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Mastering A New Mech With Mech Exp Points: And, How That Is Chasing New Players Away....


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#41 Davegt27

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:22 PM

Quote

Six Sigma, Lean and TQM efficiency


never heard of sigma six then my old brain starts to kick in

lean as in lean logistics??
TQM = total quality management ??


Quote

a majority of us have been playing video games since computers could run them


now your really dating yourselves lol

welcome to MWO

#42 Kalleballe

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:24 PM

Trust me, if a new player go mostly group queue it is not fun at all.

#43 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:25 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 08 July 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:


But you needed to buy three mechs first AND at least basic two of them, in order to master the one variant you like, in the old skill three. That's over 85K XP, and millions of C-Bills wasted on mechs you didn't need.

Current ST is way better, since I can grind it out on the mech I chose to main. Not forced to play variants I do not like is a great plus for me.

Please note I was just comparing my avg "matches to master" to the OP's.

My thoughts on the Skill Tree for the NPE are... mixed.

#44 El Bandito

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:26 PM

View PostRampage, on 08 July 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

I do not blame the Skill Tree. I blame the indoctrination process. I blame the processes that allow brand new players to be matched with players with years of experience playing the game. This could all be easily rectified with just a little bit of effort and then maybe we could retain some of the new players who have tried the game but left in frustration after just a few games.


It is either the choice of loose MM or long wait time, due to low population. Both tend to drive the casuals away but PGI had to choose one. PGI chose loose MM.

#45 MechaBattler

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:26 PM

View PostAsym, on 08 July 2017 - 09:46 AM, said:

90 to 140 is not the norm?

Really?

I'm not a bad player and seriously took the time to master that Stormcrow.....

So far, the Hellbringer is worse than the Stormcrow. I play everyday.

Geeze, if you're a NOOB and mastering in 40 matches, something is a miss me thinks. I have, in the 5 months now, post skill tree change, not run into one person less than 75 games..........


If 90 to 140 is the average. Then with premium time that should be 45 to 70.
And it'll get shorter the better you get. The more optimal your builds become.
30 days premium time is $15. For $5 more you can get a basic pack with 30 days premium time and 3 mechs.
And if you're aiming to max out your gains. Pick a pack with mechs that have XLs, dubs, and any upgrades already on the mechs.

So if you wanted to get a friend into the game. A basic mech pack might be the best idea to smooth their entry. 30 days premium to pad their losses and bolster their wins. Mechs with upgrades to lower the cost of equipping a mech and get them a foundation of equipment to build off. Combine that with the Academy C-bills, Cadet Bonus, the lump sum of GXP after the first 25 matches. They should be able to establish themselves rather quickly at an optimal level. But it's ultimately about how much better you get at the game. And whether you enjoy the game for what it is.

#46 GrimRiver

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:29 PM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 08 July 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

It's still not nearly a bad a grind as pretty much all Free 2 Play games out there.

Ain't that the truth.

Currently playing Crossout, which is kinda like Robocraft with a wasteland RAGE kind of vibe, the grind is unreal and the cost of higher end gear is grossly inflated. But I can understand that it's trying to build a self sustaining economy.
Gameplay wise it's not bad.

C-bill earnings in MWO is pretty much handed to players along with free stuff from events almost every month which will boost their ability to get better mechs faster.

#47 Humpday

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:48 PM

View PostKalleballe, on 08 July 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

Trust me, if a new player go mostly group queue it is not fun at all.


Yeah don't be dropping group as a n00b, if you do, drop with very good players or else you'll be very miserable.
group is much faster, much more brutal, and you'll run against experienced units.

drop PUG get your feet under you.

#48 MAD-IIC-D

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:48 PM

View PostGwahlur, on 08 July 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

You are not a newb though so your experience is quite frankly irrelevant


No Im not new but how it's not relevant? OP was claiming it's too difficult to level a mech for new players.

The starter bonuses allow anyone who manages to play 25 games, to buy and fully level one mech. Even an expensive Clan assult.

If someone has problems levelling mechs it's OP and others, who are not totally new players, and who have used their early bonuses ages ago.

Okay I was partially mistaken, the GXP you get as bonus only gives you enough exp for 60 skill points. Still playing those 25 games should give you normal rewards for some more. New players problems are difficulty of the game in general.

