124 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

PurplePuke, on 08 July 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

If you don't like the game before your mech is 91 mastered, you won't like it after it's 91 mastered.

You don't need mastered mechs to have fun and be effective.

I had a nice game in a trial HBK IIC last night and got 4 kills and did several hundred damage.

You still have weapons, armor, mobility and everything before skill points.

Exactly the point I made way back earlier in the tread. I am saving for the new tech so really feel I have the spare C-bills to skill up my mechs, however I have bought a new of new mechs. Now you might ask, "How is it you have enough C-bills to buy new mechs but don't have enough C-bills to buy skills?" The reason is that I can run these new mechs perfectly fine without the skills so I have postponed buying the skills until after the new tech drops and I can devote my C-bill income to just skills.

Sure skills enhance the mech and make it better in almost every way, but the core gameplay doesn't change because you don't have skills on your mech. The core gameplay is either fun or it isn't, its that simple. The grind for Skills is completely secondary to that which is why I kind of got on the OP about his attitude and pointed out that he, not the game, is likely the reason his friends do want to play.

As far as the skill grind itself, honestly yeah I feel it is a bit much in terms of both XP and C-bill costs but I feel that way for the same reason I pointed out above, because the core gameplay is the same. What I mean by the is because skills don't drastically alter the core game play I don't really see a reason why it need to take 50-60 or more matches to skill your mech up. That is a hell of alot of matches before you final see your mechs full potential. Also the way the skill tree is set up and the costs associated with it, don't encourage experimentation, in fact they discourage it which I feel is a major problem because one of the major features to this game is the ability to experiment and customize your mechs. That should be encouraged and it should be made easier.

However, that is for another thread really because this one is discussing how the skill grind causes people to not play which I think is false. As I said earlier, they are going to either enjoy the game or they won't but if you are trying to convince people to play and you start off by painting a negative picture of the game, then you've just shot yourself in the foot. If you do this, then you have already set them up to fail by predisposing them to believe they are going to have a negative experience and because of that most of them will. Simple as that. It is called a "Self Fulfilling Prophesy" Here is the definition.

Self-fulfilling prophecy. Any positive or negative expectation about circumstances, events or people that may affect a person's behavior toward them in a manner that causes those expectations to be fulfilled.


Yep, you tell them the game sucks and they are going to go out of their way to prove that statement is true.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 09 July 2017 - 08:16 AM.

[Asym]

UnofficialOperator, on 09 July 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

What OP wants is just not in MWO's design unfortunately.

1. He feels mechs come in a "degraded" status. Others view it as the advancement part of an MMO, like an MMORPG. If he wants everything to be equal, perhaps CSGO would be more his thing.

2. Group play has no Matchmaker or ELO so unfortunately he and his friends would probably be roflstomped. I mean with a negative WLR (I assume in T3-T5 solo queue), nothing would help much, even mastered mechs. If MWO had a big enough population to support Group Matchmaker/ELO, then OP and friends could probably stand a fighting chance.

Some of OP's views are odd though. I mean the last time I touched EVE, it took years to just max learning/training skills. Why not view that as "degraded" pilots then? If OP wants a totally "fair" game, then CSGO/Overwatch or any decent FPS would be good enough.

PS: since you are ex military, maybe you should check out Project Reality and its ilk if army life still interests you. When it first came out, the armor engine sounds were spot on. There is also Arma 3/Squad etc.

Greetings ! I hope I am using the response editor correctly.

First off, thanks for the referrals to Military themed games.... It's a large world and your input there helps a lot.

Your point 1): yes, when you are buying a new mech from PGI it is an "export" version. You are required to "upgrade" it to some version you like.... The problem is, that's about as goofy as it gets. If we buy a mech, it should be the "as built and designed" version. A first class weapon. The skill tree should be "perks or tweaks" as needed for mission.

Why? Because gameplay and the lethality of the battlespace would change the way MWO is played.... Teamwork and combined arms theory would be a necessity.... Vehicles would revert to familar roles. You'd die a lot quicker and you'd have to rely on your "team" just to survive..... Not equal: real and based on the origins of the MW universe.

