72 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Absolutely not, either all omnimechs have unlocked engines or none of them do.

The only thing this sort of change accomplishes is to make the rules an aborted mess while sidestepping the actual issues at hand.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

The only thing they need to do is make ISXL survive a side torso blowout. then IS omnis are fine.

why PGI is so obstinate about making ISXL survive side torso destruction I dont know. they prefer give all IS mechs absurd structure quirks and turn clan mechs into garbage trucks rather than just fix ISXL. It doesnt make any friggin sense.

That has nothing to do with why the Owens or Strider are garbage. The Strider doesn't even HAVE an XL despite being 40 tons.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 07:48 PM, said:

except omnimechs cant swap engines. thats what makes them omnimechs.

it makes more sense to just fix the ISXL. because thats the engine most omnimechs come with anyway.

then the Rules need to change, as what makes a mech an OmniMech isnt ONLY the Engine being Locked,

ive heard people against this saying well the Rules say? well OmniMech Rules say,
well when i say the Rules need to change i get, But we cant be cause their the RULES?
well guess what MWO using its own OmniMech Construction Rules apart form BT,

and these MWO Rules can and should be Changed for Balance,
or should C-Guass & C-ERPPC be better than their IS Counterparts just because the Rules?

[Void Angel]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

omnimechs should have 1-2 omnihardpoints each that let them mount any type of weapon

Andi Nagasia, on 07 July 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

i would support this on OmniMechs as well as what is Proposed in the Topic OP,

Except that this would invalidate most Battlemechs with similar architecture, tonnage, and hardpoints. Why buy two or three Marauders for various roles when the Rakshasa does it all with higher mounts and more flexible hardpoints? Unless the Rakshasa has cripplingly bad hard locked internals, making it a poor substitute.

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

why PGI is so obstinate about making ISXL survive side torso destruction I dont know. they prefer give all IS mechs absurd structure quirks and turn clan mechs into garbage trucks rather than just fix ISXL. It doesnt make any friggin sense.

Huh? Sure it makse sense: they're trying to preserve the canon differences between tech bases while still balancing the game. The method they're using to do this is by taking the whole package of options that goes into making a 'mech, and having superior options in one area balance out the others. For example, make the newly released Clan 'mechs take hard-locked internals and too-large engines (remember the tears about that? And then the larger engines revamped the meta,) in order to compensate for their superior weapons and equipment.

That... actually sorta worked - until they released Clan Battlemechs, and Omnis with lower engine ratings. Then all hell broke loose. But that's what they're trying to do, and since they were able to get it pretty close (still slanted toward Clantech, but close,) it makes a sort of sense to try and do it where they can now, even while they're moving toward a true, direct balance between the tech bases. I think they're probably wrong, but it makes sense. =)

[Khobai]

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then the Rules need to change, as what makes a mech an OmniMech isnt ONLY the Engine being Locked,

no the rules dont need to change. the only thing that needs to change is ISXL surviving a side torso blowout.

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That has nothing to do with why the Owens or Strider are garbage. The Strider doesn't even HAVE an XL despite being 40 tons.

Why is the owens garbage?

4E 2M seems okay for hardpoints. but it can easily be give 1-2 additional omnihardpoints on top of that.

280XL is still fast enough for a 35 tonner. the arctic cheetah at 30 tons only has a 240XL engine. so thats the same speed as the arctic cheetah.

it looks like it doesnt have endo but a lot of the clan omnis that dont have endo get hefty quirks to make up for it. so itll just have to boat lasers big deal, lasers are great on lights anyway.

and its geometry is entirely upto how it gets modeled. a lot of MWO mechs look nothing like their battletech artwork.

you claim its so bad but im just not seeing it.

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Huh? Sure it makse sense: they're trying to preserve the canon differences between tech bases

except thats been proven not to work. its not balanced. ISXL cannot be significantly worse than CXL if they expect IS and clan mechs to be balanced 1:1

so no it doesnt make sense. at all. ever.

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 08:17 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Pjwned, on 07 July 2017 - 07:50 PM, said:

Absolutely not, either all omnimechs have unlocked engines or none of them do.

The only thing this sort of change accomplishes is to make the rules an aborted mess while sidestepping the actual issues at hand.

