124 replies to this topic

[Basilisk222]

OK, so let's just go over this real quick.

"OK, how long does it take to "master" a new mech if we jump in?"

Far longer than giving it 91 Skill points. The reason i actually like the new system they have, is it allows me to compensate for things. There's some basic, every mech should have this, and there is definitely some, let's make this better at this.

For instance, a NOVA.Let's say you pack it to the hilt with lasers. Obviously you're going to want cool run and heat containment. But do you want to pop tart, or brawl? If your'e pop tarting, you might want to invest in beam duration and jump jets, in a brawl, you might want further heat drops and structure boosts.

Each mech will feel just a bit different. and let's not forget, your XP here, 72,800 XP. So let's see, I think it was what 20K to master, like 33 to elite, and like 9 to basic, and you had to basic 3 chassis to unlock elite on that chassis. THEN you had to get GXP high enough to unlock modules, THEN buy those modules (you could have like 5, and each of those was like 3-5 million. So let's really put that in perspective.

You needed to buy and play with minimum 3 mechs from the same chassis line, REGARDLESS if you liked them at all, you had to buy them, suffer through using them, and get 9K exp with them to level the one you DID like. Never mind that you bought it because you thought you MIGHT like it and maxing it out is really the only way you could find out.

I might add, GXP wouldn't save you, you needed to basic 3 chassis. Period. So even if you had enough GXP to max out a shiny mech popsicle, you still couldn't do it because elite was locked out until you had all 3 chassis

I'd like to point out the Dire Wolf costs 20 million C-Bills, You needed 3. If you average 300K per match, that's 60 matches per D-wolf just to afford them. IF you leave them stock, which you won't. I'd say 5 million in weapons per chassis.

Honestly, It's way better than it was for a newer player.

The thing is MWO is not a hero shooter, and it's not a third person twitch shooter. It's not particularly fast paced. It's team based, tactical warfare. It's not everyone's bag. It's kind of niche. I like it cause it's different. But that's a lot of why people hate it too. It's a huge learning curve, and though it's better, it's still a really rough game to play and learn. Because established veterans have free reign to the kiddie pool.

As much as the new system gets hate, Honestly, I think it's way friendlier.

*Fixed some stuff.

Edited by Basilisk222, 10 July 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[davoodoo]

Coolant, on 08 July 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

The goal of playing MWO is not to master mechs, it's to have fun. If all I had to look forward to was mastering mechs then I would've stopped playing a long time ago. I play because I enjoy the game. Even if there were only a couple of weapons, mechs, and no skill tree/modules/Elite/Master I would still play because I enjoy Mechwarrior.

Oh, and has been mentioned before, all MMO's have grinding, some much worse than MWO.

Well yeah, but how to maximize fun? being able to compete against other players.
What do other players have?? mastered mechs.
What i need to do to match their advantage?? master mine

You arent providing any points by saying its about fun, youre avoiding argument which you find uncomfortable.

Now mastering mechs, i could live with exp but 45k for each point for a total of 4.1m for mastered mech is too much, thats on average 1/3rd of the mech cost which isnt going towards getting your next machine.

[Vordhosbn11]

Jay Leon Hart, on 08 July 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Energy Draw was, at the concept level, something that would help the New Player Experience.

Being able to actually survive first contact with the enemy is vital to a game with only one life per match. (CW? What's that?)

Alas, it got bastardised into something horrid and never heard from again.

ED was a smoldering pile of ****. So happy it didn't make it.

[R Valentine]

The grind definitely sucks. It discourages me from buying new mechs too. GXP rewards are pretty dismal, so you can't count on that to update your new roster. Friends who are just started pretty much say, "**** that" and never play the game again. Your mech's performance degrades way too much without skill points, and for new players that's the only way they can play. Some builds aren't really doable without skills. We knew all of this way ahead of the skill tree. Yes, the rule of 3 sucked too, but I don't really think we've made any progress on that front. We've traded 1 grind for another. Yes, hurr hurr, all MMOs have a grind, but this isn't an MMO and at least in WoW I could level up doing PvE, not getting my *** handed to me by vets with 600 days of banked premium time over and over again. Since leveling up in this game essentially means letting everyone pound on you until you have half decent skills, it's no fun at all.

