131 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

I dont mean, pushing and dying... But soaking while your team pounds? some times i swear i spend 3 mins spreading,, while the second line does all the damage.. and you ya end up with 100-200 damage.. and barely any credits.. Seams like if you are soaking while someone else is doing damage you should get some sorta XP/C-bills

[Alan Davion]

It is rewarded. It's just the rewards are for the other team for lambasting you with all that damage.

[Humpday]

Simple, its situational. Its impossible(edit: nothing is impossible) without a human referee, to distinguish between "tanking" vs running into enemy fire like a r_e-t_a-r_d.

Why would you ask that?

Edited by Humpday, 02 July 2017 - 09:01 PM.

[Kumakichi]

You'll get more rewards from ducking and using cover me thinks.

[Pjwned]

Humpday, on 02 July 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

Simple, its situational. Its impossible(edit: nothing is impossible) without a human referee, to distinguish between "tanking" vs running into enemy fire like a r_e-t_a-r_d.

Why would you ask that?

Not really, you could base it off of damage you take, damage that allies deal in the process, proximity to allies, weight class...

It wouldn't be all that hard to figure out something reasonable based on various parameters.

[Kiiyor]

I've thought about this before.

I think the issue would be representing different kinds of tanking in scores.

On the one hand, you have the venerable Atlas, stomping through hordes of enemies, twisting (or trying to) to take hits in the most efficient way possible, paving the way for the rest of the team to exploit the holes he opens in enemy lines...

...and on the other hand, you have a twitchy little commando, zipping through the enemy lines, harassing flanks, tying the enemy up and forcing them to trip all over themselves, dodging shots, and laughing as the enemy dumps more of their firepower into the dirt than they ever make stick to his little mech.

The Atlas takes lots of hits, and you can measure the effectiveness of it's contribution by looking at it's total remaining armour.

But how do you measure the impact of the Commando if you can't measure missed shots, either through direct fire or damage tics from lasers?

The scoring system for tanking would reward assault mechs far more than lights and fast mediums, yet they can all tank quite well.

[ScrapIron Prime]

You want to get rewarded for getting shot... O.o

[Pjwned]

Kiiyor, on 02 July 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

I've thought about this before.

I think the issue would be representing different kinds of tanking in scores.

On the one hand, you have the venerable Atlas, stomping through hordes of enemies, twisting (or trying to) to take hits in the most efficient way possible, paving the way for the rest of the team to exploit the holes he opens in enemy lines...

...and on the other hand, you have a twitchy little commando, zipping through the enemy lines, harassing flanks, tying the enemy up and forcing them to trip all over themselves, dodging shots, and laughing as the enemy dumps more of their firepower into the dirt than they ever make stick to his little mech.

The Atlas takes lots of hits, and you can measure the effectiveness of it's contribution by looking at it's total remaining armour.

But how do you measure the impact of the Commando if you can't measure missed shots, either through direct fire or damage tics from lasers?

The scoring system for tanking would reward assault mechs far more than lights and fast mediums, yet they can all tank quite well.

I was actually just thinking about that myself, and I think the solution would be to also have a "distraction" award for that sort of thing, so for example if you take some amount of damage and your allies get a flanking award on the attacker then you would also get a distraction award for your effort.

[Kiiyor]

Pjwned, on 02 July 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

I was actually just thinking about that myself, and I think the solution would be to also have a "distraction" award for that sort of thing, so for example if you take some amount of damage and your allies get a flanking award on the attacker then you would also get a distraction award for your effort.

Nice.

I was also toying with the idea of measuring missed hits against targets you had locked (just with R) but you're not always shooting at the target you've R'ed, if you even press R at all. Maybe the game engine could detect weapons fire within X m of your mech? Hmmm.

ScrapIron Prime, on 02 July 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

You want to get rewarded for getting shot... O.o

Well, someone who loses every scrap of their armour and spreads out hits over internal structure while still remaining combat effective is arguably of far more benefit to a team than some dude in a DireWolf who gets cored with 90% of the armor remaining on every other component of their mech because torso twisting is for pansies.

Also, tanky mechs like an Atlas that bravely lead a charge and soak up firepower from the enemy whilst their more fragile teammates do all the killin' rarely have time to finesse their aim and rack up huge damage numbers - yet their contribution to victory often goes far beyond what is reflected in their end of match screen. It would be nice to reward that.

[Tarogato]

I think it's a mistake to reward people for getting shot. You'll just have idiots who will look at the patch notes and think "hrmm, playing an Atlas and charging in to die actually pays off now!"


What might make more sense is to reward you C-Bills the lower your %health gets. But also have a flat penalty for dying. So for instance you have to tank below, say, 60% to begin making a profit on any given death. But then this rewards delicate lights equally as tanky assaults, so it's not a good solution either. Unless mech tonnage is added as a multiplier.

