224 replies to this topic

[STEF_]

razenWing, on 05 July 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

200 posts ago, I made about my forray into the realm of Gods and Monsters. I don't think adapted poorly, in fact my average match score has gone up season by season despite climbing that ladder.

But as I was staring at my arsenal of 100+ mechanical yesterday, I realized... Wow I am not enjoying this... Like at all.

If you want to do good consistently, brawl is basically dead in high tier game. Nobody got to that stage without the most effective method, which from the beginn8ng of time, has always been to shoot before you get shot back. Even if it's boring as hell, at the end of the day, you just have to land one more shot than the other side, right? That's why top teams like EMP never pushes, but rely on their impressive shooting skills to make a mockery of poptarting.

Note, I'm not bashing those guys. They play the hand they're dealt, and they can make pocket Queens work better than every other suckers.

My point... so going to Solo que, you stick to that range wack a mole game and there's basically like a few meta builds that will f you the least even if you have trash teammates. Needless to say, as much as I like EBJs... having my life revolve around one mech is just no fun with other hundred mech sitting in the bench. In lower ques, before people get the necessity of meta, people are more willing to try wacky builds that often time, means cqc (w a lot more lrms, downside)

High tier games, none of that noise... Just... Boring.

I mean, I could always drop in groups. But let's set aside the tonnage limitation and you don't want to always hog the tonnage and/or people need to be online, you go in there with finally... You diverse builds, your fun builds, and because you work in a team , they work out great!!

Till you run into those EMPs tier comp teams. And you realize, crap, outside of running the exact same meta yawn builds and lose a slower more competitive death, you are just going to get trashed otherwise.

So either you play their game, make your game no fun, but at least have a chance every single game...
Or
You play your game, your team is good enough to win against everyone except you will be trashed every 2 to 3 games because of meta try hard.

All this culminate to my exhaustion toward the gameplay. Again, this is not to blame the super teams. Plenty of wannabe teams do the same thing and get trashed. They just play their pocket Queens better than everyone else. That's not their fault that the game is the way it is. But I do blame PGI for not introducing modes or maps to break up deathball or range... And/or not limiting twitch reflex skills over strategic decision making.

But even that's getting old. No point blaming PGI when they won't do a thing about it. Everyone is just OK with being satisfactory because there's always s9meone they can beat up on. Emp laughs every time there's less sjr 9n the other side... Vice versa so on and so forth... No one really cares because of the status quo. New mech is just an excuse to see how well it can adapt to the meta instead of the other way around. Yawn

you are not aware that tiers have nothing to do with skills.

It's a simple xp bar, the more you play the faster you can fill it.

And yes, let's blame PGI A LOT about this. A LOT!

[Paigan]

razenWing, on 05 July 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

[...]

If you want to do good consistently, brawl is basically dead in high tier game.

[...]

I consistently see that many, many people have a tbh totally wrong, naive, dumb idea of what a tactical shooter is.
I come more from tactical games (Starcraft and the like).
As soon as tactics get involved, all those "romantic" notions of heroic brawling die out.
Efficiency is what counts.

The best tactic is where you obliberate your enemies without ever getting hit.

Meaning any combination of
- intel
- range
- cover
- terrain (e.g. using choke points. If you don't know what a choke point is - which applies to like 90% of MWO players, tbh - google it)
- firing lines
- suppressive fire
- stealth
- if need be deathballing, but that's already borderline "too much action", because you are not fully in control.

- oh and, of COURSE: boating weapons/units if possible. Because it is EFFICIENT.

Look at Starcraft:
The most efficient tactic is something like outranging the enemy with a ball of siege tanks.
Or a deathball of Marines&Medics.

I never understand why people can even think about complaing about deathballs or boating or using range. That which is tactically elementary is in some ridiculous way not accepted by those people. And that despite playing a TACTICAL game.

Sorry to say that, but anyone who thinks brawling or mixed builds or NOT using cover/range are good or desireable or fun things is just a dumb suicider. A gambler who storms forward mindlessly and MIGHT come out as the victor or might as well just get picked off by a properly established enemy firing line before doing even one shot.

THAT, turning all the variables of combat in one's favor so that ideally one wins without ever getting hit, is tactical play. THAT is the FUN in a tactical game.
If one does not have the mental capabilities to see that, then a tactical game is not suited for that person.
I suggest simpler games for those people. Like the usual respawn shooter or Doom or some such.

