55 replies to this topic

[Tlords]

I have this dream of an Atlas being nigh un-killable. The master of the push. Blasted apart and still moving.

When PGI broke the board game rules of engines sizes being locked in, this allowed us to tweak our non-omni mechs to go faster or slower to further optimize our mechs. This set a precedence, that the board rules are not set in stone. So, what the here is my idea...

With the new skill tree, we can add structure to our mechs. This new structure should also give the option to add more armor, consistent with the rule of double the armor for the value of the internal structure. Yes, that's right.... add additional armor beyond the current max level. With an Atlas now having up to 25% more structure, this new structure should support being able to add 25% more armor..

With the current skill tree, the Atlas center torso would have 222 points of armor. The side torsos 166.

That's a terrifying site and something I'd love to see in this game. I'd be glad to swap 4 tons of engine size to achieve it.

Edited by Tlords, 09 July 2017 - 04:29 PM.

[Pur]

Tlords, on 09 July 2017 - 04:23 PM, said:

I have this dream of an Atlas being nigh un-killable.

[Khobai]

Quote

This new structure should also give the option to add more armor, consistent with the rule of double the armor for the value of the internal structure.

I dont think we need more armor.

I do think all mechs could use about 20%-30% more internal structure though. If for no other reason than to make critical hits matter more.

Critical hits just dont matter at all because entire hit locations get destroyed way faster than the equipment inside them gets critted.

One possibility could be for standard structure to give a +20%-30% structure bonus.

Then there would be a reason to use standard structure over endo structure. Which would also make ferro fibrous way more useful.

Edited by Khobai, 09 July 2017 - 04:41 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

OP, you are aware that Internal Structure, as well as Armor, is double that of stock TT settings?

An Atlas is only as good as the team it is dropping with. If an Atlas pushes by itself, it would not matter how many points of armor or structure it has, it will die as quickly.

[justcallme A S H]

The crackpot ideas continue

[El Bandito]

Currently Atlas is still one of the best Assaults to lead a push. I see no need to change its durability. I just wish all Atlas variants had BIG firepower, not just the AS7-S.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 July 2017 - 06:43 PM.

[Tlords]

justcallme A S H, on 09 July 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

The crackpot ideas continue

I know its a crackpot idea. That's why I love it so much...

Now I am curious what you believe could be done to 2nd tier assaults to make them more competitive.

For example the Marauder IIC outclasses almost all other assault. The Atlas pales in comparison as does the Awesome, and heck the Direwolf is falling behind it.

What are your thoughts on improving them?

[Adette]

Tlords, on 09 July 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

I know its a crackpot idea. That's why I love it so much...

Now I am curious what you believe could be done to 2nd tier assaults to make them more competitive.

For example the Marauder IIC outclasses almost all other assault. The Atlas pales in comparison as does the Awesome, and heck the Direwolf is falling behind it.

What are your thoughts on improving them?

Give them all much higher baseline agility, accel/decel.

[Snowbluff]

New tech might help

[Tlords]

Tarl Cabot, on 09 July 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

OP, you are aware that Internal Structure, as well as Armor, is double that of stock TT settings?

Yes, and in table randomness prevented you from dumping all your firepower into one location, with near pinpoint aim. The randomness made shots just as likely to hit your legs as your side torso. In the tabletop armor on an Direwolf and Atlas was much more valuable than armor on a 75 tonner.

Now lets look at MWO, the difference in armor and internal structure between a Direwolf and a Timberwolf is 44 pts of combine armor and internal structure. Medium mechs can do that much damage in an alpha strike. Convert that back to tabletop and that's 22 pts of damage. Much harder to dump 22 points of damage consistently into the center torso in the tabletop game.

Armor meant more there, than it does in MWO. Here speed rules. My hope is to give mechs that are slower as much durability as faster mechs, with less armor. Tabletop did this, my hope is MWO can as well.

[Kiiyor]

Khobai, on 09 July 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

I dont think we need more armor.

I do think all mechs could use about 20%-30% more internal structure though. If for no other reason than to make critical hits matter more.

I think for crits to matter, they need to be more nuanced.

Right now, an item is either fine, or dead. Perhaps if crits had more tangible effects tied to weapon degradation, they would feel more meaningful.

i.e. a ballistic weapon could lose accuracy, or have increased reload time, or lower range as they became more damaged. Energy weapons could produce heat spikes or have duration increases as they lose health. Missiles could lose launcher slots, or even have missiles prematurely detonate before they get to their target.

I've always loved the way the lore and novels describe damage; they really nail the feeling of piloting a venerable walking tank that tenaciously resists destruction as systems die around the pilot. MWO has made strides to capture that with structure quirks and the survival tree, but it still feels a little too arcadey to me.

[Tlords]

Adette Vickers, on 09 July 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

Give them all much higher baseline agility, accel/decel.

That makes sense for the Atlas, who has alot of armor already. What would you do for the Awesome and Direwolf? Mechs that have either crap hitboxes, low sitting weapons, and/or crap speed. How do you help them?

[RestosIII]

All the Atlas needs to make it properly scary is to re-add the glowing eyes. There, perfect killing machine for the IS again.

[justcallme A S H]

Tlords, on 09 July 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

I know its a crackpot idea. That's why I love it so much...

Now I am curious what you believe could be done to 2nd tier assaults to make them more competitive.

For example the Marauder IIC outclasses almost all other assault. The Atlas pales in comparison as does the Awesome, and heck the Direwolf is falling behind it.

What are your thoughts on improving them?