2) You are correct. Group drops without an entire team sponsoring 4 or 5 NOOBs is problematic at best. There are European teams doing this and I run into them in groups of 2 - T2/3's supporting a Noob. Right now, MM is broken due to population and individual mastering is still a mess. I am averaging 185 points a game with the Hellbringer and have 62,500 points to go. That's a LONG time.............. It's not because I'm a poor player..... The drops have been 12-0, 12-1 and you just have to "grind" for weeks sometimes......... Dropping with the team that is hosting me isn't any better. Faction play was so bad we haven't gone back..........

Odd views. Look, take elitedangerous. You get a ship and a hug and the game say's: "go forth and do something....." On a playing platform with literally "thousands" of maps.... A grind you control. Teams do carry NOOBS as they travel and help along the way. WoW. My brothers are both Navy types and they are putting together the FPS shooter team they competed internationally with several years ago ! God help WoW because they were in the top 5% of that game.....

I greatly appreciate you advice and help.

I started this post in hopes "someone" in our midst is the PGI "scout" and is avtually reading what we have to say. Many gaming corporations plant "scouts" in the player base..... LoL is 100% game players. You can't work there if you can't play the game ! Talk about input from the customers !!

Again, many thanks

[LT. HARDCASE]

Dee Eight, on 08 July 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

look at his leaderboard results... ignoring the wlr and kdr #s and just looking at average match score.... under the current system where AMS usage is rewarded as are a # of other things than just the all mighty damage... 181 average so far this month and 205 last month and 232 the month before in which he played over ELEVEN HUNDRED GAMES. I did less than six hundred that month. This is NOT a new player by any means posting this rant.

Wait..... what? I assumed we were talking to a player who just completed the Cabet Bonus or something.

This changes my opinion a bit.

[TwoTigers]

If the complainers would play MWO as much as they complain on the forum's they would have mastered multiple mechs by now.
they want for free what we all had to work hard to earn,that being experience,mechs,skill points and MC.

[C E Dwyer]

Asym, on 08 July 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

I invited a few of my friends over to watch MWO in action....
Stuff about skill tree

Do your friends like World of tanks or similar games. ?
If the answer is no, then they were not likely to enjoy this game either before, or after the skill tree.

I am rather neutral on the skill tree.

It was in my view a complete waste of money and time, it certainly hasn't made the game better, but it hasn't made it any worse.

It hasn't removed the need for quirks, like P.G.I claimed, it also isn't needed for the new tech, another thing P.G.I were claiming.

They could just have easily desynced the engines, created a useful alternative for aim time, and had pretty much what we've got now without the additional cost.

But to say that the skill tree is the reason for people to not play, simply is not the sole reason for not investing time in the game.

It's just a time and C-bill sink like the old skill tree, and the tree in world of tanks, only in very little nibbles, and not big chunks

[Bigbacon]

i think the ST would be fine if they REMOVED the cbill requirement for SP points.

[Tarl Cabot]

And what can really make things go south in the Group queue is when the groups are not running near tonnage limits, which can cause a huge weight discrepancy. As an example if there is an overall 250-ton difference, that is a lot of armor to get through.

Quote

2) You are correct. Group drops without an entire team sponsoring 4 or 5 NOOBs is problematic at best. There are European teams doing this and I run into them in groups of 2 - T2/3's supporting a Noob. Right now, MM is broken due to population and individual mastering is still a mess. I am averaging 185 points a game with the Hellbringer and have 62,500 points to go. That's a LONG time.............. It's not because I'm a poor player..... The drops have been 12-0, 12-1 and you just have to "grind" for weeks sometimes......... Dropping with the team that is hosting me isn't any better. Faction play was so bad we haven't gone back

Population can be an issue but the MM is taking in, iirc an AVERAGE of the group PSR, so T2-T3s w/T4 would drop into the pool with T1-T2 while tonnage is not taken into consideration.

