49 replies to this topic

[CK16]

So...how would one go about resurrecting the venerablE Juggernauts of MWO. The mechs deemed to slow to be effective in any serious notion. That in almost all game modes are left behind to be feasted appon by Locust swarms....How does one make this niche of slow but big gun boats worth a cent in the competive meta fields with out making them like generic fast attack gun boats (see Kodiak and Mad IIC).

Now we don't really want to buff them cause let's be honest THEY STILL bring the rain of pain when they get guns on...So do we give them more armor and structure? This had greatly helped the Atlas and King Crab...but still you see more warriors prefer the faster Assaults to assuming keep up with Heavies. Do we give them agility and better range of motion? Maybe it just ends up being how the community prefers a certain play stlye, so nothing would change the viability of a Juggernaut untill the community changes how they play (but good luck with that....). Cause it is a bit upsetting to see, well ok Atlas and King Crab are fairly respected now, just not a prefers chassis in say FW? But we get to the Direwolf (and even some saying the Annihilator) being regarded as well a beached whale?

So with out breaking out of lore and the current rules what can be realisticly done to revive this rare mech type?

[davoodoo]

How exactly can these mech shine? normally they would trade engine power for firepower, but since theres ghost and cries for ed it cant really put much firepower can it?

So artificially bump them in agility till they are good at role they were never designed for??

Edited by davoodoo, 10 July 2017 - 01:58 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

You know how the Skill Tree gives a much larger percentage of Armor/Structure for Lights and a Smaller percentage of Armor/Structure for Assaults? Well, how about we give a much larger percentage of Speed Tweak for the Assaults? The fixed percentage gives them a much lower actual increase than the already fast Lights get. So if the Lights are getting 7.5% Speed Tweak then maybe we give the Assaults 12.5%? Mediums and Heavies get something in between.

[SMDMadCow]

New tech - modular armor, shields, hardened armor, Ferro lamellor armor. Forgot Blue shield PDF.
Jihad + tech but yeah...

Edited by SMDMadCow, 10 July 2017 - 02:07 PM.

[LordBraxton]

New tech is not the answer. It's inexcusable that PGI hasn't balanced what theyve had.

I think armor quirks are the savior of ****** designs. I haven't seen an atlas in forever, so clearly it needs even more armor. Inner sphere assaults should start at +12 per torso section, and slow tanks like the atlas should be more like +30 per section.

We will see if the new tech changes anything, but I still see no reason to bring IS over clan. My Orion IIC is kicking *** and making me rich cause of its armor quirks. I think it is hilarious that the Orion and Orion IIC have the same quirks. I dont think the IIC needs a nerf, but it goes to show how out of touch PGI are with the old IS designs. Most IS mechs have sucked since the OP quirks got axed.

Edited by LordBraxton, 10 July 2017 - 02:19 PM.

[Khobai]

Give the slow assaults a +X% max speed quirk

We know its possible because summoner used to get +5% max speed.

Give all Direwolves a +7.5% max speed quirk. That effectively raises its top speed from 52 to 56 (including speed tweak)

Or if thats too good maybe only give all Direwolves a +5% max speed quirk. But then give the Direwolf Prime right torso (the one with 0 weapon hardpoints) an additional +5% max speed quirk. So if you use the right torso with no hardpoints you can pick up +10% max speed total.

The Direwolf could also use CT and ST structure quirks as well as its ECM variant. The Direwolf is no longer in danger of being overpowered with ECM so its time to just give it ECM. That would help differentiate it from the Kodiak as well.

Edited by Khobai, 10 July 2017 - 02:30 PM.

[Deathlike]

Rampage, on 10 July 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

You know how the Skill Tree gives a much larger percentage of Armor/Structure for Lights and a Smaller percentage of Armor/Structure for Assaults? Well, how about we give a much larger percentage of Speed Tweak for the Assaults? The fixed percentage gives them a much lower actual increase than the already fast Lights get. So if the Lights are getting 7.5% Speed Tweak then maybe we give the Assaults 12.5%? Mediums and Heavies get something in between.

Speed tweak doesn't increase overall agility due to engine decoupling. Even then, a Dire Wolf going from 52.2 to ~54.7 does not really do much in the grand scheme of things.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Atlas, Banshee, King Crab, Direwolf, Stalker, Executioner.

Better negative pitch angles, better positive pitch angles,
90 degree max rotation limits for all.
But! Torso twist speed needs to go up.

All that armor, and the inability to twist fast enough to spread damage = FAIL.

[LordBraxton]

Link agility to engine size

[Khobai]

Quote

All that armor, and the inability to twist fast enough to spread damage = FAIL.