#49 Dee Eight

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 12:49 PM

View PostAsym, on 08 July 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

So, after an evening of watching my matches on the big screen HD, the operative question came up: "OK, how long does it take to "master" a new mech if we jump in?"

Well, the stock answer was between 90 and 140 games.... In a stormcrow I mastered with experience points only, 143 games at a .42 win-loss average.... "did you like that?" was the question...... "no.......it wasn't any fun at all..." was the answer in all honesty.
What are your thoughts on this.....


If it took you 143 games with a .42 WLR... the problem isn't the game, nor the skill tree points system.... its all YOU. It took me on a brand new alt account, less than 40 games to 91 node master a SCR-D built with twin SRM6s and triple Streak-6s (and that's it... no tag, no backup laser, just short ranged missiles), which I bought and equipped after the academy and then ten cadet bonus games in trial mechs. I've posted about it before... i'll go find it and paste the relevant #s in here...


Posted 29 May 2017 - 05:31 PM
I finished the event saturday and was continuing to play and ninety-one my mechs one by one when last night I decided after reading someone say they were onto their 3rd account... why not finally make a second account just to test the skill tree fully from a fresh account perspective. Now granted I'm doing so with lots of game knowledge but I wouldn't have any easy grind cheats available unless I outright buy a hero or champion from the store, and no pool of historical XP and skill points to just pull from.

So I made a new account, ran the academy missions, got the 5 million bonus, then started with some trials mechs. Ten missions in trials (once KDK-3 and nine times the NVA-S... LARSH....it NEEDS more ammo), and then I bought a SCR-D, chucked its stock weapons load and fitted an active probe, 3 Streak-6s and 2 SRM6+Artemis, 8 tons of ammo, and that's it. Started playing it and started unlocking nodes. First mission out got 13k XP thanks to the 24hr new account premium time and the event bonus and the first win bonus (the three solo kmdds and 700+ damage and dozen limb amputations probably contributed too). I've just now finished the cadet 25 bonuses (so 15 in the crow) and I'm at 60 nodes unlocked, I have 5.2 million in the bank, and I haven't touched the bonus 48k GXP that is now the cadet 25 bonus. I've got 10 nodes in auxillary for double maxed coolshots and strikes, 19 in sensors for full radar dep, seismic and sensor range boosts, plus the info gathering and decay and 360 nodes along the way. 8 in operations to gun 6% max heat and 4% cool run (plus the stuff in between), and the other 23 are in the firepower tree.

I made one $6.95 MC purchase so this account will meet the MC loyalty prize this year AND I wanted to buy a horn. Plus once I hit the 10k match score and get all the prizes, I'll use the colors and the discounted one-shot camo's to complete this mech. Just need another decal sale to ice its cake. In 25 total matches I've reached 6,392 match score. I should be done the event by the 40th total match, and finished skill noding by the 25th in this mech. Then the account gets parked until the next event or sale happens. Also I will get to see how a minimal spending new occassional player, can do to build up value over the next few months.

Just converting the GXP and XP I was still gaining thru matches as I hadn't finished the 10k for the event yet. The last game got me over the top and now all 91 nodes are done. I still have the 48k bonus untouched. My balance is now 4.555 million c-bills, I still have 750MC after my horn buy, there's 5,200+ XP left on the mech if I wanted to re-skill it, and my match score total stands at exactly 9,400. So I need to keep playing for another hour maybe. My last match totaled 1,358 damage to the enemy and 151 to the team (my artillery strike during a raging brawl got more than just the enemy). 2 killing blows, 10 assists, 4 KMDD, 2 Solo, 7 components, 3 savior kills. 838 Match score. I earned 389k and spent 160k using all four consumables. It was a domination game in the sulphur springs, and we only lost 3 mechs and swept their team completely. The account is running a 258 match score average.

Over 24 matches acquiring the total of 91 nodes this is the mech stats...


STORMCROW SCR-D 24 15 9 1.67 19 17 1.12 11,288 73,209 02:56:17

And in all that time, I earned zero supply caches. Posted Image

Edit : did another match (still have 90 mins of premium time left, might as well earn cbills for the next mech purchase)... broke the record damage from the previous game. Canyons Skirmish. 1,398 damage and 717 match score. That's enough to get me to the event prizes. Solo KMDD'ed a MAD2C-Delta and a MAD-3R, and two assists being legged a dire and shot up a misery.