[A Really Old Dude]

I created a brand new account, got enough cbills in the first 20 games to buy a bushwacker and a grasshopper to see exactly how long it would take to get these to 91 skill points with no historical help.

grasshopper took about 50 games
bushwacker took about 70 games
And yes taking conquest games is like double jeopardy XP

grasshopper was easier as I could stand back a bit and pound away with three er large and 5 mediums for in close, racking up 500+ damage in most games, it also has a positive K/D ratio. (personally I wish KMDD was a recorded stat as I think mech shines for it)
Bushwacker took a bit longer as I have to get in close and until I had the speed tweek and radar derp I would get focused fired by LRM's.

ps: getting GXP from some of the titles helped a bit and the last event gave one or two gxp bonus's

[Angel of Annihilation]

davoodoo, on 10 July 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

Well yeah, but how to maximize fun? being able to compete against other players.
What do other players have?? mastered mechs.
What i need to do to match their advantage?? master mine

You arent providing any points by saying its about fun, youre avoiding argument which you find uncomfortable.

Now mastering mechs, i could live with exp but 45k for each point for a total of 4.1m for mastered mech is too much, thats on average 1/3rd of the mech cost which isnt going towards getting your next machine.

Your acting like you can't have good matches in an unskilled mech where the simple fact is yes you can. Honestly it is the team that determines if you win or lose, not a few SPs. Also you become competitive by increasing your skill, simple as that. Also every match your typically getting at least enough XP and usually 2-3 times the C-bills required to buy at least 1 SP, sometimes more so each match your mechs capabilities edges up a tiny bit, just like your skill. Seriously it is not that big of an issue.

Also the cost is far, far cheaper now than it was. Sure your spending 4.1 million C-bills to skill out your mech, but as you said that is ONLY about 1/3rd the cost of new mech. Previously, if you were playing before the Skill Tree came out, you had to buy THREE different variants of the same mech to Master a mech. So lets do the math:

33% of the cost of a new mech

Or

200% of the cost of a new mech.

If my math is right, 4.1 million is alot less than 24.6 million or is that wrong?

Methinks that I could actually purchase and master at least 2 mechs now for every 1 mech I could before. Much, Much cheaper.

That being said, I still think its too much and acts as a barrier to experiencing the full content of this game rather than adding anything positive to it. I have kept saying this over and over and over, over the last 5 years. There are 500+ variants in this game which on average cost 10 million a piece. This means that there is over 5 billion C-bills worth of content available not including the cost for weapons and other upgrades. 5 billion C-bills would take me 29,411 games to earn or at 10 minute per game 4,902 hours of game play. At 4 hours a day that would take me 1,225 straight days or 3.3 years, playing 7 days a week to earn. Do we really need a 4 million C-bill, C-bill Sink per mech in this game?

Also if PGI made it easier to be able to afford to buy mechs, I wonder how many mech bays they would sell? Hmm 500 mechbays at 300mc a piece = 150,000 MC. That is alot of MC. $600 worth in fact. Worried people won't by mech packs...nah, not when you hold the mechs hostage for 3-6-10 months before they release for C-bills. Most people willing to spend the money for a mech pack are they type that want the mech now anyway and anyone who does wait for the C-bill release wouldn't have spent money for a mech pack in the first place.

So is the cost of Skilling up a mech too much? Yep, sure is. Does it prevent you from having fun. Not in the slightest.

[Dogstar]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

So lets do the math:

Your math is correct but your assumptions aren't good for all cases.

e.g. I bought the Javelin collector's pack, that's six mechs each of which needs a new engine and/or chassis and/or armour and/or weapons AS WELL AS 4+m c-bills for skills.

