60 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

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Actually, incorrect. The listed speed is the horizontal velocity, not the speed of the missiles. That takes into account the whole arc. The LRM's actual speed is much higher, it just is not traveling directly at the target. Its "true" speed is somewhat more akin to SSRMs.

Horizontal velocity is how long it takes to travel the X meters to target.

That's what matters, although flattening the arc would semi-improve time to target at the cost of even worse indirect fire.

[HIGH LORD KIT FAWKS THE WATCHFUL]

A slow subsonic missile with any kind of IR, radar, or other forms of tracking might move on average of 800 bloody miles per hour.

Just tossing out that in this day and age, subsonic missiles aren't even really considered a major threat unless they're cruise missiles designed for engagements in another continent...

If an erll is used at its max optimal range, we consider that an acceptable poke/snipe.

If an ERPPC is used at max optimal and is used right we call that a good poke/snipe.

If an AC2 is used with not very hard to aim care, at max optimal, we call that a good harassment/suppress/poke

We somehow decry LRMs for their use at ranges they should be good at, and expect them to move slow. Because everyone here is indoctrinated to think missiles move slow.

There are missiles used in the world that travel above the speed of sound, we call them supersonic.

There are missiles used in the world that travel *so fast* we gave them the name "Hypersonic" as in they travel at such immense speed that we gave up trying to apply the same name to it because it wasn't worthy.

Missiles are an have been the primary means of bringing "F*** you up" to your enemy for a very, very long time. It's only here, where people seem to think we need to remove them from existence like we'd somehow ignore one of the greatest weapon development and delivery platforms in history.

edit- BY NO MEANS DOES THIS MEAN WE NEED TO MAKE THEM COMPARIBLE TO THEIR REAL LIFE BROTHERS.

This is simply a statement arguing that perhaps certain considerations should be made before slamming an argument over a change in flightpath/velocity.

Edited by THE GOD KING URBIE LORD OF MECHS, 11 July 2017 - 02:15 PM.

[Athom83]

Brain Cancer, on 11 July 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Horizontal velocity is how long it takes to travel the X meters to target.

That's what matters, although flattening the arc would semi-improve time to target at the cost of even worse indirect fire.

Correct, velocity is the derivative of speed ie speed over distance. I'd like confirmation from the devs on whether the "velocity" nodes affect velocity or speed for arcing weapons. I'll work on some match in a bit to determine which would be better.

[prox]

IS IT MONDAY ALREADY?

[Brain Cancer]

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Correct, velocity is the derivative of speed ie speed over distance. I'd like confirmation from the devs on whether the "velocity" nodes affect velocity or speed for arcing weapons. I'll work on some match in a bit to determine which would be better.

I'd be interested in seeing those results. For me, it's time-to-target that matters: Every LRM launch save dumbfire (good luck on hitting effectively at range with no Artemis boost, woo!) gives people a warning and time to utterly evade, something no other weapon does in MWO. Time to target needs to come down, and that means velocity.

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IS IT MONDAY ALREADY?

Back to OutreachHPG with you, O Redditor.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 11 July 2017 - 02:24 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Athom83, on 11 July 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

It was overperforming in context to the other LRMs. This was done to bring it in line so it isn't always a nobrainer to take 4 LRM5s instead of a LRM20.

There was a disparity... Nerfing the LRM5 was not the answer since LRMs are by far the weakest weapons, then the proper response was to Buff the rest to bring them in line with the LRM5.

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This was because a lot of that could be made up by the skill tree. Also, a lot of IS mechs still have missile quirks.

This actually made sense in your mind to the point that you felt it was ok to announce to the rest of the world as viable reasoning??? That is scary but moving past that aspect of it... Mechs WITH Quirks to try to bring up their Power Level to compete against Mechs WITHOUT Quirks, both get access to the same Skill Maze. So... HOW THE **** DOES THE SKILL MAZE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ALREADY PRE-EXISTING IMBALANCE???????????? Try to say things out loud in private and listen to them before you say or type them around people in the future.

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Before it had no use, as it directly gimped your mech for having it. And when you fill out the tree, those 1-2 nodes are really important and could be used for something else.

This was a problem of the previous Module system that just needed to be tweaked where instead of pretending that all Modules were equal, establish different kinds/levels so that more Modules could be brought but only 1 Radar Derp or Seismic thereby opening access to the never used Modules. But that ship has sailed with the Skill Maze, and actually only reinforces my point not actually refutes it.

