675 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Jep Jorgensson, on 15 July 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

That is not what I read in the patch notes. It said they do 2 damage, max. That on top of everything else (min range, nothing said about a missile health increase, etc) makes them unusable.

Antares102, on 15 July 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Read this please:
https://mwomercs.com...ll-off-weapons/

On every page somebody questions the 3 damage of ATM.
Wow really wow.

^^^

[Jman5]

I'm happy to see they are finally linking PPC and Gauss. That combo has always needed a look, but it got silly in the last year or so with so many new mechs coming out that could support 50 pinpoint + 10 splash damage.

It's always the same folks that get angry every time PGI touches PPC or Gauss. You know, I get that you guys don't like to see your favorite builds get nerfed, What annoys me is how you always imply or directly state that using anything other than PPC/Gauss is low skill, or fighting at close range is for the dirty masses. Give me a break. Gauss travels so fast it might as well be ray-traced.

Gauss+PPC subverted the spirit of what PGI was trying to do with Heat Penalty and it's about time they addressed it. It was hypocritical to allow it to remain, but restrict similar pinpoint combos like dual AC/20, or triple PPC.

And no you can't just replace gauss with Clan UAC/5s and get the same effect like I've seen a couple people state. fires 5 damage, has 2 staggered projectiles, and almost half the projectile speed, requires double tap to do 2/3 guass damage and jams frequently. Good luck with that. Replacing PPC with Large Pulse lasers? Ok you now got ~ 1 second of face time and range that zeroes out at ER PPC range, and you gotta struggle to keep that laser on one component while you're both moving around. ER LL has even worse beam duration and less damage.

People will either need to live with always staggering your PPC/Gauss shots, which they seem to do a lot anyway, or switch to something with less pinpoint.

You know it's not like I'm saying all this because my builds are getting buffed. In the last patch my prefered build got nerfed. And in this patch my new preferred build is getting nerfed.

Edited by Jman5, 15 July 2017 - 08:28 AM.

[ThiefofAlways]

Ok, let them even have engines. I am ok with that. But mixed tech would go a long way to balance it and no need to nerf things or buff others.

Edited by ThiefofAlways, 15 July 2017 - 08:27 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

ThiefofAlways, on 15 July 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

Yet again PGI trying to force us to use IS vs Clan. More clan nerfs. Get over the balance unless you make the weapons the same you will not have balance and there never was suppose to be. I am so glad that I stopped spending money on this game and have received refunds on what I did buy that I could get back.

Clan run small pulse so PGI nerfed those. People switch to ERSL and get ok with it but not happy, PGI nerfs those. Punishing the players and taking what they like or are ok with is not the way to make your paying customers happy.

This game is on death spiral an PGI will not stop it. The answer it not to shake up game play every 2-3 months or even to put out new mechs.

Maybe because the best Clan mechs still outperformed IS mechs? Hell, the MAD-IIC and Night Gyr were still top-tier even after the mobility nerfs. That aside I agree the ERSL nerf was uncalled for, it was fine where it was after the last nerf, the other 0.5 ton lasers should've been balanced around it, instead Chris seems driven on purposely making small and micro-class lasers underpowered just because of their "Class".

[Rebel Ace Fryslan]

I thought you guys had someone to do work on the GUI.

It needs a bloody lot of work.
And almost no work done this year
.

PS: skilltrees ... where to begin on using it.

Edited by Rebel Ace Fryslan, 15 July 2017 - 08:43 AM.

[Sucy Manbavaran]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

Maybe because the best Clan mechs still outperformed IS mechs? Hell, the MAD-IIC and Night Gyr were still top-tier even after the mobility nerfs. That aside I agree the ERSL nerf was uncalled for, it was fine where it was after the last nerf, the other 0.5 ton lasers should've been balanced around it, instead Chris seems driven on purposely making small and micro-class lasers underpowered just because of their "Class".

just because of their "Class" > Just because of "Clan"

[Gentleman Reaper]

Sucy Manbavaran, on 15 July 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

just because of their "Class" > Just because of "Clan"

Except that Clan ERSLs and SPLs are still miles better than their IS counterparts...

[Grus]

Not cool that clan erppc is slower than IS versions. We could make this up by us3ing a TC but they can make theirs even better with the new IS TC's droping...

[ThiefofAlways]

Either mixed tech or let the clans be better that was the way it is suppose to be. Then make matchmaker 6 clan/6 Is against 6 clan/ 6 IS.

[Tordin]

Overall promising changes. Alot of interesting new content like new factions, ppc/ gauss linking (had to be done, seriously) and quite a few things have been changed for the better regarding weapons and equipment in general. But there are some headache cases here.. I make my changes as I see fit better. But what do I know...Just some suggestions first glance.