So for people who are buying mech packs that fund the company there's quite a big grind to get them up to spec which has the effect of discouraging buying mech packs - gg PGI, gg.

Points:

- I know you don't need SP to have a good game but they do help
- I'm not going to sell some of those mechs to fund the others, not the least because they're not worth much secondhand
- I do want to skill them all up otherwise what's the point of buying them
- Yes it would be better if we could buy mechs a la carte but PGI won't cooperate on that

[davoodoo]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

Your acting like you can't have good matches in an unskilled mech where the simple fact is yes you can. Honestly it is the team that determines if you win or lose, not a few SPs. Also you become competitive by increasing your skill, simple as that. Also every match your typically getting at least enough XP and usually 2-3 times the C-bills required to buy at least 1 SP, sometimes more so each match your mechs capabilities edges up a tiny bit, just like your skill. Seriously it is not that big of an issue.

Also the cost is far, far cheaper now than it was. Sure your spending 4.1 million C-bills to skill out your mech, but as you said that is ONLY about 1/3rd the cost of new mech. Previously, if you were playing before the Skill Tree came out, you had to buy THREE different variants of the same mech to Master a mech. So lets do the math:

33% of the cost of a new mech

Or

200% of the cost of a new mech.

If my math is right, 4.1 million is alot less than 24.6 million or is that wrong?

Methinks that I could actually purchase and master at least 2 mechs now for every 1 mech I could before. Much, Much cheaper.

That being said, I still think its too much and acts as a barrier to experiencing the full content of this game rather than adding anything positive to it. I have kept saying this over and over and over, over the last 5 years. There are 500+ variants in this game which on average cost 10 million a piece. This means that there is over 5 billion C-bills worth of content available not including the cost for weapons and other upgrades. 5 billion C-bills would take me 29,411 games to earn or at 10 minute per game 4,902 hours of game play. At 4 hours a day that would take me 1,225 straight days or 3.3 years, playing 7 days a week to earn. Do we really need a 4 million C-bill, C-bill Sink per mech in this game?

Also if PGI made it easier to be able to afford to buy mechs, I wonder how many mech bays they would sell? Hmm 500 mechbays at 300mc a piece = 150,000 MC. That is alot of MC. $600 worth in fact. Worried people won't by mech packs...nah, not when you hold the mechs hostage for 3-6-10 months before they release for C-bills. Most people willing to spend the money for a mech pack are they type that want the mech now anyway and anyone who does wait for the C-bill release wouldn't have spent money for a mech pack in the first place.

So is the cost of Skilling up a mech too much? Yep, sure is. Does it prevent you from having fun. Not in the slightest.

Because i cant, i know i could push my mech further if had better better cooling, produced less heat, had shorter cooldowns, more range, more armor, more structure and better mobility.

Of no fault of my own every new mech i pilot is detriment to the team. But maybe you find it fun not being able to push limits of what you could do.

Also you assume i want 1 mech, how about when i want 3 of them.
Now i pay for 4th mech when previously it didnt cost me anything...


It wasnt good system, but slapping extra cost on everything serves no gameplay purpose and defense of it being better in certain cases than older system is worst argument you can have.
Either its gonna be done perfectly or there will be complaints...

On rest we can agree.

Also i wonder how their 6.5 mil for mech preorder is supposed to last for anything...

Lets take nightstar standard
3 mechs, all need engine swap. 4mil a pop for light engine. 4mil a pop for skilling up, thats 24mil already.
Thank god they all have dhs, but you still need to put 3x endo and swap few weapons and maybe you have some spare pulses and gausses but thats it.

6.5mil was enough for refit 2 mechs back when i was purchasing marauder, but for civil war and skill tree it wont allow me to get 1 mech ready.

Edited by davoodoo, 11 July 2017 - 10:15 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Yeah I am an old school MMO player from back when they were called MMORPG. $50 box, $15/mo sub fee and usually a $50 box expansion every year.

Good thing this isn't an MMORPG then huh?

