675 replies to this topic

[Grus]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

Well, Heavy Lasers are supposed to be the Clans' brawling lasers, it's just that their duration and cooldown are still too high right now.

Clan ACs are burst-fire because like the PPCs, they're smaller and lighter, not to mention longer-ranged than the IS versions. You can run two class 10 ACs in the side torsos WITH XL engines, while the IS can't even run 2 LB10-Xs with LFE, you can also run a Class 20 AC with XL, while the IS can't do that with theirs.

then don't use a XL. My atlas is still running 60 with a st and can put out a decent alpha. And yes heavy Las duration is way to long and heat way too high for brawling. Too easy to spread damage and too easy to overheat quickly. All the IS has to do is the same thing they have been doing with Las vomit with thier super low heat and duration Las and they will out preform in the brawl every time.

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Well damn, I completely missed the changes to the heavy lasers, 6->6.5 damage on the HSL and 16->18 damage on the HLL, assuming the HLL damage isn't a typo, that's going to make the duration acceptable (better damage/tick than the LPL). I certainly approve of this change.

your not wrong, but you're gonna get really hot real quick. And due to IS mech design with the shield arms it's going to be easy to twist away that damage from your targeted spot.

[Zergling]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

don't think you understand..clan weps are supposed to be IMPROVED versions of IS tech. So again why in Odin's name should i slow down the shot?

Because MWO is a FPS PVP game, where balance is more important than lore where some things are 'supposed' to be better than others.

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

but why would a IS player want a clan laser? They try to do their black knight/warhammer/battlemaster/banchee build with clan tech they will kill themselves after the 2nd or 3rd alpha. They don't need the range because their 'LL can still do damn good damage out to 1200m... Add to that the speed they can move to get in range to use the superior mid range brawl Now that we don't have the ppcgauss combo any more.

Give the IS mech Clan DHS, endo, ferro and XL, and it will have no problems using the Clan lasers.

The IS mech will then most definitely be more powerful.

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

Well, Heavy Lasers are supposed to be the Clans' brawling lasers, it's just that their duration and cooldown are still too high right now.

Nah, only the Heavy Small is a brawling laser, joining the Clan ER Small and Small Pulse in that role.

Heavy Medium and Heavy Large are just too hot for a brawl; those appear to be have the role of 'high tonnage and hardpoint efficiency' weapons.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

And yes heavy Las duration is way to long and heat way too high for brawling. Too easy to spread damage and too easy to overheat quickly. All the IS has to do is the same thing they have been doing with Las vomit with thier super low heat and duration Las and they will out preform in the brawl every time.

your not wrong, but you're gonna get really hot real quick. And due to IS mech design with the shield arms it's going to be easy to twist away that damage from your targeted spot.

At 18 damage the HLL has better damage/tick than even the LPL, so even if your target is twisting you can still get more damage off. We'll still have to see how they fare now but this will certainly make HLs a better choice than their ER counterparts for brawling.

[Grus]

Zergling, on 15 July 2017 - 09:51 AM, said:

Because MWO is a FPS PVP game, where balance is more important than lore where some things are 'supposed' to be better than others.





Give the IS mech Clan DHS, endo, ferro and XL, and it will have no problems using the Clan lasers.

The IS mech will then most definitely be more powerful.





Nah, only the Heavy Small is a brawling laser, joining the Clan ER Small and Small Pulse in that role.

Heavy Medium and Heavy Large are just too hot for a brawl; those appear to be have the role of 'high tonnage and hardpoint efficiency' weapons.

on the last part, agreed the hsmal is the brawl version. But why would I take a med or large over current er's when (madcatmk2 as example) I can bring more ammo for ballistics or ATMs or just bring bigger atm and ballistic? The heat those heavies in my eyes arnt worth it. I fire off 4 med heavies I'm gonna need to cool down for a bit before I think of fireing anything else... effectively putting my mech out of the fight for X amount of time. Would I have felt a lot of damage? Yes, but considering how easy it will be spread to other sections of the mech, was it effective dammage?

[Sevronis]

Man when saw that IS ERPPCs were being buffed in velocity in a huge amount, I was stoked. I prefer sniping with ERPPCs rather than Gauss, so this makes me very happy. As for the Gauss/PPC linked ghost heat, I rather like that. Despite that I was also using the PPC/Gauss combo for comp (though was required to by team captain if the deck called for long range), I will not miss it. I didn't really care for not only managing the charge on the Gauss, but also alpha striking it with the PPCs. Though I wonder if 2 Gauss/1 PPC builds will still be used a lot as I imagine even with the GH penalty, it will be easier to manage than 2 PPC/1 Gauss.

[Tarl Cabot]

denAirwalkerrr, on 15 July 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

I really feel that players still has't got their hands on gauss+mpl combination. Alpha of 4 MPLs=2 PPCs yes only for 400m< and not pinpoint but still very easy to land it on one location even when poptarting and way better damage per heat and raw dps than PPC. Without jokes my first game on 2xGauss+4xMPL NTG was 1400 dmg. For mid/long ranges in CW summoner now is way much better.

