapons is to be able to hit the enemy outside his ability to respond, suppressing his ability to fight through attrition and the destruction of morale.

There is a reason why video game sniper weapons are often effectively useless until you zoom and and, often, only once you've ceased any meaningful motion. Snap-shots with sniper rifles is the domain of games like Quake and Halo, games whose play style is the antithesis to what it seems the community wants for MechWarrior, judging by the comments around here including your own.

[Khobai]

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Neither in real life nor videogames is this true

Of course its true in real life. No sniper in their right mind would ever use a weapon that has a delay before it actually fires. Because snipers often have a very small window to take shots in, especially if theyre on overwatch for friendly troops. Precious seconds matter.

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There is a reason why video game sniper weapons are often effectively useless until you zoom and and, often, only once you've ceased any meaningful motion

ok so give Std Gauss a minimum range like it has in tabletop. then its useless at shorter ranges. thats still way better than the completely awful chargeup mechanic. And its more faithful to tabletop. Std Gauss having a minimum range would also make Heavy Gauss better than Std Gauss inside its minimum range, and Heavy Gauss needs some advantages over Std Gauss. Same with Light Gauss, if Std Gauss has a min range, and Light Gauss doesnt, then theres more of a reason to use Light Gauss.

the only reason gauss has chargeup is to try and desync it from ppcs. but that can be accomplished just as easily by linking gauss and ppcs in the same ghost heat group. the chargeup mechanic is simply unnecessary. gauss was never overpowered on its own, it was only ever overpowered in conjunction with ppcs.

chargeup is a bad mechanic. its always has been a bad mechanic. and there are far better ways to balance the gauss rifle so it cant sync with PPCs.

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Snap-shots with sniper rifles is the domain of games like Quake and Halo, games whose play style is the antithesis to what it seems the community wants for MechWarrior, judging by the comments around here including your own.

There is no antithesis. The only problem I have is the combination of gauss and ppcs. But by linking gauss and PPCs in the same ghost heat group that problem is eliminated.

PPCs could also get a much needed velocity buff too. Because the issue of gauss and PPCs being synced would be completely gone. You would no longer be able to time your gauss and ppcs to fire simultaneously.The ghost heat would be so unbearable that you would have to fire them half a second apart.

And Heavy Gauss might actually be useable without chargeup instead of the garbage flinger it is now. ISUAC20s dont have to charge up and they completely destroy heavy gauss. Heavy gauss cant compete like that.

Edited by Khobai, 14 July 2017 - 01:08 PM.

[MechaBattler]

I found the Heavy Gauss only useful against Assaults and slower heavies. Against anything with speed and agility. It was a hell of time with that long charge up. That's why I'm surprised they gave it another draw back with the recoil. Though that I didn't find as bad as the 11 crit slots and long charge up or the low ammo count for that matter.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 14 July 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

Of course its true in real life. No sniper in their right mind would ever use a weapon that has a delay before it actually fires. Because snipers often have a very small window to take shots in, especially if theyre on overwatch for friendly troops.

Sure they would, as long as they can ultimately control where the projectile is going and the resulting effect on the target is as desired. Being able to make a snapshot is, of course, better, but it is not strictly necessary.

It all depends on what type of targets you are trying to deal with. The mid-range cover by a DM against infantry would place greater emphasis on snapshots. Anti-materiel or extreme-range fire from a proper sniper doesn't. MechWarrior, by its very slow nature, does not place a great deal of emphasis on snap-shots even as close as 300 meters, which is why a 'Mech like the Night Gyr just absolutely destroys with Gauss rifles. Removing the charge just makes it that much better, even without being able to fire the ER PPC in sync. The lack of charge is the only thing that gives the Summoner poptart a reason to exist, and is the only thing that allows the Summoner to actually triumph over the Night Gyr.

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ok so give gauss a minimum range like it has in tabletop. then its useless at shorter ranges. thats still way better than the completely awful chargeup mechanic. And its more faithful to tabletop.

the only reason gauss has chargeup is to desync it from ppcs. but that can be accomplished just as easily by linking gauss and ppcs in the same ghost heat group. the chargeup mechanic is simply unnecessary. gauss was never overpowered on its own, it was only ever overpowered in conjunction with ppcs.

It is a 5 PPFLD difference between 2x Gauss and 1x Gauss + 2x PPCs and, for the Clans, weights the same. If you have a problem with the latter, you will have a problem with the former. Even a pair of Gauss with a single LPL replacing the ERPPC on the NTG will be essentially the same in terms of effectiveness.

Desync from PPCs is not the only reason, though. The other reason is because the Gauss was obsoleting the AC/20 without the charge, because being usable across almost three times the distance with only 1 heat and with the fastest natural projectile in the game is far and away more valuable than the one ton savings and five extra damage on an AC/20. Even with the Gauss explosion. Even with the charge, the Gauss remains more popular for most of the same reasons.

Giving it a minimum range would partially solve the redundancy of the AC/20, but it's also completely unintuitive that a projectile flying out at just under Mach 6 somehow does zero damage below some arbitrary range. Even less intuitive than the charge-up. We could make it so it flat-out won't fire, and that could work as long as the minimum range is something like 180 meters or so, but that would be a new mechanic for PGI.