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Same as above. It was there before, but no one used it as it directly effected you negatively in comparison to other options.

Same as above. It not being used was part of the factor of "balance" but now it IS being used which means it needs to actually be factored in.

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They were always there, barely anyone used them. With an update that boosted LRMs easily (target retention, faster lock on, -% missile spread, ect), people started seeing those 2-3 AMS mechs a little more desirable.

None of what you just listed as being changed is actually factual, LRMs have WORSE Target Retention (which is a Nerf I forgot to add) since 100% Radar Deprivation is 100% now instead of 100% of the Advanced Target Decay that it used to be, so it is Instantaneous instead of just 2 modules cancelling each other out. Lock-On Times are unchanged, -5% Missile Spread works out to centimeters in reality, etc. having no idea what this is but I assume more made up fiction from your lack of knowledge about game mechanics.

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LRMs are currently the weakest and the strongest weapon at the same time. What you are failing to realize/acknowledge is that LRMs already got buffed. Now, you can get velocity, range, spread, cooldown, heat gen, and ammo skills to boost your lurms. And they aren't locked to one version of them at a time like before.

Quirks got stripped out/Nerfed of all the IS mechs that could then have partial recovery of them in the Skill Maze while non-quirked Mechs just got access to things they never had already because they were the top of the power level. Again this comes back to you needing to say things out loud in private, so you can hear how ridiculous they are before saying/typing them in public.

Edited by KekistanWillRiseAgain, 11 July 2017 - 02:40 PM.

[Athom83]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

There was a disparity... Nerfing the LRM5 was not the answer since LRMs are by far the weakest weapons, then the proper response was to Buff the rest to bring them in line with the LRM5.

No, the weakest weapon is the AC/2. You need to boat them with a King Crab or Mauler (Jagermech would work with 4 when mass quirked) to make them worth it. I regularly use the 2 AC/2 Blackjack and I'm still saying that. While the other LRMs may be underwhelming, the LRM-5 specifically was OVERperforming for what it was (especially with Artemis).

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

This actually made sense in your mind to the point that you felt it was ok to announce to the rest of the world as viable reasoning??? That is scary but moving past that aspect of it... Mechs WITH Quirks to try to bring up their Power Level to compete against Mechs WITHOUT Quirks, both get access to the same Skill Maze. So... HOW THE **** DOES THE SKILL MAZE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ALREADY PRE-EXISTING IMBALANCE????????????

Yes. In fact, it makes enough sense for the majority of people who play the game. And the thing is, the skill tree brings up the power enough of quite a few mechs that some existing quirks were either no longer needed or was now making it overperform. But you seem to be sticking to this so I'll just say this. I was specifically talking about the missile/LRM quirks, not the quirk system as a whole. Choices you can now make in the skill tree made those +10% missile velocity, -5% missile spread, etc quirks unnecessary.

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

This was a problem of the previous Module system that just needed to be tweaked where instead of pretending that all Modules were equal, establish different kinds/levels so that more Modules could be brought but only 1 Radar Derp or Seismic thereby opening access to the never used Modules. But that ship has sailed with the Skill Maze, and actually only reinforces my point not actually refutes it.

Even with that "tweak", the vast majority would still be Radar Derp or Seismic. And no, the tree does not reinforce your point no matter how much you think it does.

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Same as above. It not being used was part of the factor of "balance" but now it IS being used which means it needs to actually be factored in.

Before it was one or the other, now you can have a little of both. Just because people are discovering they now have other ways to defend themselves from something they don't enjoy facing is not a firm basis for getting said thing buffed.

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

None of what you just listed as being changed is actually factual, LRMs have WORSE Target Retention (which is a Nerf I forgot to add) since 100% Radar Deprivation is 100% now instead of 100% of the Advanced Target Decay that it used to be, so it is Instantaneous instead of just 2 modules cancelling each other out. Lock-On Times are unchanged, -5% Missile Spread works out to centimeters in reality, etc.

However, not all mechs are running around with 100% radar derp anymore. That's the point. If you're running with all the Target Decay nodes and the enemy has -60% Radar Derp (what a "sane" tree balance gives max (-40% at a min)), then your bonus to having them spotted is applied, then reduced by 60%.