Edited by Paigan, 05 July 2017 - 08:55 AM.

[LowSubmarino]

razenWing, on 05 July 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

200 posts ago, I made about my forray into the realm of Gods and Monsters. I don't think adapted poorly, in fact my average match score has gone up season by season despite climbing that ladder.

But as I was staring at my arsenal of 100+ mechanical yesterday, I realized... Wow I am not enjoying this... Like at all.

If you want to do good consistently, brawl is basically dead in high tier game. Nobody got to that stage without the most effective method, which from the beginn8ng of time, has always been to shoot before you get shot back. Even if it's boring as hell, at the end of the day, you just have to land one more shot than the other side, right? That's why top teams like EMP never pushes, but rely on their impressive shooting skills to make a mockery of poptarting.

Note, I'm not bashing those guys. They play the hand they're dealt, and they can make pocket Queens work better than every other suckers.

My point... so going to Solo que, you stick to that range wack a mole game and there's basically like a few meta builds that will f you the least even if you have trash teammates. Needless to say, as much as I like EBJs... having my life revolve around one mech is just no fun with other hundred mech sitting in the bench. In lower ques, before people get the necessity of meta, people are more willing to try wacky builds that often time, means cqc (w a lot more lrms, downside)

High tier games, none of that noise... Just... Boring.

I mean, I could always drop in groups. But let's set aside the tonnage limitation and you don't want to always hog the tonnage and/or people need to be online, you go in there with finally... You diverse builds, your fun builds, and because you work in a team , they work out great!!

Till you run into those EMPs tier comp teams. And you realize, crap, outside of running the exact same meta yawn builds and lose a slower more competitive death, you are just going to get trashed otherwise.

So either you play their game, make your game no fun, but at least have a chance every single game...
Or
You play your game, your team is good enough to win against everyone except you will be trashed every 2 to 3 games because of meta try hard.

All this culminate to my exhaustion toward the gameplay. Again, this is not to blame the super teams. Plenty of wannabe teams do the same thing and get trashed. They just play their pocket Queens better than everyone else. That's not their fault that the game is the way it is. But I do blame PGI for not introducing modes or maps to break up deathball or range... And/or not limiting twitch reflex skills over strategic decision making.

But even that's getting old. No point blaming PGI when they won't do a thing about it. Everyone is just OK with being satisfactory because there's always s9meone they can beat up on. Emp laughs every time there's less sjr 9n the other side... Vice versa so on and so forth... No one really cares because of the status quo. New mech is just an excuse to see how well it can adapt to the meta instead of the other way around. Yawn

Some ppl enjoy shooting and killing stuff from safe distance without getting hit yourself.

Maybe emp doesnt do that solely to win but because they like to play that way.

I actually enjoy nothing more than to shoot from safe distances. Trading at close range is boring as hell. Over in mere moments. You alawys need to be super close and expose yourself.

Its just that the average pug player is so used to nobrain nascar each game and pathetic play (even or specialyl in Tier 1) that they instamelt when theres some real competition. Yeah...ppl will have pretty nasty aim sometimes and use long range weapons on you.

Whats there not to like. Guass and ppc ftw. Poptarting rocks. Is tons of fun.

And those emp guys and girls are very killable. Their blood tastes sweet.

[Tralik]

I think most of this can be attributed to a wholly defunct match-maker and tier system. Making Tier 1 is not super difficult and it certainly does not equally represent the various skill levels present at that tier. Nor does it take into account groups with widely varying tier levels. Thus you end up with matches of try-hard's versus weekend warriors that do nothing but punish the casual players. It is bad for business.

Truth be told, there needs to be at least 10 tiers, separating the good casual players from the try-hards. I was hoping that the competition mode would draw many of the try-hard's, but to date, this does not appear to be happening.

[JediPanther]

I purposely tank my stats. I refuse to run meta builds. I play the mechs I want using whatever build I want. I've not even gotten to half way up that little exp-progress bar to t4. I run std engine lights, ac 20 raven, all flamer only ember. Play for fun or play some thing else is my mantra for this game. It is suppose to be fun so the moment it isn't why keep doing it?