Agreed this should be a Change for both Factions,
and i think its a Change in the Rules that would help Weaker OmniMechs,
much like unlocking Locked(Weapons- ADR Flamer)(Equipment- MLX CAP)(CASE- Avatar)

[Void Angel]

Andi Nagasia, on 07 July 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

and these MWO Rules can and should be Changed for Balance,

Not the way you want it. There is no possible case where this idea doesn't break balance, or require broken balance to work. If allowing engine types to change would be advantageous (and it is,) then either Inner Sphere Omnis are more powerful than Clan Omnis, or else Inner Sphere Battlemechs are underpowered compared to IS Omnis and Clan 'mechs. There's no way around that, and that is why this is a bad idea.

Edited by Void Angel, 07 July 2017 - 08:05 PM.

[Khobai]

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that is why this is a bad idea.

its a !@#$ing terrible idea

[LordNothing]

its not like any of the other build rules are exactly tt kosher. i kind of wish you could change engine types and even swap engines within a narrow range. like a +/- 3 engine ratings. is mechs would get more options over clan and maybe a wider range of ratings as well.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

Why is the owens garbage?

4E 2M seems okay for hardpoints. but it can easily be give 1-2 additional omnihardpoints on top of that.

280XL is still fast enough for a 35 tonner. the arctic cheetah at 30 tons only has a 240XL engine. so thats the same speed as the arctic cheetah.

and its geometry is entirely upto how it gets modeled. a lot of MWO mechs look nothing like their battletech artwork.

you claim its so bad but im just not seeing it.

SHS. No Endo. No Ferro. Hardwired BAP and TAG eat up your already limited pod space.

Do your homework next time.

[Andi Nagasia]

Void Angel, on 07 July 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Except that this would invalidate most Battlemechs with similar architecture, tonnage, and hardpoints. Why buy two or three Marauders for various roles when the Rakshasa does it all with higher mounts and more flexible hardpoints? Unless the Rakshasa has cripplingly bad hard locked internals, making it a poor substitute.

well because the Rakshasa isnt an OmniMech, so theirs that,
its based off the Mad Cat OmniMech, it isnt an OmniMech,

for instance lets look at the Sunder 90Ton IS OmniMech,
it stats out with a 360XL Engine Giving it 35.5Free Tons(Assuming Max Armor)
you move down to a LFE360, you lose 8.5Tons(27Free Tons), but you gain Extra Survivability,
would this Change(XL to LFE or XL to STD) be fore everyone, No, but it could offer some Flexibility to OmniMechs,
in this case this Change would benefit IS OmniMechs Mostly, but Clan still has the Choice,

Void Angel, on 07 July 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

Not the way you want it. There is no possible case where this idea doesn't break balance, or require broken balance to work. If allowing engine types to change would be advantageous (and it is,) then either Inner Sphere Omnis are more powerful than Clan Omnis, or else Inner Sphere Battlemechs are underpowered compared to IS Omnis and Clan 'mechs. There's no way around that, and that is why this is a bad idea.

Show me 1 Example where this Change would Break Balance? Just 1 Example in game Right now?

[Khobai]

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SHS. No Endo. No Ferro. Hardwired BAP and TAG eat up your already limited pod space.

so you make it a laser boat. lasers are the best thing to put on lights anyway. pod space issue solved.

and SHS is only a problem if they dont buff SHS which they obviously would need to do if omnis had locked SHS. so that issue is solved too.

No endo and no ferro means lots more quirks as well. So it will be a pretty nasty laser boat.

[Andi Nagasia]

FupDup, on 07 July 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

SHS. No Endo. No Ferro. Hardwired BAP and TAG eat up your already limited pod space.

Do your homework next time.

Personally i feel that some OmniMech Equipment should always be unlocked in MWO,
Weapons, CAP, BAP, TAG, those at least should be unlocked, the SHS is a hard one though,
coundnt really even make it a Laser Boat with SHS you'd be extreamly weak to any DHS mech,

[Khobai]

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SHS is a hard one though,
coundnt really even make it a Laser Boat with SHS you'd be extreamly weak to any DHS mech,

you could easily make it a laser boat with SHS if SHS were buffed.

like I said they would obviously have to buff SHS if they came as locked equipment.

make all internal heatsinks count as truedubs regardless of SHS or DHS and thats probably all youd need to do.