[davoodoo]

Well if we sum up amount of money ppl spend on it then it would probably be cheaper with a sub...

Though mmofps with a sub? i know of 1 and it went for f2p at sequel.

Edited by davoodoo, 11 July 2017 - 10:25 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 11 July 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Though mmofps with a sub? i know of 1 and it went for f2p at sequel.

This isn't even an MMOFPS though, this is just a simple PvP FPS game much more like TF2/Overwatch. Sure I guess you could count the fact this game has FW/CW/whatever they are calling it now, but considering how few play in that arena I wouldn't consider it a big enough factor.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 July 2017 - 10:31 AM.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 July 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

This isn't even an MMOFPS though, this is just a simple PvP FPS game much more like TF2/Overwatch. Sure I guess you could count the fact this game has FW/CW/whatever they are calling it now, but considering how few play in that arena I wouldn't consider it a big enough factor.

Lets even assume mwo gets (semi) open world with missions and stuff.

What i mean is that it would be precedent and i just cant see that working in the long run.

[Zenthious]

Asym, on 08 July 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

I purchased a Hellbringer and off we went: it costs 800 exp points per skill tree node. That's 72,800 for the mech..... A two day average playing is 100 skill points per match with a .35 W/L ratio.....................

That's not that much above the old system. If I'm not mistaken each tier in the old system was about 20K XP for a total of something like 65K? So, It's really pretty close to the same amount of grind except that it also cost a bit of cbills now as well.

Asym, on 08 July 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

What are your thoughts on this.....

It depends entirely on what you are doing. Some mechs are definitely harder to finish, but a good build practically unlocks itself. When I'm hitting those 900 damage games I'm definitely having more fun then when I'm getting one shot killed in a less efficient mech. So, if you find yourself struggling, change mechs for a bit or rethink your build. Half the fun for me is swapping things around to see how much I can truly get out of mech.

[Asym]

Zenthious, on 11 July 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

That's not that much above the old system. If I'm not mistaken each tier in the old system was about 20K XP for a total of something like 65K? So, It's really pretty close to the same amount of grind except that it also cost a bit of cbills now as well.



It depends entirely on what you are doing. Some mechs are definitely harder to finish, but a good build practically unlocks itself. When I'm hitting those 900 damage games I'm definitely having more fun then when I'm getting one shot killed in a less efficient mech. So, if you find yourself struggling, change mechs for a bit or rethink your build. Half the fun for me is swapping things around to see how much I can truly get out of mech.

I never have had a PUG match in the new HBR over 400......even assuming I lived throught the entire match.... I stopped mastering the mech and spent the GXP and finished it. A significant improvement but, still not able to break a 400 damage a game in PUG.

I've played a lot over the past 5 months, as some have commented, and I'm not incompotent at this game..... But, no matter what I can do, 900 damage in a HBR is never going to happen. In lights, even less..... The only 900 games I've ever seen were pre-skill tree in my LRM Gyr's working right behind the mechs on the FLOT......

So, imagine yourself as a NOOB: 12-0 loss; 12-2 Loss;........4 hours later, the string of Losses continues and you are averaging 150 per game.... When will I finish.........ah, that's weeks away............and, I just can't see how this is a positive environment?

The thread is about how to keep the new pilot's from leaving? Remember, many of us bought mech packs BEFORE we tried the game.........

[Cementi]

New system is infinitely better as you can with only a handful of games pick up really strong upgrades that used to be modules when before you would have had to buy two additonal mechs you did not want, in some cases were horrible to play because they were bad and then you had to master them all to be able to put 1/4 of those powerful upgrades on your mech.

[Alexander of Macedon]

davoodoo, on 11 July 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

Lets even assume mwo gets (semi) open world with missions and stuff.

What i mean is that it would be precedent and i just cant see that working in the long run.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Shirley, you can't be serious.

[davoodoo]

Alexander of Macedon, on 11 July 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Shirley, you can't be serious.

