207 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

naterist, on 14 July 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

They should just ask xavier to let them put nbt in the factionplay tab, nuke everything else.

No more Xavier as community roundtable leader. That last roundtable was dreadful and thats because Xavier talked more. Hes not dropping any truth bombs and the roundtable from last year was just about as effective as well.

[QueenBlade]

wrong Xavier...

X A V I E R of NBT, not Xavier of MercStar

[naterist]

QueenBlade, on 14 July 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

wrong Xavier...

X A V I E R of NBT, not Xavier of MercStar

Correct.

[Crockdaddy]

X Grunt, on 14 July 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

I played MWO since Beta. I quit playing a month after it went live and have come back to check in once in awhile to see if the power that be have pulled their heads out of their butts and started to listening to the community. I see nothing has changed and they still live in their fantasy world. Nothing we discussed or wanted was incorporated in the Game play. Releasing the clan TO&E was dumb. Faction warfare has never been worth playing. It is like they could careless. As I have said before this is nothing more than World of Tanks with legs. Nothing more than Atar1 2600 Tanks with better graphics. Which might keep the adhd kids entertained, but the adults would like something with a little more flavor.

How to fix FW. Not sure if this version is fixable. The bar is ok for what they have now in FW. I know we are not supposed to blasphemy by bringing up competitions names in here but oh flipping well. I have played this game since the first day it came out in table top form and every version of the video game since. I have played in dozens of leagues in the various computer games and only 1 ever kept me coming back as much as possible. It was a league called NetBattleTech.com. They got it right from day one. As far as I know they do not exist anymore because they were big in to MW4 etc. But they understood faction play. We could learn a lot from how they set up their FW play.
1.- They had people in charge of houses, house units, merc. units, pirates etc.
2.- They had various forms of attacks you could use against an opponent. From Planetary Assaults(taking a planet), raids of various types, to small recons. This incorporated tonnage based drops from 70 tons to 1000 tons depending on the mission.
3.- They had jump ships they carried x amount of mechs to use how the commander saw fit. This determined what kind of mission you were going to undertake. PA, raid , or recon. Most mission were raids.
4.- Once the mission was over both sides submitted their mech losses and if they won or lost. The opposite side had to check and agree such mechs were used and the outcome was correct. Then submitted to a GM. They would deduct the mechs lost, salvaged, or stolen and any planet losses.
5.- House Mercs were used if house troops could make it to a drop or any merc if neither of the first two were available. Mercs were paid and agreed upon amount.
6.- All units had a monthly maintenance amount that had to be played. So mercs/ pirates could not sit on their butts etc.
7.- All canon factions were available to play.
8.- Factions had mech factories that they could utilize and sell mechs from. There was also a black market where any unit could pick up mechs for the set price plus BM mark up.
9.- Equal tonnage with any advantages in tonnage doing to IS. Clans bid to fight and do more with less.

I know, 2 different games. But these were the things that made MW4 fun to play. It was like the being in the books. You had Mech vs Mech combat and also strategic warfare. This game has no flavor. FW appears damn near dead to me. I sat for 9 minutes today waiting to join up. I watched the wheel spin around and around and never made it to a battle before I got frustrated and canceled. Something has to be done. I mean doing nothing has gotten them this far. Why not try something different and maybe see people returning to play. Use what other leagues/games have done that were successful. There are numerous other Battletech games coming out soon that will strip away players. Time to act before this game fades away like many others have. I see the same complaints and issues that people brought up in Warhammer online and look how fast that game died. All because the devs knew what the community wanted more than the community did in that game.

Too often the developers do not want to change their baby they have created. The key to a successful business is being able to take what you have created and change it to fit what is relevant and wanted for/by the community. Not what you want to be. I think that the best bet would be to start from scratch. Set the maps so IS and can attack IS and Clan can attack Clan, to keep us occupied. Then have a real open discussion with the community about making real changes. Otherwise this game will fade away. So I know I have said a lot and helped little. But coming back to see if anything had changed and seeing the same Emperors new cloths mentality still going strong is disappointing. But I will uninstall again, occasionally step into the forums and hope I will see this game hit its potential. But it will not until the devs start going away and someone who loves this game takes over. But I bet, it will be sold off to someone else like Standing Stone games or whomever, to take charge of, but not change anything. Lets hope I am wrong.