All of the above was accomplished on a five year old HP Pavilion P7-1240 with 10 gigs of DDR3-1600 ram, AMD A10-5700 at 3.4 Ghz and only its built-in Radeon graphics of a whopping half a gig video memory... my frame rate with virtually every graphics setting at lowest...was typically high single digits to mid twenties depending on the map, and even then I was running a 1600x900 native resolution monitor in windowed mode at 1280x768. I just got a new computer yesterday and am now seeing over 100fps in matches with a windowed 1600x900 and all settings of mediums to highs (the defaults when you do a fresh install).

#50 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:06 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 08 July 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

It took me on a brand new alt account,


A brand new "ALT" account is nothing like being a brand new player to the game. Presumably you already made all the noob mistakes on your regular account so you knew what to do and what not to do on your alt. It does not compare to the new player experience. Neither do the numbers that you achieved compare to those that can be expected from a brand new player.

View PostEl Bandito, on 08 July 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:


It is either the choice of loose MM or long wait time, due to low population. Both tend to drive the casuals away but PGI had to choose one. PGI chose loose MM.


I am not so sure that keeping Tier 5s only playing against Tier 5s would not be the lesser evil.

Edited by Rampage, 08 July 2017 - 01:10 PM.


#51 Kalleballe

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:09 PM

View PostDee Eight, on 08 July 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:


If it took you 143 games with a .42 WLR... the problem isn't the game, nor the skill tree points system.... its all YOU.

Uh, wrong thread to wag your E-peen. If he was matched with similar skilled players his w/l ratio would be close to 1 and so would yours.

#52 MadRover

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:23 PM

View PostTeer5 Kerensky, on 08 July 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:


New players problems are difficulty of the game in general.


Being a new player in a game that has been around for 5yrs is always going to be tough for that new player. there are resources out there on YouTube that these new people could use to help their game a little but its up to them to take it and practice those methods

#53 Grayseven

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:26 PM

I bought a Wolfhound 1A when they were on sale. Decided I was going to master it through game play rather than use my back of SP or GP.

I play strictly QP. Gave faction a try and while it is interesting trying to pug it is a lesson in frustration.

I get somewhere between 600 and 1600 xp per match, averaging somewhere around 1.5 skill points per match. That would put mastery at somewhere around 60 matches, give or take.

That doesn't seem too hateful. And it isn't like unmastered mechs aren't viable in QP.

The key seems to be in how you spend your SP and in what order. I prefer either Survival or Operations to start, though I will quickly pick up my extra consumables spot first. Then it's a mech by mech choice to where I go next.

And if you screw up, it isn't too much to respec once you figure out what you want or need.

Use the analytical skills you picked up while using 6 Sigma. Figure out what the mech needs. Is it maneuverable enough? Does it need armor quirks? Does it run hot? What role does it play? Ask the questions and use the skill tree to find the answers.

#54 Dee Eight

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:32 PM

View PostKalleballe, on 08 July 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

Uh, wrong thread to wag your E-peen. If he was matched with similar skilled players his w/l ratio would be close to 1 and so would yours.


look at his leaderboard results... ignoring the wlr and kdr #s and just looking at average match score.... under the current system where AMS usage is rewarded as are a # of other things than just the all mighty damage... 181 average so far this month and 205 last month and 232 the month before in which he played over ELEVEN HUNDRED GAMES. I did less than six hundred that month. This is NOT a new player by any means posting this rant.

#55 Mechwarrior4670152

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:35 PM

View PostMadRover, on 08 July 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:


no they need someone who can be effective and efficient to teach them how to get that 1.0 w/L ratio while also being a team player.

Which basically means dropping them with (and against) more experienced players.

Which is one of the big complaints that keeps being presented about the current matchmaker

#56 MischiefSC

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:51 PM

View PostKalleballe, on 08 July 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

Uh, wrong thread to wag your E-peen. If he was matched with similar skilled players his w/l ratio would be close to 1 and so would yours.


Yes and no.