If you can pilot an Atlas, get it into position - Nothing beats it, nothing. The Scorch can put up a fight but one proper Atlas volley and you've almost neutered it and the Scorch torso is easy picking. Even a Spirit Bear won't in a brawl (it does come close).

The problem with all the "lower tier" assaults is the same as any other weight class. PGI's self-made power creep. Higher Torso/Arm mounts, more hardpoints etc with each mech that does come out.

The only way to "fix" old mechs is to do what PGI have also stated they will not do - offensive quirks. Or give them more armour/structure to survive longer.

[justcallme A S H]

El Bandito, on 09 July 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

Currently Atlas is still one of the best Assaults to lead a push. I see no need to change its durability. I just wish all Atlas variants had BIG firepower, not just the AS7-S.

Wait till LFE. One of the only mechs it'll make the big difference on as the AS7-S cannot fit it without losing SRM.

This will make the Atlas-D faster with something bigger than a STD350/STD355, that will be more formidable as a faster moving 100T battletank is gonna be dangerous. It's firepower will still be a "tad" less but closing distance faster IMO right now, is more valuable.

[El Bandito]

justcallme A S H, on 09 July 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

Wait till LFE. One of the only mechs it'll make the big difference on as the AS7-S cannot fit it without losing SRM.

This will make the Atlas-D faster with something bigger than a STD350/STD355, that will be more formidable as a faster moving 100T battletank is gonna be dangerous. It's firepower will still be a "tad" less but closing distance faster IMO right now, is more valuable.

I am aware of the LFE, but moving up from 350-355 to 360 is nothing in terms of speed. You are talking about 1-2 kph difference at most. Aside from Boar's Head, all Atlases are capped at 360 max.

Not to mention, many Atlas variants have less than good hardpoint placements. Atlas-D, Atlas-K, Atlas-RS--those are basically obsolete. One could pin their hopes on UAC20+MRMs, but that will all depend on the weapon balance, not the mech itself.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 July 2017 - 07:48 PM.

[Tlords]

El Bandito, on 09 July 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

I am aware of the LFE, but moving up from 350-355 to 360 is nothing in terms of speed. You are talking about 1-2 kph difference at most. Aside from Boar's Head, all Atlases are capped at 360 max.

Not to mention, many Atlas variants have less than good hardpoint placements. Atlas-D, Atlas-K, Atlas-RS--those are basically obsolete.

The difference between a 100 ton mech with a 350 and a 400 engine is 9 kph... not that drastic of a change. I think the D, K, and RS... need something to make them stand out more - my stance is let me put more armor on them. Make them tougher. From a lore perspective, we could say... they pack less weapons, because they were meant to carry a lot more armor..

[Nightbird]

The only thing all assaults need is proper size with respect to tonnage. Do a mental exercise, how many 20ton locusts can you fit into an Atlas? 5? Ha! That's not enough for the legs. Try 15-20 locusts, that means the Atlas is 400 tons in terms of being easy to hit and having components focused, and 100 tons in terms of armor. This is why all the assaults are made of paper, inability to spread damage due to being blown up like balloons.

[Khobai]

Quote

One could pin their hopes on UAC20+MRMs, but that will all depend on the weapon balance, not the mech itself.

That builds kindve ruined because MRMs track reticle now. So you cant torso twist without throwing off your MRMs.

If theyre going to make MRMs track reticle they need to have an on/off toggle for it

I mean I like the idea of being able to steer my MRMs when I dont need to torso twist. But you need to be able to turn that feature off when you have to immediately torso twist.

Quote

I am aware of the LFE, but moving up from 350-355 to 360 is nothing in terms of speed.

I think LFE350 is the best option. Because you get the extra internal heatsink. And the extra tonnage to go from 350->360 is better spent on weapons.

Quote

The only thing all assaults need is proper size with respect to tonnage

That would be nice. Theres no way an atlas is only 3 times bigger than a jenner. Its at least 4 if not 5 times bigger than a jenner. But if they rescaled the atlas like that theyd also have to rescale most heavies and assaults.

Edited by Khobai, 09 July 2017 - 08:00 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Most Atlas will need LFE360 cause not many are speed tweaking. My 7S actually has lower than a STD350 (not telling how low lol), so it's a clunk box. Or UAC20 LFE345/LFE350 as you said, will also go niiice.

Try the Atlas-D like THIS. 800dmg no problem in FP while tanking like a madman. It's slightly less DPS than a AS7-S, but coolshot sorts that out and skipping the MPL 3rd burn you're heat positive. STD345 if you want full armours.

I take that to FP over a 7S ATM to be honest. Skill Tree armour buff on quirks makes it ridiculous. Max mobility, twist like a boss

Tlords, on 09 July 2017 - 07:50 PM, said:

The difference between a 100 ton mech with a 350 and a 400 engine is 9 kph... not that drastic of a change. I think the D, K, and RS... need something to make them stand out more - my stance is let me put more armor on them. Make them tougher. From a lore perspective, we could say... they pack less weapons, because they were meant to carry a lot more armor..

Nah the Atlas is capped as Bancdito said @ 360, which given I'm usually STD340-345, is a nice little boost. It's not much but when closing distance over a bigger map, it helps.

Atlas D already has the most INSANE armour quirks in the game. It's got almost ~180pts on the CT if you skill tree correctly. Torso's well over 100... Arms are around 80pts.

Just gotta know how to Skill Tree (you know, making it easier for newer users...)

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 July 2017 - 07:58 PM.