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

having no idea what this is but I assume more made up fiction from your lack of knowledge about game mechanics.

Says the guy saying LRMs need a major buff.

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Quirks got stripped out/Nerfed of all the IS mechs that could then have partial recovery of them in the Skill Maze while non-quirked Mechs just got access to things they never had already because they were the top of the power level.

You completely missed what I said there. You still are refusing to acknowledge what I said. Yes, some mechs lost a +10% missile velocity, +5% missile cooldown quirk here and there. However, they now gained the ability to get +15% range, -12% cooldown, -10% heat, +10% velocity, 36 more missiles per ton, +15% crit damage, AND -5% spread along with getting full target decay. Even with that, there are mechs that retained missile quirks. Go to the Smurfy page, hit CTRL + F, then type in "missile". See how many there are (answer; 262 missile quirks between the mechs/pods).

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Try to say things out loud in private and listen to them before you say or type them around people in the future.
Again this comes back to you needing to say things out loud in private, so you can hear how ridiculous they are before saying/typing them in public.

Don't need to. I'm perfectly capable of understanding written word. I typed what I meant and I stand by it.

Also, please quote where I say "LRMs do not need a buff" in this thread. Go ahead, try. While I'm not of the opinion they need to be nerfed nor buffed, they just need a change that makes them more useful in their intended purpose.

[FreeFragUK]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

So there has been a steady stream of direct LRM Nerfs and indirect LRM Nerfs stacking up in the past few months. These include...

1. LRM 5 Spread increased
2. Lots of Missile Quirks removed from IS mechs
3. AMS Overload becoming so easy and prevalent to get
4. AMS being Buffed with longer Range & higher Damage (to be more useful against SRM/SSRM)
5. Even more 3 AMS Clan mechs & 2 AMS IS mechs

LRMs need to be given a Velocity Buff just to counteract the AMS Buff that really applies more to LRM than SRM/SSRM. I have seen more AMS in the past week then in the previous 3 years combined. LRMs are already one of the weakest Weapon Systems in the game among the reasons are the counters against them, the counters keep getting Buffed to the point that the population is actually USING them for the first time. Counters that are being Buffed specifically stated against other Missile Systems but have even more effect upon LRMs, with the incoming MRMs & ATMs then LRMs need some kind of Buff to even stay as relevant as they currently are at the bottom of the pile.

Have you considered applying skills to your LRM's?

Alternatively have you considered using them from a second line position as suggested earlier in the thread... this would make you somewhat less of a liability to your team (in theory anyway).

edit: Also I'm not entirely sure the OP is serious... I can't tell anymore due to how often I see threads like this.

Edited by FreeFragUK, 11 July 2017 - 04:28 PM.

[Yellonet]

Brain Cancer, on 11 July 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Because if you can't point and click to hit, it ain't worth spit, right?



Nah, that was Streaks and it sucked. Although if you took out the "INCOMING MISSILES", you'd probably indirectly increase hit rate as there'd be less time to react.

And what kind of pants-on-head statement is it that LRMs are a "support weapon"? A weapon that doesn't hit and kill as effectively as other weapons is just a "bad weapon", and needs help. Even if LRMs were actually as accurate as most weapons are- let's say even a 50% hit rate, considering right now part of every decent LRM salvo is an auto-miss - they'd still be scattering hits across the target and are incapable of magically focusing every point on one location like "real weapons" in MWO do. It'd be nice even being an accurate spread weapon, because inaccurate + spread is basically the two biggest curses an MWO weapon system can get, and the LRM gets both.



You did, and the prize was a prefrontal lobotomy?

Why is it so hard to understand...
This is a game, and as such a weapon that gives the player the ability to shoot homing missiles with no LOS should be bad compared to direct fire weapons. You're essentially sitting behind cover taking zero risk and you can still deal loads of damage. Yeah, such a weapon should NOT be as effective as other weapons.

[Radbane]

Being one who loves LRM's but who also spites the boating of them I'd say, yes .. buff LRM's with a velocity boost, but give them a severe boating penalty. Like .. let only 2 lock on at any times, pretty much as you can only fire two gauss at a time. You fire two, and then have to relock if you want to fire two more. OR a more harsh ghost heat.