For what it is worth NBT is about to make a comeback again NS participated a few years ago in NBT, but it was an unbalanced **** show at the time and the automation desperately needed updating (they have been working on it).

[50 50]

So... the patch notes have some details on the changes to the map and different win conditions.
It looks like the Clan territories outside of the Inner Sphere are now accessible which is really interesting.
It also looks like the original territory view is back and it might be using a slightly different process in the voting?
Will be interesting to see.
Thoughts?

[Deathlike]

Commander A9, on 14 July 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

First thing for fixing Faction Warfare?

Equal tonnage, 250-250, no exceptions, no questions asked, no BS.

Second thing? You want to discourage 'pugging?' Make it a requirement to use Group Cue with a minimum of 2 people.

There it is.

First, rebalance the game properly before we even get to this step (start with Clan XL, again, LFE doesn't actually change this).

Translation: It won't happen.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 July 2017 - 11:15 PM.

[50 50]

Easiest thing for balance would be to make the various IS and Clan weapons have the same heat, range and damage.
Then it's just down to tonnage, which we can balance at a drop deck level in Faction Play, and critical spaces which is balanced by the health of the items.
After that, it's all down to preferences in the skill tree.

[Kaptain]

I've only played it a few times and didn't like it. That said you are welcome to disregard my perspective if you so choose. Besides my limited play experience I have watched a ton of faction play videos and read a ton of forum posts. Here is my take on why I personally avoid the mode.

The various states of broken FP has gone through really turned me off.
Gen rushing, gen snipping, Long tom instant death, scout long tom countering, 12KCs with 2xGRs, 12 atlas rushing and so on. Why put up with this when QP is generating the closest games I have seen in 5? years?

Limited drop deck viability and accepted load-outs. There is far more variety in QP and people are far less likely to get on your case for not running the best meta possible.

Besides the various states of broken the entire mode feels completely pointless. Attacking and defending planets just to earn loyalty points. Loyalty points that pay out more of the same. I am already earning C-bills faster than I can spend them. I have more mechs and mech bays than I need. Events (esp QP events) pay out decent MC, premium time and items. Where is the rewards for holding planets and increasing rank. Discounts on Items, mechs, weapons and equipment. Increase SPs for faction specific mechs at various levels of experience. Something besides C-Bills and XP.

And finally the 4 mech re-spawn game mode completely breaks immersion for me. In the BT universe it is well understood that pilots take damage. Yet my mech can be completely destroyed and I find myself in tip top shape back on the drop ship ready to pilot my next, seemingly completely disposable, mech.

The lack of a salvage and economy system is a huge miss. One of the best parts of Mech Warrior Games of the past was salvage.

Game modes in both FP and QP are pathetic.
-Generator destruct results in a cease fire? Why doesn't it result in orbital guns going offline temporarily giving the attackers more drop ships, more mechs and more tonnage. If the defenders loose a generator but kill the attacking force it comes back online sooner. If the attackers destroy both the generators and the defending force the orbital guns fall into enemy hands. Somethign like that. But not instead its Generator destroyed everyone CEASE FIRE! It could feel like it has meaning, but it doesn't.
-No hold out game modes. That game mode where you are out number and outgunned but you have a better position, some turrets, maybe some refit bays and you have to hold out.
-No ability to buy defenses/ build defenses.
-Incursion, the base-defense-mode where a BlackJack can single handed destroy the entire base and all of its defenses? Da ***? Give it some LRM turrets and gates that open and close at-least.
-Escort the mode where the 100 ton VIP mech doesn't get any weapons and you can't control what rout it takes to the extraction point. Even with Hardened armor and Reinforced structure it should get some weapons.
-Conquest (Russ once said MWO will never be about go here, cap this) Instead of capturing meaningless points why aren't lights and mediums jump jetting past walls and defenses to secure turret controls, sensor towers, gate controls and generators MechCommander style?