It is not whether or not it catches on, since it is dependent on the player trying to play sniper at long range while allowing his team to be the meat shields, taking the incoming damage. That is many see happening lots when a NTG is setup w/GR+ERPPC, there is no actual sharing of armor.

Clans used GR/ERML lots during CW before most of the ER weapons max ranges were cut in half, but then it was primarily Timberwolfs and maybe Ebon Jags. With the overall range increase for the ERML I can see NTG using GR+ERML a little further back.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 July 2017 - 10:21 AM.

[LastKhan]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 July 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Agreed. Told him that when he originally redesigned the logo. However, I think he's just trying to nudge the logo abomination in the direction of actually looking good. Plus, that odd design choice of upright ears was in the source logo.

I'd love for the ears to be flattened, but it's not a deal breaker.

Yea pretty much but i went ahead and made it just to see.

[Zergling]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

on the last part, agreed the hsmal is the brawl version. But why would I take a med or large over current er's when (madcatmk2 as example) I can bring more ammo for ballistics or ATMs or just bring bigger atm and ballistic? The heat those heavies in my eyes arnt worth it. I fire off 4 med heavies I'm gonna need to cool down for a bit before I think of fireing anything else... effectively putting my mech out of the fight for X amount of time. Would I have felt a lot of damage? Yes, but considering how easy it will be spread to other sections of the mech, was it effective dammage?

The Heavy Medium is actually more heat efficient than the Clan ER Medium, and have lower HPS:

ER Medium = 7 damage, 6.3 heat, 1.11 damage/heat, 1.26 heat/second
Heavy Medium = 10 damage, 8 heat, 1.25 damage/heat, 1.24 heat/second

So if you want to run cooler, running Heavy Mediums instead of ER Mediums is actually a good idea.
You'll have a larger 'spike' in heat when you fire the Heavy Mediums, but because of how much slower the the Heavy Mediums cycle, you'll be running cooler overall, in addition to doing more damage for the amount of heat you are generating.

For negatives, you'll have worse range and beam duration.


Heavy Large are worse in heat than the ER Large though:

ER Large = 11 damage, 10 heat, 1.10 damage/heat, 1.96 heat/second
Heavy Large = 18 damage, 17 heat, 1.06 damage/heat, 2.33 heat/second

The only real reason for the Heavy Large is as much damage as possible in a limited number of energy hardpoints.
I can't see much use for it outside of that; the weapon needs buffs.

[Sevronis]

Tordin, on 15 July 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

The lxb 2 have 4, the lbx 5 have 5 and lbx 10 have 6 slots respectively then suddenly IS LBX 20, spikes to 11 slots... why? Its not as pinpoint as other 11 slot IS ballistics, 11 slots just hapers it and also hinders the LBX 20 to be combined with LFE for example.

Decrease it to at max 10 slots.

Also. Clan ppc alredy have splash dmg which hamper it and they only have ONE ppc type. Why not let clans have higher velocity?

Inner Sphere ER PPC
• Velocity increased to 1900 (from 1300).

Clan ER PPC
• Heat increased to 14.5 (from 14)
• Velocity increased to 1500 --> 2000 (from 1300).

1. The IS LBX20 slot value on Sarna is 11 slots. I have yet to see any weapon system in MWO have a different slot and tonnage amount than the tabletop values which is also seen on Sarna. If I'm wrong on this, point it out to me please. Yes, this means you will still have to take a STD engine for IS if you want to use an LBX20. Sounds to me like you just want to be able to use it with the Light Fusion engine. Also, it's supposed to be bigger than the Clan LBX20. Clan tech is made smaller and lighter, while IS tech is heavier and bulkier. Deal with it.

2. You pretty much answered your own question about the reason Clan ERPPCs didnt get as big of a velocity buff. Not only does it do 15 DMG per shot (10 to target and 5 to adjacent), but it is 1 ton lighter and 1 crit slot smaller than the IS ERPPC and has further range. Also, the IS Heavy PPC is more in line damage-wise with the Clan ERPPC, but has slower velocity, has a min range, and less velocity. The Clan ERPPC may not have gotten as much of a buff in velocity as the IS ERPPC, but it still got an INCREASE to velocity as well. Be happy they didn't nerf it instead.

[Grus]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

At 18 damage the HLL has better damage/tick than even the LPL, so even if your target is twisting you can still get more damage off. We'll still have to see how they fare now but this will certainly make HLs a better choice than their ER counterparts for brawling.

I'm not saying the potential damage isn't there but the heat you will incite for that damage is very high. It begs the question of do you want to shoot and take the next 10 seconds cooling down or do you want to be able to fire back to back.

[TankBadger42]

Love the changes, can't wait to play with them!

[Jep Jorgensson]

Antares102, on 15 July 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Read this please:
https://mwomercs.com...ll-off-weapons/

On every page somebody questions the 3 damage of ATM.
Wow really wow.

That addresses one of my concerns, but not the others and frankly, even if they did 4 damage within optimal range, they would still be unusable. My LRM's are far superior to these pi$$ poor knock-offs at almost every range in almost every way.

ThiefofAlways, on 15 July 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

I rant but here is a solution that will balance the game and it is lore/mostly friendly.

