60 replies to this topic

[A Man In A Can]

Hmm. Considering the attitude gap between those that use and those that receive LRMs, their BT lore and RL cousins, and the plethora of counters, I'd say change their locking properties from semi-guided (needing to stare at an opponent to maintain in-flight guidance) to fire-and-forget center-of-mass (a la original Streak-style) homing, with minor tweaks to cooldown values, lock-on times, flight speeds and turning radii, and see what kind of holistic solution grows from that.

[dario03]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

I need a million dollars & Kate Upton to be my wife.... now that we are done talking about fantasyland of sh1t that is NEVER going to happen, can we have a discussion about the practicalities of reality that are possible?

Some said mech rescales would never happen, but it did. I don't see any reason to think a lrm rework isn't possible. And I think buffs are more likely to become a reality with it.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

dario03, on 11 July 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Some said mech rescales would never happen, but it did. I don't see any reason to think a lrm rework isn't possible. And I think buffs are more likely to become a reality with it.

Should never*

which was very true but PGI forced it upon us and nuked from orbit many barely viable Chassis

[SPencil]

What a great thread. Not a single mention of target decay though, so that's a bit of a blemish.

Brain Cancer, on 11 July 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

...if you fear LRMs now, you are a terrible, horrible, lousy player.

...never forget one's fear of LRMs either: forgetfulness leads to complacency, complacency leads to mistakes, and mistakes lead to some rude [INCOMING MISSILE] sessions

THE GOD KING URBIE LORD OF MECHS, on 11 July 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

Step one: Remove Non-LOS locks for LRMs.

Step Two: Improve velocity by both decreasing arch of missile and increasing actual velocity.

Does this satisfy both parties?

1) Doesn't really make sense though: I know my position, I know my teammates position and have some information about them; because of this I can say with certainty we are sharing data. My teammate locks an enemy, they know their distance and have a vector. My position, teammates position, enemy distance and vector, by these points combined I have a triangle, and an easy missile path with some easy math. Friendlies are already sharing data, but we would exclude such valuable tactical data because...balance? Even to suggest that a friendly would still have that shared lock but unable to acquire a missile lock without LOS is goofy because I already just gave the first step to solving the missile flight path with all that data available anyways; I'm confident the on-board cogitators computers should be able to do that


2) Wouldn't need to raise the velocity after lowering the trajectory, just by flattening it out the missiles will arrive quicker sooner, which is really what LRM support wants of their missiles. Even then they might (?) need an extra little boost in speed, but to be honest I'm more of the mind that AMS might need to be toned down just a shade.


As I recall, I think there are two different trajectories for whether the launcher has LOS or not: without LOS the missiles arc higher up to a point to clear the obstacle, whereas with LOS the missiles describe the tightest arc it's allowed. Kinda felt like this distinction might be important to the balance discussion, and I'm not dissatisfied with LRMs currently are. I remember when Artemis dropped, that was hilarious. Then I remember ECM making LRMs useless again, and that was also hilarious but for different reasons.

Good times; I love LRMs, can't ya tell

Edited by SPencil, 11 July 2017 - 08:16 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

SPencil, on 11 July 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

What a great thread. Not a single mention of target decay though, so that's a bit of a blemish.

I need to edit my OP cause I did bring it up about how Radar Deprivation got HUGE Buff by 100% Radar Derp being instanteous instead of just cancelling out Advanced Target Decay like it used to... I will go updated it now

[Brain Cancer]

THE GOD KING URBIE LORD OF MECHS, on 11 July 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

Step one: Remove Non-LOS locks for LRMs.

Step Two: Improve velocity by both decreasing arch of missile and increasing actual velocity.

Does this satisfy both parties?

No. You've just described what's needed for ATMs, not LRMs. Because that's what an ATM is. A direct-fire weapon that actually is designed to out-range LRMs. (They also desperately need added missile health, but that's another issue entirely.)

El Bandito, on 11 July 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

LRMs are at their weakest state right now, there is no question about that. Just need to find a way to buff them without making them potato mashers.