Edited by Kaptain, 16 July 2017 - 04:28 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Kaptain, on 16 July 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

I've only played it a few times and didn't like it. That said you are welcome to disregard my perspective if you so choose. Besides my limited play experience I have watched a ton of faction play videos and read a ton of forum posts. Here is my take on why I personally avoid the mode.

The various states of broken FP has gone through really turned me off.
Gen rushing, gen snipping, Long tom instant death, scout long tom countering, 12KCs with 2xGRs, 12 atlas rushing and so on. Why put up with this when QP is generating the closest games I have seen in 5? years?

Limited drop deck viability and accepted load-outs. There is far more variety in QP and people are far less likely to get on your case for not running the best meta possible.

Besides the various states of broken the entire mode feels completely pointless. Attacking and defending planets just to earn loyalty points. Loyalty points that pay out more of the same. I am already earning C-bills faster than I can spend them. I have more mechs and mech bays than I need. Events (esp QP events) pay out decent MC, premium time and items. Where is the rewards for holding planets and increasing rank. Discounts on Items, mechs, weapons and equipment. Increase SPs for faction specific mechs at various levels of experience. Something besides C-Bills and XP.

And finally the 4 mech re-spawn game mode completely breaks immersion for me. In the BT universe it is well understood that pilots take damage. Yet my mech can be completely destroyed and I find myself in tip top shape back on the drop ship ready to pilot my next, seemingly completely disposable, mech.

The lack of a salvage and economy system is a huge miss. One of the best parts of Mech Warrior Games of the past was salvage.

Game modes in both FP and QP are pathetic.
-Generator destruct results in a cease fire? Why doesn't it result in orbital guns going offline temporarily giving the attackers more drop ships, more mechs and more tonnage. If the defenders loose a generator but kill the attacking force it comes back online sooner. If the attackers destroy both the generators and the defending force the orbital guns fall into enemy hands. Somethign like that. But not instead its Generator destroyed everyone CEASE FIRE! It could feel like it has meaning, but it doesn't.
-No hold out game modes. That game mode where you are out number and outgunned but you have a better position, some turrets, maybe some refit bays and you have to hold out.
-No ability to buy defenses/ build defenses.
-Incursion, the base-defense-mode where a BlackJack can single handed destroy the entire base and all of its defenses? Da ***? Give it some LRM turrets and gates that open and close at-least.
-Escort the mode where the 100 ton VIP mech doesn't get any weapons and you can't control what rout it takes to the extraction point. Even with Hardened armor and Reinforced structure it should get some weapons.
-Conquest (Russ once said MWO will never be about go here, cap this) Instead of capturing meaningless points why aren't lights and mediums jump jetting past walls and defenses to secure turret controls, sensor towers, gate controls and generators MechCommander style?

I question the choice to go with the 4 mech dropdeck as the core of the gamemode a lot. Attaching dropdecks to quickplay maps is a shotgun marriage as well.

What is this even? You get your own lance of mechs? I don't even know when the whole idea of dropdecks originally started. 2012? 2013? I guess dropdecks was meant to sell more mechpacks and more mechpack dupes or something. A friend of mine, fbj, spent tons of money on this game but suddenly quit after phase 3. He was one of the players that loved having dupes just for CW. He even had 7 Top Dogs because he could. I know of another player that bought 3 Cataphract 0XPs when it was premium store content just for CW because they wanted ECM like Clans have Hellbringers. (even though the 0XP is kinda bad)

Dropdecks open up all kinds of edgecase problems like waves of 12 100 tonners or 12 lights, something that is reminiscent of closed/open beta except worse. Spawn killing would never have been a thing without dropdecks.

It could be polished more but as we have seen, PGI patches CW and then it goes without alteration for months at a time.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 16 July 2017 - 05:52 PM.

[Sedmeister]

So I want to try and summarise this thread which is a big deal as people have come up with some great ideas at a very micro/detailed level whilst others have given broad brush strokes and then of course everything in between.

There have been some really good responses. Even those venting their frustrations (one persons salt is another persons opportunity to glean some insights) and those stating why they don't play the mode likewise really help inform the conversation.