The lxb 2 have 4, the lbx 5 have 5 and lbx 10 have 6 slots respectively then suddenly IS LBX 20, spikes to 11 slots... why? Its not as pinpoint as other 11 slot IS ballistics, 11 slots just hapers it and also hinders the LBX 20 to be combined with LFE for example.

Decrease it to at max 10 slots.

I like the Machine gun changes though, but I think the Heavy machine guns could be upped to 1.5 dmg/sec at least and maybe increase the critical hit chance multiplier for LMG a bit more.

The IS small laser ranges are on equal footing to Clans 400 max and 200 optimal??

Change Clans to 500 and 250 respectively, they pay with heat.

And this

Inner Sphere Small Pulse Laser
• Heat decreased to 1.7 (from 2).
• Cooldown duration reduced to 1.9 (from 2).

Clan Small Pulse Laser
• Heat decreased to 2.4 --> 2.1 (from 2.7).
• Cooldown duration reduced to 1.9 --> back to 2 (from 2).



Also. Clan ppc alredy have splash dmg which hamper it and they only have ONE ppc type. Why not let clans have higher velocity?

Inner Sphere ER PPC
• Velocity increased to 1900 (from 1300).

Clan ER PPC
• Heat increased to 14.5 (from 14)
• Velocity increased to 1500 --> 2000 (from 1300).

Edited by Tordin, 15 July 2017 - 08:48 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Not cool that clan erppc is slower than IS versions. We could make this up by us3ing a TC but they can make theirs even better with the new IS TC's droping...

Clan ERPPC is one ton less, one slot less (can be mounted in CT), and deals splash damage, it shouldn't have the same velocity as it's heavier, larger and less damaging IS counterpart.

Tordin, on 15 July 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

Also. Clan ppc alredy have splash dmg which hamper it and they only have ONE ppc type. Why not let clans have higher velocity?

The Clan ERPPC has more versatility than the IS PPCs because of its lighter weight and it being only 2 slots. I do feel for Clan players since it's their only PPC type, I think PGI should add an alternate choice, like the I-PPC that Andi has been clamoring for. The cERPPC is powerful enough where it is now.

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 15 July 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[LastKhan]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 July 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

I agree. They kept color simplicity and clean lines. Unfortunately, they made a bat, not a cat. By contrast, LastKhan ( https://mwomercs.com...r/389-lastkhan/ ) did a redesign a while back that both maintains the strengths of the redesign, but actually looks like the Nova Cat logo.



I wouldn't imagine hoping the Nova Cat logo actually looked like a Nova Cat would be an unreasonable expectation. Especially since the in game decal, which is a modified form of the original logo, is absolutely solid. They already simplified it in the decal for view-ability. Just scale it up and be done with it!

I have returned from slumber and wow that new CnC logo is terrible. Not to worry ive already taken the liberty and for free modify the thing to make it more "cat like"


old:



More updated:

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

You're not getting it. The hit to mid range just means people are going to use laser vomit or dakka/ppc builds exclusively instead of also mixing in ppc/gauss builds as well.

Literally, the only mech that unanimously ran ppc/gauss is the Night Gyr, others were doing better with different loadouts but as usual, the forums are months behind the curve.

You're not wrong, but I think you're missing the point here.

Gauss+PPC was certainly not OP, nor was it an overwhelming meta (and indeed, as you say, things have been shifting away anyways).

Why? For all the reasons you say. Gauss+PPC is only really effective in midrange, where you're still able to get good combined hits with accuracy. At long range, the desynchronisation of projectile speeds ensured there was spread.

With you 100%.

The problem with this is that PPC's, outside of Gauss+PPC combos, are pretty garbage overall. It's why PPC's had their velocity so severely nerfed. And they couldn't buff PPC velocity without making Gauss+PPC too good again.

So, we where in a place where Gauss+PPC was usable and decent in midrange, but PPC's on their own where not very good at all, but buffing those PPC's was highly problematic as they couldn't increase speed without dramatically buffing Gauss+PPC, and the last couple years of +/- heat changes on PPC's was just not doing the job.


So, yes, Gauss+PPC is less effective now, but we're in a place where ERPPC's have finally been buffed back to a good level as weapons in their own right. 1900m/s is a HUGE buff, and it's one that couldn't happen when Gauss+ERPPC was an option.

The Ghost Heat change means you can still run Gauss+1ERPPC just fine for 25pt hits (now with much greater long range accuracy, mind you!) but there's less fear of Gauss+PPC becoming OP again with PPC buffs.