There will always be weapons that kill bad players. Being good at killing bad players should never, ever be part of the reason a weapon is considered balanced, because a bad player is inherently a useless point of balance. It'd be like balancing the AC/20 because it's good at killing lights that stand still on top of hills, or medium lasers because you're terrified of how good the Jenner is sitting behind your derpassault.

Now, if LRMs were reaping the potato fields even if every other player was mounting AMS and the ones that weren't packed ECM, then I'd be worried about their OPness. But they aren't. The reason LRMs kill newbies is because newbies ignore the soft and hard counters readily available in the game (frequently in ignorance), nor do they use them in any quantity- and yet, they complain profusely when after not using said counters, they die a lot. That the weapon is so poor most players with even moderate skill can get out of the rain even WITHOUT those tools is...well, why LRMs are in need of a buff, and "it kills newbies" shouldn't even be part of the reason to get in the way of said buff. AMS requires no skill to use and is effective in quantity. ECM requires no skill to use and is effective, period.

Three guys with AMS can basically ignore anything short of a 60+ LRM barrage, and if a team actually dealt with LRMs beyond "LOL", you'd get:



ECM is a "nuff said", given it's actually had it's nodes applied.

[SPencil]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

I need to edit my OP cause I did bring it up about how Radar Deprivation got HUGE Buff by 100% Radar Derp being instanteous instead of just cancelling out Advanced Target Decay like it used to... I will go updated it now

I'll be honest I was actually pointing out that target decay has gained much more worth in the wake of accessible velocity buffs to go along side it, but ubiquitous radar dep has been a pain so lets focus on that

Brain Cancer, on 11 July 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

The reason LRMs kill newbies is because newbies ignore the soft and hard counters readily available in the game...

with said radar dep gaining traction, LRM support's gonna be harder to play; it's not unplayable yet, except for river city and occasionally crimson. Mining collective and bog are 50/50 for LRMs and I feel and everything else is mostly okay to run a balanced LRM support build.

because god help whoever I find running LRMs in assaults

[Burke IV]

Look at this, beautiful and perfect... Now after the patch everybody armour has gone up, 2 medium lasers are barely worth their weight and LRM5s are no longer relevant. That mech turns into this abomination. The natural response to the recent changes are to try and increase your damage output, so perhaps you go up in weight... you get this, this, this and this. It seems that everybody is an LRM60 now, mostly volly fire only with the Night Gyr being the happy balance point i suspect. I also suspect the madcat II is going to fit right into this design philosophy.

Its only on paper builds, altho if i ever motivate myself the NG is the mech i will reach for to replace my huntsman. The role of an LRM mech is pretty much to stand out of sight now, volly fire is artillery, facetime LRMing seems to have gone from the game and this means manuverability is less important now aswell, another reason to push the LRM boat further up the weight class.


Edit: wait! wait, did i forget somebody

Edited by Burke IV, 11 July 2017 - 10:35 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Burke IV, on 11 July 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

Look at this, beautiful and perfect... Now after the patch everybody armour has gone up, 2 medium lasers are barely worth their weight and LRM5s are no longer relevant. That mech turns into this abomination. The natural response to the recent changes are to try and increase your damage output, so perhaps you go up in weight... you get this, this, this and this. It seems that everybody is an LRM60 now, mostly volly fire only with the Night Gyr being the happy balance point i suspect. I also suspect the madcat II is going to fit right into this design philosophy.

Its only on paper builds, altho if i ever motivate myself the NG is the mech i will reach for to replace my huntsman. The role of an LRM mech is pretty much to stand out of sight now, volly fire is artillery, facetime LRMing seems to have gone from the game and this means manuverability is less important now aswell, another reason to push the LRM boat further up the weight class.


Edit: wait! wait, did i forget somebody

Wow... all those Builds made me sad. First off they are Clan which is the ONLY place they are inferior to IS is LRMs, then they were all not that good of Chassis and the NTG was an abomination using the JK instead of the vastly superior D.