So it would appear to me as I try to read over the posts that (in no particular order) what would improve FW includes but is not limited to:

1) Space nerd politics (what happens in the context of a FW match should effect the broader strategic outcome/map) is a big deal. "Taking a planet" should actually have a practical effect on game play (see below).
2) Changes on the map should have practical implications (availability of mechs, loadouts, determine attack lanes etc).
3) Faction alignment (ie: the house/clan I choose) should mean something practically (mech/weap availability).
4) Reading between the lines, players should have the option to fight in either the Succession Wars era or the Clan Invasions era?
5) Real life players should be more involved in the dynamics/politics of FW (unit leaders voting on aspects of the game mode, unit/community leaders working in concert with PGI staff to shape/effect the unfolding of the space nerd politics drama etc).

How's the list looking?

Edited by Sedmeister, 17 July 2017 - 04:25 AM.

[50 50]

Pretty good on the list.

It seems that there are a couple of aspects that we have to acknowledge as the core of the way Faction Play is setup.
It's got the drop decks.
It's got the stages.
We have this tug of war thing to try and simulate the campaign.

The last couple of days I started thinking more along the lines of what makes a campaign and after reading a few posts about missions and so on thought that this is an aspect that is also missing.
The tug of war does not let us feel as though we are embarking on a campaign to complete objectives and get as far as we can.
There is talk about end game content but there is no lead up to it on an individual/group level.

What would you guys think about using scouting and the gathered intel points as a way to unlock missions?
Missions being the other modes with their objectives.
We complete the missions to earn victory points which add to our faction total and at the end of the week that total is what determines any map changes.
But we run these missions at a group level so as players we have the choice to take on certain modes.
Try and get some sort of continuation from one mission to the next to make it our campaign and our effort in the war.
This might mean that a 12 player group could go straight into Seige mode, but a 4 player group may have to scout multipel times to unlock that mode, or they do smaller missions which cost less intel points.

[SteamCharts Kerensky]

Crockdaddy, on 13 July 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

I've tried a few times to get them back ... but the state of MWO is what it is.

I think we'd all consider returning when the game is worth playing.

So basically, never.

[SteamCharts Kerensky]

P.S. You can't fix CW/FW/whatever they're calling it this week, because in order to do that you'd need key revisions to basically every aspect of the game mode, and they'd have to be done by someone competent.

Given that PGI doesn't have any competent game designers (see: Faction Warfare, exhibit A) and can't be bothered to listen to anyone intelligent on the subject (i.e. me), I think you guys should probably go spend your time doing something more productive. If you're looking for suggestions on what you could do that would be more fun and productive, here are some ideas:

- Complaining about people you don't like on Twitter
- Home & Garden TV
- Reading the editorial page of your local newspaper
- Watching paint dry
- Looking for other failed Free2Play multiplayer games whose developers may be more competent or receptive to new ideas


Ganbare!

[The Mysterious Fox]

the current balance for FP is pretty miserable, im finding games ending by the clock far more than ever before and its just so slow and boring. For domination and conquest, noone knows the state of the game because you cant see the kills. Its just poke, get the advantage and wait for the clock.

[Kael Posavatz]

how about this for an idea.

get rid of groups in FW.

The actual group vs group battles are vanishingly rare. When a group v pug happens, it's a one-sided stomp which results in pugs complaining about groups, and groups complaining about the lack of good fights.

pug v pug, as it happens, seems to result in hard-fought close-run matches that both sides find enjoyable.

[Carl Vickers]

Kael Posavatz, on 22 July 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

how about this for an idea.

get rid of groups in FW.

The actual group vs group battles are vanishingly rare. When a group v pug happens, it's a one-sided stomp which results in pugs complaining about groups, and groups complaining about the lack of good fights.

pug v pug, as it happens, seems to result in hard-fought close-run matches that both sides find enjoyable.

Good players will still dominate whether playing with a group of friends or solo and then the bads will still complain and call hacuzations against the good, forum gets posts along the lines of ban the good players cause they killed me good, just like whats happening now.

[Kael Posavatz]

Carl Vickers, on 22 July 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

Good players will still dominate whether playing with a group of friends or solo and then the bads will still complain and call hacuzations against the good, forum gets posts along the lines of ban the good players cause they killed me good, just like whats happening now.