I've been in semi casual cw units and one that wanted to be hard core meta-win-at-all-cost unit. i left the hard core one for the casual and played 2 years with that unit til pgi kept constantly changing cw the unit members all got tired of it over time and left. I still see some of my former unit mates in other units and a few have been 'offline' in my friends list for years.

Don't be one of the meta and stat chasers and you'll find the game a lot more fun. Run the derp-ist builds you can think of for the fun of it like this one: CPLT-A1 Superderp

[Gwahlur]

JediPanther, on 05 July 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

I purposely tank my stats. I refuse to run meta builds. I play the mechs I want using whatever build I want.

That doesnt mean you have to tank your stats though?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Brawling is a guaranteed way to cause your combat vehicle to receive damage. Getting into Brawling range means you are within effective renage of all the enemy's weapons and also are close enough to where they practically cannot miss you.

Brawling is not a smart tactic. It can be really fun, but if you are trying to win and not die, then why push into close range where you are at risk of receiving the most damage, and risk fighting multiple enemies at a time?


I wish people would stop complaining about how "Brawling is Dead" because Brawling is just an exercise in meaningless fun. It's not an exercise in Trying to Win. You know what else is Dead? Sending fleets of propeller-driven warplanes into combat, but WWII flight sims are still fun. You know what else is Dead? Sending hoards of men marching in file out into an open field, a la Civil War and Napoleonic wars. Still, people coming about how "LRMs are OP" because you cannot freely March out into the open without being attacked by long-range weapons.

Look, some things are more Fun than Effective. And some things are just plain ineffective. Don't blame PGI for you not being able to thrive while using poor tactics.

[JediPanther]

Oh I use to pay very much attention to my stats then I got bored because I was using only one mech and build all the time where doing under 400 damage with 2-3 kills only was a sub par match for me. Now I just think of them as randomly made up numbers that don't mean any thing like the extra nines of a price of gallon of gas. $3.2999.

I'm pretty sure I could go up to t2 or t1 in a few weeks if I truly wanted to by playing a lot more, running my old nearly-always-win builds that I've made. I just rather use my free time now to do other things besides just game. The job I do is extremely boring,dull and repetitive but since it pays slightly more than other jobs in the area with a lot less stress I want to branch out my free time and have things besides pointless stats in a video game to show off when people ask what I do for hobbies and such.

I've picked up commissions when I tell people I make cartoons and 3d models. Been gaming since Dad's old C64 with all the atari,midway, ocean games when I was seven. Still love the ocean loader music and skate or die intro music.

[El Bandito]

Nobody is forcing you to play a single mech/build--it is your own choice. Live with it. I personally love my meta Clan mechs, and I am having fun with them. Can't wait until MCII drops in just over 10 days.

T1 is already diluted with tons of less than good players who simply benefited from tier system's upwards bias. It is harder than other tiers but not by that much.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 July 2017 - 09:37 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Brawling still works in solo but you need to be fast 130kph or so, You need to look for the openings and find the players not in the murder ball. Only problem i run into is when you get a nice brawl going the stupid lrms start dropping.

In group Q you can get this to work depending a lot on the map. Problem again you run into is you need almost a full team. When this happens your limited to medium mechs. You can still load up with 8-12 novas and most anyone but the top teams can do anything about it.


Lastly look into getting 3 other buddies and do some scouting. Good medium brawls here.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 05 July 2017 - 09:49 AM.

[Jman5]

Paigan, on 05 July 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

I consistently see that many, many people have a tbh totally wrong, naive, dumb idea of what a tactical shooter is.
I come more from tactical games (Starcraft and the like).
As soon as tactics get involved, all those "romantic" notions of heroic brawling die out.
Efficiency is what counts.

...

Look at Starcraft:
The most efficient tactic is something like outranging the enemy with a ball of siege tanks.
Or a deathball of Marines&Medics.

This is a bit of an aside, but I always find it fascinating how certain concepts are absolute staples of one genre, but in another are practically ignored. Even when it's highly applicable. I too come from an RTS background and it's always puzzled me how certain basics from the RTS world don't really get emphasized in MWO.

Take timing for example. So much about winning in an RTS revolve around having good timing and understanding what something means if you see it at specific times.

You scout an overlord at a certain position at a certain time in the game and you will know where the opponent's base is without seeing it. Knowing whether he's close spawn or far spawn can mean certain strategies are more or less viable. You see the opponent has certain types of buildings or number of workers at a specific time and you know what strategy he is employing. You plan and practice your build order to be as crisp as possible so that your army is stronger than his at a specific point in the game and then you attack. These are not just some ultra high level league stuff, but things that regular players care about.