Give IS and Clan mixed tech.

Everyone can have everything but for engines. Balance 99% fixed.

PS: And you are in the or close to the right timeline for it.

There is a really good way to fix it but PGI would never do it (since it involves actual work and product quality) and I do not have the time to explain it right now.

[Pariah Devalis]

LastKhan, on 15 July 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Yea pretty much but i went ahead and made it just to see.

Think I liked your revision with erect ears more, actually. While it makes less sense, I think the proportions look better.

[Y E O N N E]

LastKhan, on 15 July 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Yea pretty much but i went ahead and made it just to see.

Both this and your other still look more like bats than cats.

[Grus]

Zergling, on 15 July 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

The Heavy Medium is actually more heat efficient than the Clan ER Medium, and have lower HPS:

ER Medium = 7 damage, 6.3 heat, 1.11 damage/heat, 1.26 heat/second
Heavy Medium = 10 damage, 8 heat, 1.25 damage/heat, 1.24 heat/second

So if you want to run cooler, running Heavy Mediums instead of ER Mediums is actually a good idea.
You'll have a larger 'spike' in heat when you fire the Heavy Mediums, but because of how much slower the the Heavy Mediums cycle, you'll be running cooler overall, in addition to doing more damage for the amount of heat you are generating.

For negatives, you'll have worse range and beam duration.


Heavy Large are worse in heat than the ER Large though:

ER Large = 11 damage, 10 heat, 1.10 damage/heat, 1.96 heat/second
Heavy Large = 18 damage, 17 heat, 1.06 damage/heat, 2.33 heat/second

The only real reason for the Heavy Large is as much damage as possible in a limited number of energy hardpoints.
I can't see much use for it outside of that; the weapon needs buffs.

true but we are looking through the keyhole here. Things to note; ghost heat, are we able to fire all 4 before GH? And if so that's a spike of 32 heat. Odin's Beard that's a lot! Now because I'm on a cell I can't spreadsheet this,

Build; 4hmed 2uac10 2 atm12. Madcatmk2

So with the 4hmed fired and 32 heat produced one tap of the uac and that's close to shutdown threshold, replace that with the ATMs and same thing?

[FunkyT]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

False. Laughably false. There's a reason the meta was shifting away from it, and that the only mech that ran it consistently was the Night Gyr.

Well, why don't you tell me WHY I am false, instead of just blaring "WRONG!"?

It's kinda wierd to see that most people who like the linked GH for Gauss/PPC and are willing to argue for it actually present arguments to support their claims, while everyone who's against this change just go "No, you're all wrong, this change is stupid, period!".

Just tell us why everyone else is wrong, why this change is bad. Present your counterarguments to our claims and convice us of your point!

Just saying no for the sake of saying no doesn't mean anything. Nobody will pay attention to that.


And as a disclaimer: I'm pretty much only playing playing solo QP, since most of my friends don't have much free time to play. So I only experience the meta from there.
But that said, I have matches with 2 Gauss/PPC Night Gyrs on both sides more often than not. Recently had matches with what felt like 3 or more of those on the enemy team, tearing off my fresh MAD-IICs shoulder right after the match started, because I had to pass through maybe 6 seconds of open terrain before getting to cover. It was only midrange (~400 - 500m), which many claim is this loadouts best range, but I still had no way of feasably returning fire and actually trading damage. This is neither fun, nor balanced. Why would you have exactly one loadout, that requires no facetime but equals or even trumps most other builds in terms of alpha strike damage?

The point is: If the Gauss/PPC meta is dying, solo QP hasn't heard the news yet. I dare say it's very alive in this mode, where probably a large portion of the playerbase is running around.

[ThiefofAlways]

They have the HLs running to hot.

[Wintersdark]

Rampage, on 15 July 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

I get where you are coming from with the game set up as it is now. However, is the faction stuff not all cosmetic anyway.

It's a scale, shades of grey. Sure the faction stuff is mostly cosmetic, but as things stand IS or Clan has many substantial differences. Not between sub factions (Davion=Kurita, Ghost Bear=Wolf) but at least between primary factions.

Mixtech would destroy the last actual differentiation, and people would all, regardless of actual faction, run the same loadouts. That's a horrible idea.

Quote

Way off topic but your comments dredged up old ideas I have had on the subject.

I started to respond in length, but yeah, this isn't the place for discussions of ideas like that.

[Pariah Devalis]

More importantly, if it's a dead and dying meta, how does it hurt the game to restrict it, regardless? Increased ttk is the goal. Even if that combination of weapons isn't as popular as it used to be, and even if there are other, more lethal alternative options, does it hurt to have this restriction in place?

That's the real argument you need to make. Because if it's really a case of "not currently the meta," then you shouldn't have any issues with it. Unless, of course, it's a pet build you do not want to give up.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 15 July 2017 - 10:59 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm not saying the potential damage isn't there but the heat you will incite for that damage is very high. It begs the question of do you want to shoot and take the next 10 seconds cooling down or do you want to be able to fire back to back.

The HLL actually has the same HPS as the LPL right now, so considering its 2 tons lighter, that's 2 DHS you can add.