LRM's are fine, really, it's those LRM60-80 boats that are just wrong

[Radbane]

Yellonet, on 11 July 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Yeah, such a weapon should NOT be as effective as other weapons.

But ... but ... they're not and will never be, even if slightly buffed? There's no Anti-Ballistic system, or anti-energy system. Neither is there a ECM that disrupts your direct fire capabilities, meaning rendering them totally useless. That also goes for certain gamemodes where they cannot in any way be used against objectives. Also ... tonnage vs pinpoint damage?

...You guys *nodge nodge* Really? =P

[Athom83]

Radbane, on 11 July 2017 - 05:04 PM, said:

There's no Anti-Ballistic system,

Speed

Radbane, on 11 July 2017 - 05:04 PM, said:

or anti-energy system.

Twisting

[Radbane]

Athom83, on 11 July 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

Speed

Twisting

Haha, and both are also used against LRM's....without any magic stuff. Duck and cover (speed) and twist your least damaged part towards the angle of the missiles. (Twisting)

You were saying?

[Void Angel]

LRMs need a buff - and a nerf, depending on a host of factors external to the weapon system. Player skill, map terrain, the presence of countermeasures, team composition of both sides... all these and more make LRMs a very problematic system to balance.

Really, LRMs don't need a buff or a nerf - they need a redesign.

[El Bandito]

LRMs are at their weakest state right now, there is no question about that. Just need to find a way to buff them without making them potato mashers.

[HIGH LORD KIT FAWKS THE WATCHFUL]

Step one: Remove Non-LOS locks for LRMs.

Step Two: Improve velocity by both decreasing arch of missile and increasing actual velocity.

Does this satisfy both parties?

Edited by THE GOD KING URBIE LORD OF MECHS, 11 July 2017 - 06:19 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

FreeFragUK, on 11 July 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

Have you considered applying skills to your LRM's?

Alternatively have you considered using them from a second line position as suggested earlier in the thread... this would make you somewhat less of a liability to your team (in theory anyway).

edit: Also I'm not entirely sure the OP is serious... I can't tell anymore due to how often I see threads like this.

I know how to use them properly, which of course is a rarity in the game I concede. But they have been Nerfed so badly in the past year... I used to get at least 1 +1500 Damage game a day of playing my AWS-8R whenever I was bored enough of Mastering mechs and playing it. Now it is rare to get one in 3-4 days of playing, what should be +1200 Damage games even 3 months ago after the AWS-8R was Nerfed from what it once was shooting myself dry are only 700-800 Damage games in comparison. There has been a huge Power Level drop off in LRM mechs to them being shuffled around in order of Best almost entirely based upon which got Nerfed the Least... like the HBK-4J used to be great and was the Best Medium LRMer but it was Nerfed until the TRB-7M is now better. So there is some element of Mechs that needed Quirks being stripped of them (by illogical reason given) but the counters to LRMs being Buffed is an even bigger Nerf within the whole context. So if AMS was Buffed EXPLICITLY to better be effective against SRM/SSRM than LRMs need to be given a corresponding Buff, otherwise it qualifies as ANOTHER LRM Nerf in practice. Velocity increase makes up for the extra range that AMS was buffed, that is the barest minimum that needs to be done.

Edited by KekistanWillRiseAgain, 11 July 2017 - 06:24 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

THE GOD KING URBIE LORD OF MECHS, on 11 July 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

Step one: Remove Non-LOS locks for LRMs.

Step Two: Improve velocity by both decreasing arch of missile and increasing actual velocity.

Does this satisfy both parties?

NO!!!!

Step 1: Make them WAY inferior LBXs
Step 2: Take away their ability to provide Indirect Fire (among other things that makes IS LRMs superior to Clan LRMs is the Higher Arch) even when hill humping getting their own locks with things like TAG/NARC & Increase actual Velocity

Translated that for you into practical application. Increase Velocity is the main point I was making to start with, everything else you mentioned is just more Nerfs.

[dario03]

LRMs don't need buffs, they need a rework of their mechanics. Streaks too.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

dario03, on 11 July 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

LRMs don't need buffs, they need a rework of their mechanics. Streaks too.

I need a million dollars & Kate Upton to be my wife.... now that we are done talking about fantasyland of sh1t that is NEVER going to happen, can we have a discussion about the practicalities of reality that are possible?