Then you go over to MWO and see the utter disregard people have for crisp timing. You've got people slowly ambling around at the start instead of beelining key positions. Few people seem to care about learning spawn positions and taking advantage of a timing window to attack weak/isolated ones in the early game.

In the Siege map, Emerald Taiga, the attackers can pop the gates open and get a foothold into the base before Heavies and Assaults can set up a firing line. But what do you see people do instead? Screwing around, or sitting there doing nothing. Almost every team out there completely blows a massive opportunity to push through the gate without getting smashed by an entrenched firing line.

This should be something that is fundamental to MWO players like it is Starcraft players, but for whatever reason it's a concept that is highly undeveloped except at the very high end of play.

Edited by Jman5, 05 July 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[Solarise]

everyone win with brawls. At tier 1 everyone have amazing shooting skills n twisting skills.

[razenWing]

I see a lot of comments about the tier thing, which made me realize that like my last two threads, most of you guys read the title... maybe peak 1 or 2 lines from my paragraph, and generally have no idea what you are talking about except just making noise that's pleasant to you.

I am not saying like at ALL how Tier 1 is much harder to play. I am, however, saying Tier 1 (and by inclusion, tier 2 and 3) players are more homogeneous in centering around meta tactics. Am I complaining about those players? No. I am saying that's the hand they are dealt with. Everyone knows how to efficiently survive and do damage by the amount of games required to climb the ladder.

Because of that, there are far more creativity in the lower tiers than higher tiers. That's a fact. So stop it with the meta talk, you are not even on topic. (just from page 2... kefka, tralik, bandito etc... Jesus, I hate to say it, cause I've come to know some of you... but damn... learn to f-ing read)

Paigan, on 05 July 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

I consistently see that many, many people have a tbh totally wrong, naive, dumb idea of what a tactical shooter is.
I come more from tactical games (Starcraft and the like).
As soon as tactics get involved, all those "romantic" notions of heroic brawling die out.
Efficiency is what counts.

The best tactic is where you obliberate your enemies without ever getting hit.

Meaning any combination of
- intel
- range
- cover
- terrain (e.g. using choke points. If you don't know what a choke point is - which applies to like 90% of MWO players, tbh - google it)
- firing lines
- suppressive fire
- stealth
- if need be deathballing, but that's already borderline "too much action", because you are not fully in control.

- oh and, of COURSE: boating weapons/units if possible. Because it is EFFICIENT.

Look at Starcraft:
The most efficient tactic is something like outranging the enemy with a ball of siege tanks.
Or a deathball of Marines&Medics.

I never understand why people can even think about complaing about deathballs or boating or using range. That which is tactically elementary is in some ridiculous way not accepted by those people. And that despite playing a TACTICAL game.

Sorry to say that, but anyone who thinks brawling or mixed builds or NOT using cover/range are good or desireable or fun things is just a dumb suicider. A gambler who storms forward mindlessly and MIGHT come out as the victor or might as well just get picked off by a properly established enemy firing line before doing even one shot.

THAT, turning all the variables of combat in one's favor so that ideally one wins without ever getting hit, is tactical play. THAT is the FUN in a tactical game.
If one does not have the mental capabilities to see that, then a tactical game is not suited for that person.
I suggest simpler games for those people. Like the usual respawn shooter or Doom or some such.

You THINK you are making a point... when in fact, you are making MY point. Smart map design and modes can alter strategy greatly. Can you poptart in a city? Everything you described that go into how the current "meta strategy" is exactly the failing of PGI. Are those close/mid range oriented players are "supposed" to be able to change the combat landscape even though the environment doesn't suit them?

You want to talk about Starcraft, let's talk about Starcraft. Do you execute the same strategy if the map size is different? Do you execute the same strategy if the attack path is different? Do you ling rush on an island map?

So obviously, there's not "one style fit all approach" to efficiency. That's one-style-fit-all efficiency can be broken, like the above example, by fighting in different environments that require different tactics.

I am surprised such a good RTS player like yourself (as you claimed) don't know that. Unless I mean, you just ling rush your way to Diamond, think you are hot stuff, and can't go any higher because everyone in the upper league knows how to counter your cheesy strat.

