43 replies to this topic

[Antares102]

Now that IS also has a full set of LBX weapons can we PLEASE buff LBX by increasing their pellet damage?
My (new) proposal would be 20% damage increase for clan and 40% damage increase for IS (50% for IS LB-20X). We can argue about the amount of damage increase obviously.
At the same time PGI could increase its spread to make LBX better at close range but worse at long range.

My point is that PGI has played around with damage values all the time to make weapons viable why not do the same thing with LBX? After all IS SRM also have 2.15 damage per missile.

This thread is a follow on to:
https://mwomercs.com...-pellet-damage/
where many people agreed that the easiest way to make LBX viable is to increase their damage.

Last time this thread was concluded more or less with "waiting for energy draw which will improve LBX" but enegery draw was eventually dumped.
This means LBX still suck (especially ALL newly introduced IS versions in particular the IS LB20-X) and they still need a buff.

Another good idea:
https://mwomercs.com...gh-armor-crits/
Allow LBX to penetrate armour.

Edited by Antares102, 11 July 2017 - 01:34 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Sounds fine to me, I still wouldn't use them. After using them over and over even 2lbx10 are not as good as 1 normal ac10. With uac10 coming out you might as well take them out of the game.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 July 2017 - 03:41 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Yep.

As a simplistic example.. who would use the shotgun in Doom if it didnt do more damage in a point blank shot than other weapons which also worked just as well at range?

LBX weapons as implemented in MWO are shotguns. Shotguns that dont do more damage than precision weapons are useless, especially when they are actually harder to mount.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I will throw in my support (of course). People have been asking for this since the LB-ACs were first added. My long-standing suggestion has been to start at 1.2 per pellet and iterate from there.

[Coolant]

+1 for increasing LBX (10) damage

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

Antares102, on 11 July 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

At the same time increase its spread so that its acting like a real shotgun, good at close range and really bad at longer range.

Increase the spread? I think the spread is fine.

A real shotgun, doesn't spread insanely for its use, I can take a 12 gauge with 00 buck, and have the spread to 9 inches around after about 20-25m.

Now with my LBX, if I fire at a target 500m away, (Scale of mechs involved) I pelt the enemy all over, and the enemy is the size of a building.

I think the spread is just fine for the LBX. Scale considering.

[Khobai]

Quote

At the same time increase its spread so that its acting like a real shotgun, good at close range and really bad at longer range.

cluster munitions shouldnt even get less accurate at longer ranges.

LBX should fire in a cylinder pattern rather than a cone. so the spread stays consistent at all ranges.

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

cluster munitions shouldnt even get less accurate at longer ranges.

LBX should fire in a cylinder pattern rather than a cone. so the spread stays consistent at all ranges.

Well, based on ballistics, there would be a little bit of a spread since they come from the same point of origin. I would argue that the LBX round is a shell, rather than 10 individual pellets shoved neatly and perfectly down into the weapon system.
When they are given ignition, the explosion would force them to spread slightly... Physics and motion would keep them on a spread pattern.

But I see no need to miss half your pellets at 300m

Edited by BaconTWOfourACTUAL, 11 July 2017 - 11:21 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Well, based on ballistics, there would be a little bit of a spread since they come from the same point of origin.

well in battletech the LBX does the same damage at long range that it does at short range.

because it fires a canister with a shaped charge and a bunch of flachettes basically. and it explodes just before it hits the target. so the spread is always the same regardless of range.

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

well in battletech the LBX does the same damage at long range that it does at short range.

because it fires a canister with a shaped charge and a bunch of flachettes basically. and it explodes just before it hits the target. so the spread is always the same regardless of range.

Very well... that would do it.

[Antares102]

BaconTWOfourACTUAL, on 11 July 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

Increase the spread? I think the spread is fine.

A real shotgun, doesn't spread insanely for its use, I can take a 12 gauge with 00 buck, and have the spread to 9 inches around after about 20-25m.