That 185pts out of 62,500pts to go, you are talking about XP, correct? Are you playing the hellbringer as a sniper? There is more involved than simple damage to generate the those points, which you are also generating gxp. About the only time my XP generated is low is when I do something silly like go take a cap by myself then run into 4 others, or be the first around a corner and right into the fire.

Okay, just looked at OP stats, which seriously started in Season 8. You are playing anywhere from 500-1000+ games/month. And only one month so far where your W/L and K/D was about 1.0 mark, otherwise your K/D is around the 0.7 mark. You have played more games in the last 4 seasons than I have since PGI changed to the current Leadership boards. There are a few seasons (months) where I played 200 matches in the S/GQ. There will be less monthly matches in the FP.

Have you used up all of your GXP? Aren't you claiming your loot bags for the current event which is awarding tons of Cbills, GXP, MC, etc? When discussion the purchasing SP, did you not also discuss the events that PGI puts forth to earn additional funds?

And yes, I am an old fart (chuckles) Tis in my signature, played all the MPBT series, the MW and all but Mechassault. I love the Battletech universe

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 09 July 2017 - 11:01 AM.

[Dogstar]

Part of the problem is that there's a serious difference in the NPE depending primarily on whether you prefer IS or Clan and secondarily on whether you buy mechs or not.

Going clan is much better for the new player thanks to the basic advantages Clan mechs have from stock. IS mechs need a lot of additional investment in order to bring them up to spec from stock but it's not obvious to the new player and therefore someone like me (old school battletech fanboy) ends up with a worse NPE experience than others.

Additionally if you buy mechs for cash you have that cadet bonus to spend on upgrading and skilling them but if you buy mechs with C-bills then you have a lot less available for that.

Which means that effectively there are _four_ different new player experiences:

• Go Clan for $ - best
  
• Go Clan for c-bills - good for skilled players, okay for others
  
• Go IS for $ - okay for skilled players, bad for most
  
• Go IS for c-bills - worst

So half of new players end up with a tougher learning experience than necessary - no wonder we don't get very many!

Lastly, the game really does punish new players who want to play together because they are pushed into the group queue where they get screwed over a barrel.

We probably need to allow 3-4 man groups into the 'solo' queue (obviously with some suitable matchmaking applied because that could seriously unbalance games)

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

We probably need to allow 3-4 man groups into the 'solo' queue (obviously with some suitable matchmaking applied because that could seriously unbalance games)

Max 2-man. And before others chime in, when group dropped w/solo there was no internal VOIP, which then would have been the major advantages. I guess the other advantage would have been that they WANTED to play as a team. Two, there was no limit on how many groups per side. If this was added it would have to limit it to one 2-man per side. And the PSR would not be averaged, it would take the player w/higher PSR.

[kyfire]

GrimRiver, on 08 July 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Ain't that the truth.

Currently playing Crossout, which is kinda like Robocraft with a wasteland RAGE kind of vibe, the grind is unreal and the cost of higher end gear is grossly inflated. But I can understand that it's trying to build a self sustaining economy.
Gameplay wise it's not bad.

C-bill earnings in MWO is pretty much handed to players along with free stuff from events almost every month which will boost their ability to get better mechs faster.

I play Crossout too and it's way more of a PAY2Win than MWO could ever be!

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Johnny Z, on 08 July 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

Never done it on the new system so cannot comment but I wonder how it compares to World of Warships for getting a top pvp ready mech. Not mid or lower tier WOW ships but top tier fully ready.

As far as I know Mechwarrior Online has the least grind to get a player into top lvl pvp readiness. Has this changed since the skill tree and World of Warships and the rest have less grind than MechWarrior Online?

In short how many hours does it take to have a mastered mech fully outfitted?

I think Wot and WoWs has much longer grind, and being able to use gold ammo requires premium time for most people. I would not say that F2P players are at huge disadvantage.

BUT.

In MWO the player learning takes a much longer and the difference is skill much bigger. In WGs games beginners see experienced good players a lot less, because most of them don't want to play lower tier. In MWO the tier system doesn't really separate low skilled people from average and better much at all. This probably contributes further to the skill differences and how crucial player skill is.