[UnofficialOperator]

I think the issue is how we regard "tanking" in mwo as opposed to "tanking" in an mmo.

Assaults must still be regarded as a weapon dealing platform foremost. The armor is just there to "supposedly" enable you to survive long enough to dish out the damage. However high mobility of enemy heavy/med/light and ppfld onto CT negates this advantage easily.

If you want "tanking" as per other mmos, then you must move away from lore and provide Assaults with special armor i.e. 50% reduction from laser/missile damage etc. However, how do you gauge that the mech taking damage is simply poor at positioning and drawing fire like an idiot and hence shouldn't be rewarded.

The scoring system is what it is and its what defines the meta.

[JediPanther]

Tanking in this game really isn't a stat they can track and tell apart from other stats. Did you just take one ac 20 fired from an enemy hbk or did you take 20 worth of damage from chain fired 5's at the same time for example.

If my lights could get an "disrupted enemy team" score for when I get two or more enemy mechs after me that would be nice since in mmo terms I've just argo-ed them and kite-ed them away from the mob.

My Catapult lrm boats are not mmo damage dealers although that is what they can do when I have a spotter keeping locks and a brawler ie tank being the focus of the enemy.

What would be in place to keep some one from just going into full leeroy mode with their assault "tanking" the entire enemy team for a few seconds before dead mech?

[mike29tw]

Armor sharing. Everyone is supposed to tank his fair share.

Also cover is a thing. Not getting shot and not dying is always preferable than "tanking". It's in everyone and the team's best interest to not get focused and die in 3 seconds.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Well, it's because the game rewards individual performance much higher than winning.And that no part of performance is related to taking damage. Dealing damage is.

It is part good thing and part bad thing. Some games has this kind of model and others have the other kind of model where winners gets most. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 02 July 2017 - 11:14 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

How do you discern tanking damage, from being idiotically out of position?

[Tier5 Kerensky]

The6thMessenger, on 02 July 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

How do you discern tanking damage, from being idiotically out of position?

If it leads into victory more often, then it's tanking damage. If it leads into defeat more often, then it's being idiotically out of position.

I mean per single battle you can't differate it, but over course of several battles, the effect would show.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 02 July 2017 - 11:44 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

There is a reward for meaningful tanking or distraction already.

Called Winning

---

However there is a option to measure taken damage but you need to make the PSR stuff better.

Adding a damage/efficient rating for both teams. For example team on fired 1000 shots for a total of 10.000 damage and dealt only 3000 damage. Were as team 2 fired 1000 shots for 10000 damage and dealt 6000 damage.
So there must have been a issue why team 2 is 100% better than team 1.
If team 2 are simple the better pilots you would see it in the end screen and can modify the values so that team 1 get a compensation for beeing stomped - if bot teams seem to be equal however team 2 gets a reward for causing that many wasted shots

[The6thMessenger]

Teer Kerensky, on 02 July 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

If it leads into victory more often, then it's tanking damage. If it leads into defeat more often, then it's being idiotically out of position.

I mean per single battle you can't differate it, but over course of several battles, the effect would show.

So reward is basically winning.

[DeeHawk]

Karl Streiger, on 02 July 2017 - 11:50 PM, said:

There is a reward for meaningful tanking or distraction already.

Called Winning

This is exactly the problem, and the issues reflects just as well to light scouts. Winning has a negligible difference to losing, especially if you often do these things. However, you get up to 36.000 if you're the first to target all 12 mechs, but the rewards stops here.

You can spot the entire team, get their murderball to split twice by cap'ing their base (Assault game mode), while all your allies is camping your own base.
Keep spotting the entire enemy team as they move in on my team, and ending up evading 2 mediums and a light who came to save their base. I called targets and guided my team were to go, as I ran back to regroup, which barely lead to a victory.
My Locust was awarded 90.000 CBills for that match, and I played its little metal *** off. Rest if the team was just standing in base cashing CBills for damage.

It's the game, it's not fair, but the satisfaction of winning a game on tactics, like scouting and reporting, pushing and sharing armor etc. is just too good. I play this game mostly to have fun, and I really like winning. For me, Cbill rewards are second to that.

To reflect the importance of teamplay, rewards for winning could be increased, while purely offensive rewards could be slighty decreased, if even touched at all.

Edited by DeeHawk, 03 July 2017 - 01:56 AM.

[jjm1]

ScrapIron Prime, on 02 July 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

You want to get rewarded for getting shot... O.o

It is a valid play. The enemy is occupied by an Atlas so the teams attrition rate is less than the other teams.