[Burke IV]

Well as i said only on paper builds, i didnt take any quirks into account but if you say the D is better for the head slot i would say thats a personal preferance. Im sure the build would still work on the D

Edited by Burke IV, 11 July 2017 - 11:00 PM.

[Mystere]

ScreamingSkull, on 11 July 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

Lrm abusers upset people are using AMS... wowow

Yes, people are abusing one of the weakest weapons in the game.

GTFOOH!!!!

[Burke IV]

KekistanWillRiseAgain, on 11 July 2017 - 10:49 PM, said:

Wow... all those Builds made me sad.

The ones that wernt the night gyr or my huntsman made me sad too. Blame PGI

Edited by Burke IV, 11 July 2017 - 11:11 PM.

[Mystere]

Just remove the missile warning. That should be a good enough buff.

[Mystere]

Yellonet, on 11 July 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Why is it so hard to understand...
This is a game, and as such a weapon that gives the player the ability to shoot homing missiles with no LOS should be bad compared to direct fire weapons. You're essentially sitting behind cover taking zero risk and you can still deal loads of damage. Yeah, such a weapon should NOT be as effective as other weapons.

But then again LRMs have spread while IS AC-2/5/10/20s, PPCs and gauss are all PPFLD. Maybe we should make all ACs produce a stream of 10-100 bullets and PPCs 90% splash. That should be fair, right?

Edited by Mystere, 11 July 2017 - 11:52 PM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Why would LRMs deserve a buff to counteract what was a direct nerf to them? Doesn't that defeat the entire purpose?

In any case, no LRM buff without map reworks to all the LRM hell maps like Polar Highlands, Grim Plexus etc. I could accept a general buff to LRMs so that they're more usable on LRM-unfriendly maps if it didn't mean they'd become even worse to play against on all the maps with like 1 piece of hard cover for every 5 grid squares.

Edited by Aggravated Assault Mech, 11 July 2017 - 11:42 PM.

[Vellron2005]

I can't tell you guys enough how hilarious this thread is for me..

It's just one more "LRM" thread, and the people, as always, can't seem to agree if LRMs are complete trash or totally OP..

The fact of the matter is.. as a known LRM user, I find LRMs good and in a great place right now. Sure, if you use only one or two small launchers, they will be ineffective, but if properly boated, they will wreck face.

My recent best games ever were done with LRM boats.

I hope LAMS won't change that much..

For me.. LRMs are great the way they are, especially in the light of ATMs to come, and DO NOT need buffs or nerfs.

[Burke IV]

Another issue in the LRMs vs AMS battle is that all the new changes nerfed ammo. Yes you can get some back via the tree but its not enough. Sure maybe some of your LRMs might get thru eventually but the amout of ammo you would spend fighting that fight makes it not worth the trouble. AMS is op by its very presence atm, unless your are spamming LRM60 you know to not even bother. Its like they looked at LRMs and went round and kicked them in every way they could think of and then carefully tested it to make sure there was absolutly no chance of them being effective in stream fire against really even 1 ams let alone 2.

[Snazzy Dragon]

I think the only mech I've seen recently that's done consistently decent is that LRM 15 quirked awesome, and even then that thing is a bit of a joke when you consider its geometry, backup weapons, ammo count, XL vulnerability, etc, assuming you take 3+ racks with artimes to get actual results with it.

LRMs are just bad weapons to let bads kill other bads for the most part, or a "why the hell not" as is the case with the LRM80+A Supernova A.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Mystere, on 11 July 2017 - 11:29 PM, said:

Just remove the missile warning. That should be a good enough buff.

This. Then reduce AMS missile destroying power a tad and give the warning functionality to AMS. Add direction indicators for the incoming missiles. Multiple AMS gives faster missile detection.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 11 July 2017 - 11:35 PM, said:

But then again LRMs have spread while IS AC-2/5/10/20s, PPCs and gauss are all PPFLD. Maybe we should make all ACs produce a stream of 10-100 bullets and PPCs 90% splash. That should be fair, right?

Don't forget to give those ACs and PPCs 200 m/s speed.