I don't believe it has that much to do about the lack of popularity of this game. Maybe little but I think for most parts it's the genre not having so much appleal, and how previous mechwarrior and related titles are so old.

[Willard Phule]

Asym, on 08 July 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

I invited a few of my friends over to watch MWO in action....

We are all retired Six Sigma, Lean and TQM efficiency types that want to do something together after sun sets. So far, so good. And, a majority of us have been playing video games since computers could run them (and, a few before.....)

So, after an evening of watching my matches on the big screen HD, the operative question came up: "OK, how long does it take to "master" a new mech if we jump in?"

Well, the stock answer was between 90 and 140 games.... In a stormcrow I mastered with experience points only, 143 games at a .42 win-loss average.... "did you like that?" was the question...... "no.......it wasn't any fun at all..." was the answer in all honesty.

The response was "OK, let's see how this works then..."

I purchased a Hellbringer and off we went: it costs 800 exp points per skill tree node. That's 72,800 for the mech..... A two day average playing is 100 skill points per match with a .35 W/L ratio.....................

How many of my friends are signing up for MWO? Zip, Zero, Zilch.

So, for us retired guys, "Critical to Quality" is having an enjoyable experience, having some fun and chiding each other on VOIP/Teamspeak.... It's not hours of people screaming at you, endless losses that you can do nothing about and a "grind" that is counter-intuitive: buy a degraded mech and suffer returning that mech to how is was manufactured in the first place???

Do you think a space capable universe would issue degraded equipment to front line forces?

What are your thoughts on this.....

1. Faction Warfare sure ain't the place to grind it, is it?

2. Tough *****. Those of us that have suffered through multiple iterations of "balancing," failure to meet advertised expectation and lack of any form of matchmaker have earned our stripes. Our stripes happen to be tons of GXP earned. Is what it is, cupcake. If I were you, I'd be MORE upset that PGI doesn't think you're worth keeping around.

You see, there's a cycle to this game. Big advertisement, mech pack sales, lots of noise and....clusterf*ck. Lather, rinse, repeat if necessary. PGI has never and will never care about player retention. They figure give them 10 minutes, they'll find another sucker that looks just like you.

[TheArisen]

I think the first thing is you have to understand the F2P model. The long and short of it is there needs to be enough of a grind to make things like premium time valuable so the devs can actually make money. MWO is pretty nice compared to other f2p games imo.

How many friends are you playing with? It can be difficult to carry several guys and 2 man groups can run into trouble as well. I don't know what tier you are but you could be dragging them up to play against ppl of your tier. I'd recommend grouping up with a unit or some of the guys in this thread. If you want you can add me as well.

You can also play private matches until they're confident. Honestly I think player skill is more important than a mastered mech but a mastered mech is helpful.

[Alex Morgaine]

I managed to get 2 people to join up, group MM hell (or lack of) and all. They both surprisingly like the skill tree.

It's still better then the placeholder from before.

[CFC Conky]

TheArisen, on 09 July 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

I think the first thing is you have to understand the F2P model. The long and short of it is there needs to be enough of a grind to make things like premium time valuable so the devs can actually make money. MWO is pretty nice compared to other f2p games imo.
....

Hello all,

I've never thought of MWO as a F2P game but rather, a AAA title with paid expansion packs. Sure, you can do it all for free but it will take a looooong time.

Now your typical AAA game goes for what, $60? In MWO that will easily get you a couple of mastery packs which give you a mech that gives a xp bonus, one that gives a c-bill bonus and a generic mech that can be surprisingly effective right off the bat, depending on the pack. All that plus a month of premium time. Or, you could go for one of the more recent collector packs and get four mechs, one with a c-bill bonus and up to sixty days premium time for forty bucks, fifty-five if you pick up the hero or reinforcements.

Either will get you well on your way when it comes to the grind and from then on you won't have to spend another nickel.

But I bet you will....lol.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 10 July 2017 - 08:28 AM.