But hey, what do I know, you are the pro, right? You obviously know everything about efficiency.

[DAYLEET]

As far as quickplay goes; I dont see any consistent tiering. I dont see prevalence in meta builds and i see brawling all the time but maybe not on the scale op would like. Dumb plans tend to be the funnest. Nomather how dumb a decision your team make, theres a 50% chance the other team made a dumber move. bad positioning can turn great quickly and vice versa. Quickplay is a mix bad bag(lol), if theres one thing you can count on quick play is that in the end, nothing really matters.

Put your brain on off if thats what you need but dont blame none existent tiering, dont blame your teammates when you have a good one but they dont and dont blame comp team for the mech YOU play. If thats not good for you theres group play and FW.

Edited by DAYLEET, 05 July 2017 - 11:34 AM.

[xe N on]

Brawling is fun. However, brawling weapons mostly only provide one thing: damage at short range.

Ranged weapons, on the other hand, can be (mostly) used at range and in close combat.

A large laser will be not as good as an SRM6 rack at the range of 0 to 270 m, but on the other hand, a SRM6 rack will do nothing at the optimal range of the large laser.

That makes short range brawling weapons highly situation. Ranged weapons are generally more flexible.

In BattleTech TT, some long range weapons got a minium range to balance out long range weapons ability to perform well in short range combat, for example: AC/5, Gauss. In MWO this minimum range was removed except for LRMs and PPCs.

In fact, i don't like that long range weapons can be so easily used in short range combat. There should be more drawbacks to use long range weapons in close combat.

Edited by xe N on, 05 July 2017 - 11:53 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

xe N on, on 05 July 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Brawling is fun. However, brawling weapons mostly only provide one thing: damage at short range.

Ranged weapons, on the other hand, can be (mostly) used at range and in close combat.

A large laser will be not as good as an SRM6 rack at the range of 0 to 270 m, but on the other hand, a SRM6 rack will do nothing at the optimal range of the large laser.

That makes short range brawling weapons highly situation. Ranged weapons are generally more flexible.

In BattleTech TT, some long range weapons got a minium range to balance out long range weapons ability to perform well in short range combat, for example: AC/5, Gauss. In MWO this minimum range was removed except for LRMs and PPCs.

In fact, i don't like that long range weapons can be so easily used in short range combat. There should be more drawbacks to use long range weapons in close combat.

You see a lot more people willing to take those range weapons into brawls due to the skill tree. Every high alpha sniper is running two coolshots. The risk of brawls isn't as much as it used to be.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Natred, on 05 July 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

Please dont tell me your one of the players who piggy backs of others using lrms and your sad it does not work against seasoned opponents

They work quite effectively in Solo Queue which is closer the Battletech I want to be playing not the gross caricature of PGI failure amplified into something that made me violently ill watching a match and a half of the MWOWC last December. That is just everything wrong that PGI has ever implemented either through ignorance or incompetence all rolled into one giant ball of suck by people who like it.

[Taffer]

Mar X maN, on 05 July 2017 - 07:14 AM, said:

I have turned off all chat. Filtered out all my non c-bill bonus mechs. Got rid of almost all the weapons I don't enjoy.
Still keep moving up the tier system. Just playing how I want (that's the right I paid for) and do what I can with
my current "random" mech to add value to my team.

I am having fun again.

hehe you just made me wish there was a randomize mech button. That would be so fun!

[OrmsbyGore]

Natred, on 05 July 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

Please dont tell me your one of the players who piggy backs of others using lrms and your sad it does not work against seasoned opponents

He said he likes brawling

[Tiewolf]

Mmh I think razenWing got a valid point here. The more you rise in the tier system the more freedom you lose in your build/play style options or your chances of your team to win are slim. Even if you are matched with lower tiers due to server population, matchmaker forces you to preform cause on the other team is very likely an adequate player like you that runs a meta build. If you are in a fun build and together with lower tier players, who can't carry you the stomp is very likely and your matched player on the other team will have a brilliant game with 1,5k damage. That is what is happening. So the higher you rise the less freedom you get and the more you get forced to embrace the meta. I don't enjoy it too, cause I like to have fun and don't like to be forced into a need for achievement.

Edited by Tiewolf, 05 July 2017 - 12:15 PM.