And I don't give one single damn about being faithful TableTop. I care more about being faithful to the spirit of the fluff because that is what defines BattleTech IP, not the game rules.

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chargeup is a bad mechanic. it always has been a bad mechanic. and there are far better ways to balance the gauss rifle so it cant sync with PPCs.

All I see here is opinion. Charge-up has been in many videogames throughout the decades, and only in MechWarrior have I seen such adamant complaining against it.

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There is no antithesis. The problem I have is the combination of gauss and ppcs. But by linking gauss and PPCs in the same ghost heat group that problem is eliminated.

When you distill it down, your problem is the ability to so quickly neutralize a target, which is what sniper rifles do and what snap-shot sniper rifles do the best. And that doesn't go away just by making it less efficient to fire PPCs with Gauss, especially considering the distance involved and the existence of alternative configurations that get you most of the way there already.

[Khobai]

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It is a 5 PPFLD difference between 2x Gauss and 1x Gauss + 2x PPCs and, for the Clans, weights the same.

Except I dont have a problem with either of those. its combinations like x2 Gauss + x2 PPCs that I see as a problem.

30-35 PPFLD is perfectly fine with the new skill tree. Its when its 40-50+ PPFLD that it becomes a problem. Thats what overwhelms the armor system.

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Desync from PPCs is not the only reason, though. The other reason is because the Gauss was obsoleting the AC/20 without the charge

Except I said give Gauss a min range. Then the AC20 is not obsoleted.

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but it's also completely unintuitive that a projectile flying out at just under Mach 6 somehow does zero damage below some arbitrary range.

No its not. You could easily come up with a "lore" reason for it. Like its impossible for the computer to calculate a firing solution at shorter ranges because the projectile is too fast. I believe thats the reason battletech used. It certainly makes far less sense for PPCs to have a min range than Gauss, both from a balance standpoint, and a lore standpoint. And yet PPCs have a min range... so why not Gauss?

And like I said, giving gauss a min range helps better define the roles of heavy gauss and light gauss. Because suddenly those other gauss variants have an advantage over std gauss. It no longer completely overshadows them.

And the reality is Heavy gauss is simply never going to complete with ISUAC20 as long as it has that ridiculous chargeup. It will get dominated by UAC20s every single time. So its time to get rid of chargeup for the sake of Heavy Gauss, its got enough strikes against it as is.

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All I see here is opinion. Charge-up has been in many videogames throughout the decades, and only in MechWarrior have I seen such adamant complaining against it.

Because the mechanic is used wrong in MWO. Thats why people are adamantly against it.

You dont put chargeup on sniper weapons because sniper weapons need to snapshot. period. And certainly the Heavy Gauss needs to snapshot because the thing is useless with a chargeup.

You put chargeup on weapons like miniguns. Its fine on the rotary autocannon for example. Or it would be if they ever get its dps/jamming sorted out. Or you put chargeup on weapons like fusion cannons/bombast laser that are meant to be used at short or medium range. But you dont put it on sniper weapons.

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When you distill it down, your problem is the ability to so quickly neutralize a target, which is what sniper rifles do and what snap-shot sniper rifles do the best. And that doesn't go away just by making it less efficient to fire PPCs with Gauss

30 PPFLD isnt a problem though. dual guass was never a problem.

the problems started when gauss and PPC started being used together in an abusive way. And thats when PGI took action to nerf gauss with chargeup.

So yes the problem does go away if you make it less efficient to fire PPCs with Gauss. Because that was the whole problem PGI sought to prevent in the first place by adding chargeup.

So yeah. Remove chargeup on all gauss rifles. Give gauss a min range. Link Gauss and PPCs for ghost heat. And now heavy gauss is more viable, light gauss has a stronger more flexible role, Gauss/PPC abuse is completely gone from the game and as such PPC velocity can be increased, and the frustration of chargeup is gone from the game.

Edited by Khobai, 14 July 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[Stinger554]

Khobai, on 14 July 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

So yeah. Remove chargeup on all gauss rifles. Give gauss a min range. Link Gauss and PPCs for ghost heat. And now heavy gauss is more viable, light gauss has a stronger more flexible role, Gauss/PPC abuse is completely gone from the game and as such PPC velocity can be increased, and the frustration of chargeup is gone from the game.

I completely agree that this is a better method to handle Gauss and PPC interactions than the current charge-up mechanic. As charge-up on the Gauss is a load of bull.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 14 July 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

Except I dont have a problem with either of those. its combinations like x2 Gauss + x2 PPCs that I see as a problem.

30-35 PPFLD is perfectly fine with the new skill tree. Its when its 40-50+ PPFLD that it becomes a problem. Thats what overwhelms the armor system.

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30 PPFLD isnt a problem though. dual guass was never a problem.

the problems started when gauss and PPC started being used together in an abusive way. And thats when PGI took action to nerf gauss with chargeup.