[UnofficialOperator]

LT. HARDCASE, on 09 July 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

Wait..... what? I assumed we were talking to a player who just completed the Cabet Bonus or something.

This changes my opinion a bit.

Yeah same for me. If someone can play that many games and still have those stats, its pretty telling. Nevertheless, group play for new players trying to play together is very punishing. MWO is pretty much solo QP.

[TheArisen]

CFC Conky, on 09 July 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

Hello all,

I've never thought of MWO as a F2P game but rather, a AAA title with paid expansion packs. Sure, you can do it all for free but it will take a looooong time.

Now you typical AAA game goes for what, $60? In MWO that will easily get you a couple of mastery packs which give you a mech that gives a xp bonus, one that gives a c-bill bonus and a generic mech that can be surprisingly effective right off the bat, depending on the pack. All that plus a month of premium time. Or, you could go for one of the more recent collector packs and get four mechs, one with a c-bill bonus and up to sixty days premium time for forty bucks, fifty-five if you pick up the hero or reinforcements.

Either will get you well on your way when it comes to the grind and from then on you won't have to spend another nickel.

But I bet you will....lol.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

F2p doesn't mean terrible game or something. MWO is based on WoT which has been one of the most popular F2p games around. You don't have to pay to play, you pay for convenience. Premium time, mech bays, colors, camo, decals and mech packs. None of them are required to play the game, they just make it easier or more enjoyable, etc.

[Messiah Complex]

I definitely agree the game is a bit daunting for the uninitiated. I brought a friend into the game and at first it was rough cause I was still newish and this was before skill tree, he has come back to the game since after skill tree and is having a blast because I know MUCH more and im in a unit with other good players. Having a good base mech and a good build is MUCH!!!! more important than having the mech skilled out. It really sounds like your friends are just new to the game and need more practice and also a good mentor on where to fight and what builds are viable for different mechs and roles. Ill also add it helps to have a few other people from a group around also so you all can carry you brand new potatoes into battle while you grow them into fine killing machines.

[Angel of Annihilation]

CFC Conky, on 09 July 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

Hello all,

I've never thought of MWO as a F2P game but rather, a AAA title with paid expansion packs. Sure, you can do it all for free but it will take a looooong time.

Now you typical AAA game goes for what, $60? In MWO that will easily get you a couple of mastery packs which give you a mech that gives a xp bonus, one that gives a c-bill bonus and a generic mech that can be surprisingly effective right off the bat, depending on the pack. All that plus a month of premium time. Or, you could go for one of the more recent collector packs and get four mechs, one with a c-bill bonus and up to sixty days premium time for forty bucks, fifty-five if you pick up the hero or reinforcements.

Either will get you well on your way when it comes to the grind and from then on you won't have to spend another nickel.

But I bet you will....lol.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Yeah I am an old school MMO player from back when they were called MMORPG. $50 box, $15/mo sub fee and usually a $50 box expansion every year. That equals around $230-$280 a year in order to play a MMO back in the day. That being said, I usually allocate $20/mo for any "Free-to-play" game I play as it makes playing that game a hell of alot more of an enjoy able experience because they are designed around actually paying (since they need to make a profit and all to keep the game running you know).

Today though, people are spoiled as hell. They seem to expect to have the same experience as a pay-to-play player like myself and that is not going to happen.

So my recommendation is quit being cheap, drop a bit of cash which supports the game. Spend $35 to get one of the already released mech packs which gives 4 mechs, 3 standard and 1 hero which boosts income, plus 30 days premium time and you should be good to go as a new player.

[Dogstar]

Willard Phule, on 09 July 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

2. Tough *****. Those of us that have suffered through multiple iterations of "balancing," failure to meet advertised expectation and lack of any form of matchmaker have earned our stripes. Our stripes happen to be tons of GXP earned. Is what it is, cupcake. If I were you, I'd be MORE upset that PGI doesn't think you're worth keeping around.

Wow, you're making yourself look like a major jerk talking like this, lrn2empathise!