I, for one, am very happy to see PPC's be less crappy. I'll miss my gauss+ppc mechs (I've always liked the combo, and never been upset about it personally even in it's heyday) but I'm tired of PPC's being kind of junk weapons otherwise.

[Grus]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Clan ERPPC is one ton less, one slot less (can be mounted in CT), and deals splash damage, it shouldn't have the same velocity as it's heavier, larger and less damaging IS counterpart.

don't think you understand..clan weps are supposed to be IMPROVED versions of IS tech. So again why in Odin's name should i slow down the shot?

[Wintersdark]

Zergling, on 15 July 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

I think you'll find engines, particularly the Clan XL engine, make up much more than 1% of the balance problems.

Yup.

Without a doubt, the Clan XL engine advantage has been the single largest balance problem for IS vs. Clan since the Clan's addition to the game.

It's STILL an advantage, Clan side, but much less so now given the new engines (which are STILL worse than the cXL).

Reducing this advantage is good for Clans, as it gives balance room elsewhere.

[Grus]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

You're not wrong, but I think you're missing the point here.

Gauss+PPC was certainly not OP, nor was it an overwhelming meta (and indeed, as you say, things have been shifting away anyways).

Why? For all the reasons you say. Gauss+PPC is only really effective in midrange, where you're still able to get good combined hits with accuracy. At long range, the desynchronisation of projectile speeds ensured there was spread.

With you 100%.

The problem with this is that PPC's, outside of Gauss+PPC combos, are pretty garbage overall. It's why PPC's had their velocity so severely nerfed. And they couldn't buff PPC velocity without making Gauss+PPC too good again.

So, we where in a place where Gauss+PPC was usable and decent in midrange, but PPC's on their own where not very good at all, but buffing those PPC's was highly problematic as they couldn't increase speed without dramatically buffing Gauss+PPC, and the last couple years of +/- heat changes on PPC's was just not doing the job.


So, yes, Gauss+PPC is less effective now, but we're in a place where ERPPC's have finally been buffed back to a good level as weapons in their own right. 1900m/s is a HUGE buff, and it's one that couldn't happen when Gauss+ERPPC was an option.

The Ghost Heat change means you can still run Gauss+1ERPPC just fine for 25pt hits (now with much greater long range accuracy, mind you!) but there's less fear of Gauss+PPC becoming OP again with PPC buffs.


I, for one, am very happy to see PPC's be less crappy. I'll miss my gauss+ppc mechs (I've always liked the combo, and never been upset about it personally even in it's heyday) but I'm tired of PPC's being kind of junk weapons otherwise.

it WAS the best counter to mid range IS laser vomit. Now we will need to find a new one. Problem is because duration is so low on IS side it's going to be difficult.

[Wintersdark]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

don't think you understand..clan weps are supposed to be IMPROVED versions of IS tech. So again why in Odin's name should i slow down the shot?

No. The design goal is that in MWO, Clan vs. IS has to be 1:1 balanced.

This doesn't mean a Clan ERPPC has to equal an IS ERPPC, but that Clans and IS have to be equal overall (when considering the whole package).

If all clan weapons are better, and clan engines are better, while mech chassis are varied and essentially a wash, then Clans are stronger than IS 1:1. Assymetric numbers balance will never work in MWO, so this is not sustainable.

Arguing "My stuff should just be better because it was in tabletop" is childish and stupid. This is a PvP game, and balance is important.

So, then, if you want your cERPPC to be flatly superior to the IS ERPPC, what do you want to be much worse in order to provide overall balance?

As it stands in these patch notes, I wouldn't say the IS ERPPC is a superior weapon. It's just different. It's more accurate at long range, but it does less total damage (recognizing that the cERPPC splash is of little real value) and (way more important) it's physically larger and heavier.

[ThiefofAlways]

Again it should not be balanced.

[Wintersdark]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

it WAS the best counter to mid range IS laser vomit. Now we will need to find a new one. Problem is because duration is so low on IS side it's going to be difficult.

*shrugs* I'm going to bet it'll work out fine. We'll figure something out.

Note that this change hurts IS as well as Clans. It's not just a Clan nerf. I can accept we relied on it more, but I'm fine with that. Maybe it'll allow some unf**king of other Clan weapons that have been repeatedly nerfed.

ThiefofAlways, on 15 July 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

Again it should not be balanced.

Don't be a moron. It HAS to be balanced. This is a PvP game. There's no viable alternative to balance between factions.

[Sucy Manbavaran]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Except that Clan ERSLs and SPLs are still miles better than their IS counterparts...

i can be true, but one day ... maybe one day, players can understand > if you can spread HugeDamage ... they are someway worse than less damage but Pinpoint ... one day only ><