That abusive way was when, according to you? Because from most of what I've read on this forums, that started in earnest in 2013 with 6x PPC Stalkers, continued on to 3x PPC + 1x Gauss Highlanders, and even includes the 2x PPC + Gauss CTF-3D, VTR-DS, and TBR-S poptarts. Nerfs even continued after giving a PPCs ghost heat limit of 2 and before any 'Mechs capable of doing 50 with armor were released (read: before Clans), meaning PGI saw 35 as abusive. They even nerfed standard ballistics in response because the charge-up on Gauss was unsuccessful.

And the point I was driving at is if you nerf 1x Gauss + 2x PPC with ghost heat, you give the Clans the only viable option to pop-tart for 30 since the IS rely entirely on being able to fire at least one Gauss with two PPC of some flavor to do it with even remotely the comparable performance (1x Gauss + 1x ER PPC + 1x LPPC at 25 tons and an LFE vs. 2x cGauss at 24 and a cXL). If you want to only nerf 2x Gauss + 2x PPC, then I'm on board with that.

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Except I said give Gauss a min range. Then the AC20 is not obsoleted.

"Except" I said that was why PGI did it, as in that's part of the history and not speculation on what happens if we undo the charge today, making this particular part of your comment non-sequitur. I also addressed exactly what you said following that bit. Please read the words that were written and stop scanning through it and then thinking you know what it said without having actually read it.

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No its not. You could easily come up with a "lore" reason for it. Like its impossible for the computer to calculate a firing solution at shorter ranges because the projectile is too fast. I believe thats the reason battletech used. It certainly makes far less sense for PPCs to have a min range than Gauss, both from a balance standpoint, and a lore standpoint. And yet PPCs have a min range... so why not Gauss?

Yes it is unintuitive. It's not a lore thing, it's an "I know this is a solid slug coming out of my gun at Mach 6 yet it does nothing" problem. You can suspend the disbelief with a PPC because most people don't know what a particle beam really is (actually a whole bunch of subatomic projectiles) or how it works, but not really because people still know it's arbitrary. Bullets, on the other hand, people know quite well. As I said in the post, which you evidently did not read completely, it's fine if you want to put a hard block on the Gauss to stop it from firing at all when pointed at something less than 180 meters away. That makes total sense, and is even in-line with the fluff about targeting difficulties (though the bit about too fast of a projectile is complete nonsense, it's really about the tracking gimbal mounting the weapon being too slow or the target data not refreshing fast enough to keep up with changes). A similar thing could have and should have been done for PPCs.

But it's not okay to let it fire and deal no damage.

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And the reality is Heavy gauss is simply never going to complete with ISUAC20 as long as it has that ridiculous chargeup. It will get dominated by UAC20s every single time. So its time to get rid of chargeup for the sake of Heavy Gauss, its got enough strikes against it as is.

The Heavy Gauss is never going to compete with any AC/20 even without charge-up because it requires you to run a 'Mech with an inferior engine that makes you slower, less armed, and/or less cooled. Period. The charge is the least of its worries. If you really cared about helping it out, and I'm not convinced you do because all of your suggestions beat around the bush and read as slaved to the TableTop experience, you would be lobbying to have its range increased and/or for PGI to make an exception and remove a critical slot from its requirements.

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And like I said, giving gauss a min range helps better define the roles of heavy gauss and light gauss. Because suddenly those other gauss variants have an advantage over std gauss. It no longer completely overshadows them.

Sure it does, because not every role is created equal and some drawbacks simply don't do much to hurt a weapon because of that. Like increased cool-down time on the cERPPC. Does absolutely nothing to it, it was a heat-limited weapon anyway.

The true reality is that MWO has too many weapons for the number of niches it contains. Look at the crunch going on with lasers in the short-range bracket; seven lasers all trying to essentially do the same thing because that is the only thing that wins at that range. And if I recall correctly (and I might not be), you said it yourself in another thread: the niche for LGauss ought to be for 'Mechs that can't take full Gauss. Well, make it 10 damage. Now it's useful for its weight. Done. The end. No additional changes necessary to LGauss.

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Because the mechanic is used wrong in MWO. Thats why people are adamantly against it.

You dont put chargeup on sniper weapons because sniper weapons need to snapshot. period. And certainly the Heavy Gauss needs to snapshot because the thing is useless with a chargeup.

You put chargeup on weapons like miniguns. Its fine on the rotary autocannon for example. Or it would be if they ever get its dps/jamming sorted out. Or you put chargeup on weapons like fusion cannons/bombast laser that are meant to be used at short or medium range. But you dont put it on sniper weapons.

You can go tell that to Valve or Blizzard, both of which have charge mechanics on their sniper rifles in their games (TF2, Overwatch) that prevent you from immediately taking a snap-shot when scoping in and which work very well, and those are games where snap-shot capability is even more important.

Why should I bother to take non-sniping weapons when my sniper weapon can do the same job just as well in addition to its primary duties?

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So yes the problem does go away if you make it less efficient to fire PPCs with Gauss. Because that was the whole problem PGI sought to prevent in the first place by adding chargeup.

It doesn't. I just blow you away using some combo of PPCs and AC/10/20 and a Snub-Nose PPC, none of which generate the amount of heat that would be necessary to gimp firing 2xPPC+Gauss.