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 08:29 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

you could easily make it a laser boat with SHS if SHS were buffed.

like I said they would obviously have to buff SHS if they came as locked equipment.

that i agree with, ive always been the one to support,
C-DHSs having +1.5Displation but +1.0Cap, &
IS-DHSs having +2.0Displation but +1.5Cap, &
SHSs having +1.0Displation but +2.0Cap,
(IS-DHS get more because Size)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 07 July 2017 - 08:30 PM.

[Khobai]

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SHSs having +1.0Displation but +2.0Cap,

SHS shouldnt have a higher capacity. because then assault mechs could really stack tons of SHS to increase their heat cap through the roof. thats not a good idea.

I think they just need to make all internal heatsinks count as 2.0 true dubs.

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C-DHSs having +1.5Displation but +1.0Cap, &
IS-DHSs having +2.0Displation but +1.5Cap, &

And turning CDHS into complete garbage is not a good idea either. And im definitely not seeing how ISDHS should be nearly twice as good as CDHS just because they take up 1 extra crit slot. especially when clan weapons run way hotter than IS weapons. Clan mechs literally would not function with those heat sinks.

This is more balanced:
C-DHS = 1.5 dissipation and 1.5 cap
IS-DHS = 1.4 dissipation and 1.8 cap
IS-SHS = 1.2 dissipation and 1.2 cap and all internal heatinks count as 2.0 true dubs

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 09:00 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

I dont think SHS should have a higher capacity. because then assault mechs could really load on tons of SHS to increase their heat cap through the roof. thats not a good idea.

well they should be good at something, other wise they wont be a Viable Choice, hence the problem

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

I think they just need to make all internal heatsinks count as 2.0 true dubs.

in ways i agree but im not 100% sure,

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

And turning CDHS into complete garbage is not a good idea either. And im definitely not seeing how ISDHS should be nearly twice as good as CDHS just because they take up 1 extra crit slot. especially when clan weapons run way hotter than IS weapons.

just found the Stats on what Heat Sinks are now,

My New Stats,
C-DHSs having +1.8Displation(+0.3)Current is 1.5) but +1.5Cap(No Change), &
IS-DHSs having +2.0Displation(+0.5)Current is 1.5) but +1.5Cap(No Change), &
SHSs having +1.2Displation(No Change) but +2.0Cap(+0.8)Current is 1.2)

give SHSs a reason to Exist, or they will never be taken,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 07 July 2017 - 09:02 PM.

[Khobai]

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give SHSs a reason to Exist, or they will never be taken,

SHS would be ridiculously good if the internal heatsinks counted as 2.0 true dubs.

They might even be so good theyd have to be nerfed.



If all internal heatsinks were true dubs then external SHS could be straight up compared to DHS

10 SHS = 10 tons and 10 crits for 12 dissipation and 12 cap

8 IS-DHS = 8 tons and 24 crits for 12 dissipation and 12 cap

8 C-DHS = 8 tons and 16 crits for 12 dissipation and 12 cap

look how many crit slots youd save taking the SHS over the DHS. you spend 2 extra tons to save 14 crit slots!!!

that is absurd tonnage to critslot conversion. SHS would be super good if not outright broken then.

Edited by Khobai, 07 July 2017 - 09:18 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 07 July 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

SHS would be ridiculously good if the internal heatsinks counted as 2.0 true dubs.

They might even be so good theyd have to be nerfed.

how so, right now DHSs give 1.5 per DHS, which you can get about 28 if Clan,
a WHK can Mount 4LPL or 4ERPPCs and run 28DHSs (30 +(1.5x28)= 72Heat Cap)
where as IS mechs can usually at most Mount 18DHSs (30 +(1.5x18)= 57Heat Cap)
but as IS things are cooler this isnt a problem much at all,

but when Boating SHSs?
an AWS with Endo Max Engine and nothing but SHSs can only Mount 27SHSs,
so a 4PPC or 4ERPPC AWS Mounting 27SHSs (30 +(2.0x27)= 84Heat Cap)
not that much more than the Clan Max, so i dont see this as a problem,

remember we are talking Heat Cap, not dissipation,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 07 July 2017 - 09:16 PM.

[Khobai]

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how so

because theyre only 1 crit slot. you save an absurd number of crit slots. see above.