Im not, thats
THEORETICAL
assumption

I know well how impossible that is.

[scadateck]

I don't disagree with you OP. What can I say to try and help. Feel free to disregard - not trying to be preachy.

I would recommend checking the steamcharts.com MWO page for active player stats before you drop. The experience is better if there's at least 1100 active players, matchmaker works a little better. Less than that and the extremes start to show, it goes from unskilled (last night I saw a Direwolf do some weird stuff, then he says he's brand new... in a Direwolf! IMHO a poor choice for a new player) or rude teams that won't work together, complain, etc. to an awesome team that you'll have trouble keeping up with to get in on the action. Also, it seems that noonish on weekdays is when a lot of newer players drop. WHEN you play is CTQ. Getting out of T5 makes a big difference too.

Don't focus on damage or kills. Focus on learning the maps inside-out and positioning/cover. The other stuff follows. If you get a map + mode combo that you don't like, don't sweat it that much. Focus on the combos you like (check out your map and game mode stats page, your strength might not be where you think). Grim Plexus + Domination? Probably going to be a baaaaad match It's not you.

Check out the Tactics 101 comics at http://steamcommunit...s/?id=573089143

Lights can be liberating if you're tired of your big boys being left behind and swarmed. 1 salvo into someone not paying attention and running is a perfectly acceptable strategy. High damage does not necessarily mean winning - the overall dynamic of the match is much more important than individual damage output. Lights can really help the team out, you're fast enough to run in to add your firepower to a stand-off or push, and then take off to get caps, harass, etc. On Skirmish in a light I often glue myself to the assaults and guard them from harassers. Low damage, high win.

Don't listen to those players berating you - and take note of their names and check em out on the Leaderboards - often they aren't great players themselves, or are just way too bitter to be taken seriously. It's hard, I had a guy berating my Warhawk and it bothered me for a while.

Adjustable DPI sensitivity on your mouse is a MUST. Go way down. It should be low enough that using it in the in-game menus is painful.

Apologies if this is stating the obvious. I don't know if any of this rambling will help you, but I hope it does.

[Zenthious]

Asym, on 11 July 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

I never have had a PUG match in the new HBR over 400...
...But, no matter what I can do, 900 damage in a HBR is never going to happen.

Hellbringer is one of my favorites. What's your build? Also, what would you consider to be your weapon of choice?

Asym, on 11 July 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

The thread is about how to keep the new pilot's from leaving? Remember, many of us bought mech packs BEFORE we tried the game.........

Yeah, I can see that. The tiering system should be helping that, but I also know for a fact that people down tier on purpose for easier fodder. It may be that we need to add a fixed pilot level system that doesn't allow you to "de-level". They should probably set up cadet pilots vs bots games to introduce new pilots to the game modes, and hand out some healthy cbill rewards. There are good mechs to be had for cbills only. Adding the academy stuff was a good start, but maybe some bot or npc modes would help prepare people for the queues.

[Tarl Cabot]

From another thread. His issue is when a mechpack is purchased it is not a fully functional, skilled out mech. He considers them degraded.

Asym, on 09 July 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:

Greetings!

I am a 5 month old MWO warrior. I wasn't here at the beginning.

My thoughts go a different way: If I purchase a mech pack or a single mech, why am I purchasing a degraded vehicle?

Why am I "forced" to endure the "nerfing" or the PGI controlled degrading of basic, as purchased, capabilities?

So, they force us to buy other equipment to remain relevent? Is that how the entire Mechwarrior series was created in the first place? No.... What you operated in the earlier games were first class systems and you paid to operate them.

So, it's a great game, a game I love because it is HERE; that doesn't mean it is what it should be....

We're chasing thousands away to see a "profit"; instead of removing all of the skill tree barriers and giving us back the fully mastered mechs, at their full capabilities and then, letting us, in a very danherous and deadly world, see who can crow loudest without our hands being tied.....

"M" does not equal "P" - which means: Marginal does not equal Pass....

Just my opinion.