Now with my LBX, if I fire at a target 500m away, (Scale of mechs involved) I pelt the enemy all over, and the enemy is the size of a building.

I think the spread is just fine for the LBX. Scale considering.

Well it was just an idea that I also mentioned last time to compensate for the damage increase.
Probably the sentence should be more subjunctive.

[Reno Blade]

hmmm... how about shotgun like damage drop off?

maybe dealing 2x damage on optimum range, but moving optimum range to something like 1/4 or 1/2 of the current optimum range or to point blank (0m).

e.g.
LBX10
currently:
540m optimum (10x 1dmg) and 1,620m max (0dmg) where the middle is 810m.

let's try to get 10 dmg at 540m and do more close range:
new 2x dmg:
0m optimum with double dmg (10x 2dmg) and 1080m maxium, where the middle is 540m with 10 dmg.
20dmg(0m) - 15dmg(270m) - 10dmg(540m) - 5.0dmg(810m) - 0.0dmg(1080m)

and let's see how it would look with 1.5x dmg instead of 2x dmg at point blank
new 1.5x dmg:
0m optimum with 1.5x dmg (10x 1.5dmg) and 1620m maxium, where the middle is 810m with 7.5dmg.
15dmg(0m) - 12.5dmg(270m) - 10dmg(540m) - 7.5dmg(810m) - 5.0dmg(1080m) - 2.5dmg(1350m) - 0.0dmg(1620m)

the 1.5 multiplier would fit perfectly with the maximum range we currently have.

cLBX20

Spoiler

currently:
360m optimum (20x 1dmg) and 720m max (0dmg) where the middle is 540m (where also the LBX10 optimum range ends, so same 10 dmg as LBX10).

let's try to get 20 dmg at 360m and do more close range:
new 2x dmg:
0m optimum with double dmg (20x 2dmg) and 720m maxium, where the middle is 360m with 20 dmg.
40dmg(0m) - 30dmg(180m) - 20dmg(360m) - 10dmg(540m) - 0.0dmg(720m)

and let's see how it would look with 1.5x dmg instead of 2x dmg at point blank
new 1.5x dmg:
0m optimum with 1.5x dmg (20x 1.5dmg) and 1080m maxium, where the middle is 810m with 15dmg.
30dmg(0m) - 25dmg(180m) - 20dmg(360) - 15dmg(540m) - 10dmg(720m)- 5dmg(900m) - 0.0dmg(1080m)

This would increase maximum range of cLBX20 to deal more dmg at 540m than the LBX10 up until around 900m.

Edited by Reno Blade, 11 July 2017 - 12:51 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Antares102, on 11 July 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

Well it was just an idea that I also mentioned last time to compensate for the damage increase.
Probably the sentence should be more subjunctive.

The issue with trying to compensate for the damage increase is that it is looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. There is no need to compensate, since increasing damage/pellet is a fix. A fix does not need a compensatory nerf (just see PGI's old MG nerf when they fixed a bug with how they applied their damage).

The easiest solution to implement, and the easiest to balance long-term, is simply to set the damage/pellet to 1.2 or 1.5 or some other fixed starting value and iterate around it based on performance metrics. Maybe 1.5 for IS and 1.2 for Clan? Whatever value(s) are chosen, they'd be expected to change over the next several patch cycles until satisfactory performance is achieved.

[Antares102]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 11 July 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

The issue with trying to compensate for the damage increase is that it is looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. There is no need to compensate, since increasing damage/pellet is a fix. A fix does not need a compensatory nerf (just see PGI's old MG nerf when they fixed a bug with how they applied their damage).