Matchmaking is based on the principle of consistent improvement - so the more you play the better you get. It's why the tier system is an XP bar.

However even with constantly adapting matchmaking someone who is consistently improving will still be ahead of the curve and over 1.0 while someone who isn't will often be under 1.0 because while they would technically be a 1.0 based on skill matching, regularly deciding to take a derp mech would cause them to average bellow 1.0.

It's not about epeen, just habits. Pointing out that someone does better at something than someone else isn't about bragging or shaming - just an observation and relating it to how to help people do better.

#57 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 02:05 PM

View PostGusevich, on 08 July 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Yeah sure, but having more mastered mechs is THE ONLY point in MWO. There's no incentive or goal or endgame in this "MMO", i feel the same thing OP. I did try to get my friends who are a mild fan of BT to play this "game", but no luck as well.


If that's your "point to playing" the game, I'd argue you have OCD or a completionist problem. Play to have fun playing the game.

That being said, if the OP's point is that the grind takes too long, that's a fairly debatable point worth considering.

#58 Chados

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 02:09 PM

I remember when I started two years ago. Exactly two years ago.

Thirty days in, I had a KDR of 0.17 and a WLR about 0.2. I was >< that close to quitting. You can't get a lot of Cbills saved up at lower levels, and the cash you got for the 25 game bonus went fast when you had no clue how to spend it or what was important. Modules were expensive at a time that it was very difficult to save up 6,000,000 Cbills to buy yoour first radar deprivation module. And it was under the old ELO system that really meant no matchmaker at all in the pug queue. Plus, you had to have three mechs of each chassis to master one under the old system. The learning curve was near vertical, and my computer was a potato, which made things worse.

LRMing is what saved me, followed by a computer upgrade. LRM skirmishing is easy to learn, but very hard to master. I'd bought an X5, my very first hero mech. Bad choice. But it had missile mounts and I started running around with LRM5s. I ended up selling it-the only time I ever sold a hero, and much later during a sale I bought another one and mastered it-and I sold every other mech and piece of equipment I had, to get JUST enough Cbills to buy a Catapult C1 in the store to put LRM skirmishing to the test.

It worked. I began to be able to play, create damage, survive. I basiced it out, the very first time I was able to basic a mech. But to get to the next level I needed two more and could not easily amass the Cbills to buy a second-it would have taken much time. I had not ever tried premium time at that point. So, I bought my first mastery pack: Catapult Mastery. It came with the A1 missile Cat, the Jester, and the K2. And I began the Quest of Catapult Mastery, with the intent to master all the Catapults in the game. The Jester taught me about use of direct fire, mobility, and jump jets. I have over 300 drops in the CPLT-J, which still is my single most dropped-in mech, and Catapults still are three of my top five. I had all six mastered at the time of the skill tree transition. And today, my global KDR is 0.74, but my global WLR is nearly 0.9. Mediocre, yes. But I overcame a huge amount of very bad stats to get there. I'm T2, having worked my way up from the very bottom of T5 with that 0.17 KDR when the PSR system started in September 2015. I have 84 mechs now, and my best overall mech is one of the 85-ton assaults, a Warhawk, with 86 drops, a 1.8 WLR and 1.3 KDR. My next best mech is a Rifleman, a chassis I have a 20-plus year association with, and I never thought I'd ever be able to run a direct fire build routinely. And I joined one of the mid-range FW guilds, running group queue or FW a couple times a week with them since August 2015.

The social aspect of this game is vital to long term engagement and success. I love MWO because it's the only Mechwarrior game out there, I like to drive the mechs myself. I'm a veteran of the Mechwarrior series and I got my first taste of it in 1992 with Kesmai's Multiplayer Online Battletech, where I rose to the rank of Chu-Sa second grade, and ended as commander of the 17th Rasalhague Regulars of the DCMS when I lost my computer and left the game as a result. Kuritan warriors in MPBT were role players. We treated MPBT like a big role play, even learning rudimentary gamer's Japanese to greet each other in chat rooms with "konnichi-wa," and calling our Coordinator, a player who won his rank in combat, "tono," Lord.