It isn't the hacuzations that killed the game-mode, at least not for me. It was the fact that one-sided stomps were not any fun, whether I was the stomper or the stompee.

[sycocys]

1. Get rid of "qp" as it is now.
Eliminate the faction specific bucket as everyone is mercs.
Lower baseline rewards, build it back up for meeting your contracted factions requirements/limitations.
If people want to run Clan/IS drop decks they can they just get rewarded less.

2. Solos now drop in 1 mech - 1 drop matches in FW. basically same as now, just in FW but no scouting/4v4 option or invasion/counter/multi-drop specific modes or maps.

3. Groups of 4 drop in 1 mech per drop - 3 round matches in FW. (4v4) - no multidrop modes

4. Groups of 8 drop in 5 round matches. 1, lance v lance (2 x 4v4 matches on separate maps), 2 x 1 mech drops, 2 invasion/counterattack drops with 2 mechs.

5. Groups of 12 drop in 7 round matches. 3 lance v lance (3 x 4v4 on separate maps) matches, 2 x 1 mech drops, 2 invasion/counter attack drops with 4 mechs.

------------------------------------------------------
4 total buckets for the whole game outside of the comp mode.
- You have FW - solo, 4v4, 8v8, 12v12 and that's it.
-- also way less work for the match maker, match up teams and they play multiple matches back to back.
---- multiple matches (a campaign) also makes scouting for bonuses actually mean something in the context of a matchup rather than random players affecting the contests of group play.
-------- multiple matches will inevitably lead to a lot better player retention for group mode as it will build in a story line/drama right into the competition between 2 teams. (also far more interesting for the twitch audience than totally random matches every 7-10 minutes)
- lastly there is a progression from solo (easiest type play) to 12v12 (the most competitive play) that make sense and also offers a much wider variety of play with the limited modes and maps the game has.
-----------
Run with your friends/whoever happens to be online or run solo, it doesn't matter one bit even if they are in an opposing faction.
- still a place for everyone from solo to small groups up to full groups without lopsiding anything.
-----------
Tally points based on each player's w/l for their faction/unit match by match and multiply the thresholds by 12 to account for individual scoring for planet control.
--- all the planetary contention "selection" remains in the background. There really doesn't need to be any player choice on this, it doesn't add any value to the game to have players choosing.
----- this means EVERYONE goes into the same overall game bucket with the 4 group sizes to split them apart. All the other nonsense is just tallied up and taken care of behind the scenes, whether totally automated or planet selections by PGI once or twice a day/week/month/whatever to carry along whatever storyline they want to promote between Tuk style events.

*Biggest hurdle would probably be finding a way to allow teams to pick up a player if someone dropped out in-between matches or implementing an ai to take control until they returned.

Edited by sycocys, 23 July 2017 - 08:43 AM.

[Deathlike]

All I will say is killing Quick Play will mostly kill the game, due to how unpopular FP/CW is as a mode.

[sycocys]

Deathlike, on 23 July 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

All I will say is killing Quick Play will mostly kill the game, due to how unpopular FP/CW is as a mode.

That's why you just fold the solo quick play directly into FW basically as-is, just make it so all the game participation counts towards CW.

There's just no purpose in having QP be a separate pool from CW in this game, there should only be one mode. The problems with past CW design is that it was opening up 40+ buckets of games (easy to see how much better the mode worked in the Tuk events when groups couldn't just wait for pugs to show up) and the forced tech limitations on mercenaries.

Get rid of those two things by allowing players to run whatever mechs they want, then rewarding them for matching their chosen contract, and putting EVERYONE in 4 group size pools gets rid of the modes biggest problems - and has the entire game population engaged in the faction control.

Have campaign mode (multi-matches) and you easily create a feeling of progressing and tension for each matchup that progresses in difficulty and variation the larger groups you run (and more matches you unlock to play in a row).

You can pretty well eliminate the entire PSR/MM part of the system because people will either be totally random (solo drops) or dropping into matches that will pretty naturally balance themselves out (all the group drops).

Lastly - you can actually balance the techs out because the entire game is wide open to your mech selection choices.