The atlas seems fine to me. It can still use a 360 engine. And has serious armor/structure quirks. And access to ECM. And the atlas is getting MUCH better offensive options with the LFE and the new tech.

The direwolf is far worse off stuck with a 300 engine, no quirks, and no ECM.

Quote

a Dire Wolf going from 52.2 to ~54.7 does not really do much in the grand scheme of things.

But a direwolf going 5% faster, with structure quirks, and ECM would be a considerable improvement.

With ATMs being added to the game its finally possible to add the Direwolf-C which has ECM as well as ATMs. The ECM is also in the CT so you cant just buy an omnipod to give every direwolf ECM. Only the direwolf-C can have ECM.

It also has missile hardpoints on the arms and head which adds a great deal of variation to the direwolf with regard to missile loadouts.

Edited by Khobai, 10 July 2017 - 02:46 PM.

[Mechteric]

I assume you're talking about those mechs over 100 Tons in mass?


Forget about them, they're just slightly mobile turrets and wouldn't survive as a standard player option.



However, as a form of "VIP" to protect, that could be interesting perhaps (or at least more interesting than some random boring Atlas), but only if it were allowed to shoot back!

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 10 July 2017 - 02:49 PM.

[CK16]

LordBraxton, on 10 July 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Link agility to engine size

solves nothing for the already slow Assaults and just makes the larger engine capped or NO OMNI mechs further ahead of the curve...the decoupling is a good balancing factor but they need to start adjusting the agility quirks to help under performers...and no your Timberwolf and Kodiak are not under performing cause they are less agile now.

CapperDeluxe, on 10 July 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

I assume you're talking about those mechs over 100 Tons in mass?


Forget about them, they're just slightly mobile turrets and wouldn't survive as a standard player option.



However, as a form of "VIP" to protect, that could be interesting perhaps (or at least more interesting than some random boring Atlas), but only if it were allowed to shoot back!

hardly what I am talking about, Juggernaut is an official Battletech classification for a mech.

[Mechteric]

CK16, on 10 July 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

hardly what I am talking about, Juggernaut is an official Battletech classification for a mech.

My bad, not a term I'm used to seeing (which apparently also includes Hunchback, a 50 tonner and Shootist, a 70 tonner: http://www.sarna.net...aut_BattleMechs)

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 10 July 2017 - 02:56 PM.

[davoodoo]

CapperDeluxe, on 10 July 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

I assume you're talking about those mechs over 100 Tons in mass?


Forget about them, they're just slightly mobile turrets and wouldn't survive as a standard player option.

With gh or ed sure, if i could however get my hands on omega and put 4 uac20 on it and fire them together it would be called op...

[Valhallan]

Making juggs useful is easy, just add the AOE direct fire versions of artillery weapons such as the artillery cannons and the arrow IV, bam useful. They'll serve as front-line firebases that will force assaults or else the peeking poking other team will get whittled to ash by the constant pounding.

[LORD ORION]

Wrestling moves...

Like an Atlas can pick up and body slam a locust before following up with an elbow drop.

[MechaBattler]

Being able to torso twist at an adequate rate would be a huge boon for Assaults. Without taking anything away from nimbler mechs. Perhaps they should give all assaults greater crit reduction from the skill tree.

[Johnny Z]

This is a good balance topic. Some heavies can match or exceed some of the assaults firepower and this along with larger size and slower movement makes for much more difficult gameplay.

I think balance is extremely close here as it stands but more armor for these mechs would be good to.

This from quite a bit of experience with a 56 kph King Crab with dual AC 20's. It does very well but again the slow speed and large size is a challenge.

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 July 2017 - 03:20 PM.

[Skanderborg]

davoodoo, on 10 July 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

How exactly can these mech shine? normally they would trade engine power for firepower, but since theres ghost and cries for ed it cant really put much firepower can it?

So artificially bump them in agility till they are good at role they were never designed for??

Exactly , the Dire Wolf should be able to fire 4-6 Large Lasers at the same time , its what it was meant for , or any other combination of big weapons with GH.

[Cy Mitchell]

Deathlike, on 10 July 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Speed tweak doesn't increase overall agility due to engine decoupling. Even then, a Dire Wolf going from 52.2 to ~54.7 does not really do much in the grand scheme of things.

That is true and I was going to add mobility into the suggestion and then I remembered all the complaints from the Light advocates about Heavies and Assaults dancing around like"fat ballerinas". No matter what you suggest someone is going to have a problem with it. At least a bigger speed tweaks for the Assaults would help them not get left behind quite as much or as quickly.

The real problem is not the Mechs mobility or speed. It is that the team fails to play as a team.