Sure in principle I totally agree.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Reno Blade, on 11 July 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

hmmm... how about shotgun like damage drop off?

maybe dealing 2x damage on optimum range, but moving optimum range to something like 1/4 or 1/2 of the current optimum range or to point blank (0m).

e.g.
LBX10
currently:
540m optimum (10x 1dmg) and 1,620m max (0dmg) where the middle is 810m.

let's try to get 10 dmg at 540m and do more close range:
new 2x dmg:
0m optimum with double dmg (10x 2dmg) and 1080m maxium, where the middle is 540m with 10 dmg.
20dmg(0m) - 15dmg(270m) - 10dmg(540m) - 5.0dmg(810m) - 0.0dmg(1080m)

and let's see how it would look with 1.5x dmg instead of 2x dmg at point blank
new 1.5x dmg:
0m optimum with 1.5x dmg (10x 1.5dmg) and 1620m maxium, where the middle is 810m with 7.5dmg.
15dmg(0m) - 12.5dmg(270m) - 10dmg(540m) - 7.5dmg(810m) - 5.0dmg(1080m) - 2.5dmg(1350m) - 0.0dmg(1620m)

the 1.5 multiplier would fit perfectly with the maximum range we currently have.

cLBX20

Spoiler

currently:
360m optimum (20x 1dmg) and 720m max (0dmg) where the middle is 540m (where also the LBX10 optimum range ends, so same 10 dmg as LBX10).

let's try to get 20 dmg at 360m and do more close range:
new 2x dmg:
0m optimum with double dmg (20x 2dmg) and 720m maxium, where the middle is 360m with 20 dmg.
40dmg(0m) - 30dmg(180m) - 20dmg(360m) - 10dmg(540m) - 0.0dmg(720m)

and let's see how it would look with 1.5x dmg instead of 2x dmg at point blank
new 1.5x dmg:
0m optimum with 1.5x dmg (20x 1.5dmg) and 1080m maxium, where the middle is 810m with 15dmg.
30dmg(0m) - 25dmg(180m) - 20dmg(360) - 15dmg(540m) - 10dmg(720m)- 5dmg(900m) - 0.0dmg(1080m)

This would increase maximum range of cLBX20 to deal more dmg at 540m than the LBX10 up until around 900m.

I like this idea the most, since it gives LBX a real, honest niche, but the numbers would have to be tested heavily.

This change would further differentiate LBX from other ballistics (rather than just taking LB10X for fitting related reasons). Even at 1.5x damage at point blank, quad LBX Mauler is going to be hitting close to 30dps so LB10X would need to be rebalanced around it- normalizing heat between LB10X and AC10 would make the most sense.

LB2/5/20 could definitely use an outright buff like this so long as they're paying a fitting tax over AC2/5/20 that isn't shared by LB10X.

[Athom83]

Just boost the damage to internals. Like a hard +20% damage when hitting structure.

[Mcgral18]

#PGIplz

[Yellonet]

Yep, LB-X needs a good buff to make it a viable choice.

IMO, if the the base damage of each pellet were increased to say 1.5 it would likely make the LB-X too good compared to regular AC's as it would have many advantages, velocity, damage and crit ability.

The change that I would vote for would be to keep the damage the same but decrease the spread so that you can get most pellets in a single hitbox at 300 meters or so and make it significantly better to crit exposed components.
You should in fact be able to count with a few pellets critting every time you shoot (40-50% crit chance for each pellet) at a hitbox without armour so that destroying exposed components would be very quick work with these weapons.

[Brain Cancer]

Doesn't even need to boost damage to internals. Heck, get rid of structure damage from crits entirely.

And then up the equipment damage from an LB pellet to 5, keeping it's structure damage at 1. Voila, a pellet shower across unarmored components will rapidly cripple whatever's in the component, but not just simply shred the structure like a machine gun.

Then get to properly modeling actuator, gyro, and engine damage.

[Andi Nagasia]

i would say increase LBX Damage to 1.5Damage/Pellot,
(LBX2=3Damage)(LBX5=7.5Damage)(LBX10=15Damage)(LBX20=30Damage)
then increase their Spread by 25%, this would allow them to act better as Shotguns,
at range they spread all over but the closer you get the harder they hit,

(would also Like to see IS-LRMs & MRMs have 1.2Damage Per Missile)