MWO's social aspect was different. Of course, I wore the Dragon when I first started, and thus I was approached and tested early on by some nice guys from a long time Kurita unit-the 9th Sword of the Dragon, but at the time I didn't measure up to what they were looking for. One of them, Mighty Wings, took the time to go into private matches with me and give me some tips that I use to this day. I greatly appreciated his help and still do. Shortly thereafter, one of Kell's Commandos, Leone, took me under his wing and I ran several group drops with him. I still run group queue with Leone and some of the new players he tutors from time to time. Shortly thereafter I was recruited into the Seraphim Regiment, and now am ranked a veteran. I was a militia lance leader when we had our militia program, and I'm one of the few women in their ranks. These experiences kept me trying in the dark days when I couldn't win for losing and was fighting just to get that first Catapult mastered. New players need a sensei/rabbi to help them get started the right way. Mechwarriors like Leone and Koniving who make it their business to do that ought to get rewarded somehow in game. And Catalina Steiner's LRM guide helped make me a decent LRM skirmisher back before I transitioned into mostly running direct fire units. I still like to have one launcher as an adjunct, but my favorite guns are 10-class autocannon and large lasers now :) .

MWO is the most punishing game to new players I've ever played. I stuck with it for one reason, and that is that I love Battletech since I played MPBT on the GEnie servers. New players that don't have the Battletech/Mechwarrior/Mechcommander connections won't put up with the pain that Lore fans like me will. And the grind is worse than ever with the skill tree now, I've played around with it and end up going to my store of GXP and Cbills to master chassis that don't have legacy GSP from the module buyback program. I said when the skill tree dropped that the 25th mission needs to bring with it enough GSP to master one mech through 91 nodes, and enough Cbills to buy any one mech variant in the Store. And explicit instructions that the intention of the endowment is to give them a chance to master that one mech. And playing the trial mechs ought to build experience points, like it used to. There is no real incentive to run unmastered trial mechs, most of which sport meta builds requiring skill and experience to make work.

One last observation: The Hellbringer is a mech requiring high skill and experience-it is not new-player friendly. It's an aggro-magnet, it's hot, and its firepower is too high for its tonnage, unmastered you will shut down a *lot*. I'd recommend something along the lines of a true laserboat like one of the Thunderbolts as a new player direct fire mech on the IS side, or one of the IIC Orions on the Clan side. That's just my opinion.

By the way, I was trained as a Deming/TQM manager :) . I still manage that way. It's old school but I like it.

Edited by Chados, 08 July 2017 - 02:21 PM.


#59 Felbombling

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 02:45 PM

A few points to make on this topic. One, the grind now to Master a Mech is way better than the three to mastery system used before. It is both cheaper and less time consuming, overall. Two, MechWarrior: Online is pretty great concerning the availability of top tier equipment, from day one, if you play well during your cadet bonus period. Three, taking advantage of one of the many events PGI run, all of which are actually quite generous compared to similar games running events, and you can make some excellent headway.

#60 Asym

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 03:07 PM

Six Sigma, 3.4 errors per million events, isn't new school, its been around in one form or another for decades. No, SS tools are designed for linear systems.... Warfare is a "virtual event."

What we could do is run a Design for Six Sigma (DFSS) on MWO and actually determine what the MWO process is actually doing to CTQ ! Done that before in a high relaibility organizations and the results scared the bee-Jesus out of the executive management.

Thanks for the information and offers of assistance.

I am a MW fan and will always be one. Yes, the 143 game mastering isn't the "systems" fault. Pilot's pilot mechs and we are all human. Even us retired Armor officers, with thousands of hours of live fire and MCOFT/SIMNET hands on experience..... I know what 60 or 70 tons does and fully understand what a "hit box" is and how to not be a "hit box." So, If I'm struggling after decades of using the technologies this game plays with, imagine someone who has never set foot on real steel but LOVES the concept.....

I will say this: entering a PUG as an individual requires informed consent and a healthy dose of humility. I was on the losing team not because I did something NOOB..... I was on the losing team beacuse the Tier 2, 3 and 4 players couldn't win either; even with their mastered mechs and years of gameplay.... Match maker set those matches up as "12-0" diasters and I'd bet dollars to donuts that a team full of experienced players, dropped as individuals, would have lost to the "PUG farming" teams.

Again, thanks to all that forwarded ideas and offers to drop and learn.





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