675 replies to this topic

[meteorol]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

So, yes, Gauss+PPC is less effective now, but we're in a place where ERPPC's have finally been buffed back to a good level as weapons in their own right. 1900m/s is a HUGE buff, and it's one that couldn't happen when Gauss+ERPPC was an option.

You are missing a point though.

1900 m/s buff is IS only. And IS Gauss+PPC was never an issue, because IS lacks mechs that can even field it efficiently (no, a barn wide XL engine mauler with gauss rifles strapped to its side torso is not efficient and the Victor/HGN can't compete with the Night Gyr).

By all means, put IS ER PPCs at 1900m/s. The Nightstar could be the first IS mech that uses Gauss/PPC well in the current meta, and it still pays for it with IS tech, 5 less damage per PPC and strictly inferior gauss rifles (due to weight). Due to weight and slot issues, the Gauss/PPC combo is less potent on IS than on clan side. I could live with a buff.

The clan ER-PPC was only increased to 1500 though, a speed most clan PPC boats already got via skill tree and TCs. It also got more heat, because "The Clan ER PPC pays for this increased Velocity with a bit more Heat given its existing solo-weapon potency."

This means by PGIs data, the Clan ER PPC is already so strong it needs a heat nerf to balance it increased velocity. The buff needed to make the Clan ER PPC viable as solo weapon in PGIs eyes was much smaller than the IS buff, yet the GR/Gauss combo was mostly only prominent on Clan mechs. Unlink ghost heat again, buff IS ER PPC to 1900, Clan to 1400 (which will still be enough to desynch) and +0.25 heat, done.

Edited by meteorol, 15 July 2017 - 11:03 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

FunkyT, on 15 July 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Well, why don't you tell me WHY I am false, instead of just blaring "WRONG!"?

It's kinda wierd to see that most people who like the linked GH for Gauss/PPC and are willing to argue for it actually present arguments to support their claims, while everyone who's against this change just go "No, you're all wrong, this change is stupid, period!".

Just tell us why everyone else is wrong, why this change is bad. Present your counterarguments to our claims and convice us of your point!

Just saying no for the sake of saying no doesn't mean anything. Nobody will pay attention to that.


And as a disclaimer: I'm pretty much only playing playing solo QP, since most of my friends don't have much free time to play. So I only experience the meta from there.
But that said, I have matches with 2 Gauss/PPC Night Gyrs on both sides more often than not. Recently had matches with what felt like 3 or more of those on the enemy team, tearing off my fresh MAD-IICs shoulder right after the match started, because I had to pass through maybe 6 seconds of open terrain before getting to cover. It was only midrange (~400 - 500m), which many claim is this loadouts best range, but I still had no way of feasably returning fire and actually trading damage. This is neither fun, nor balanced. Why would you have exactly one loadout, that requires no facetime but equals or even trumps most other builds in terms of alpha strike damage?

The point is: If the Gauss/PPC meta is dying, solo QP hasn't heard the news yet. I dare say it's very alive in this mode, where probably a large portion of the playerbase is running around.

You should check out the Outreach HPG Reddit right now, they're acting like the Gauss/PPC nerf is the end of the world, and that somehow Gauss/laser combos will become more powerful than they were before.

[Grus]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

The HLL actually has the same HPS as the LPL right now, so considering its 2 tons lighter, that's 2 DHS you can add.

given the space Yes, but that's not likely considering the FF and endo we have to take on most of our mech's. Not disagreeing with you but 2hs in my opinion won't offset that heat spike enough to make we want to bring it. Add in the long duration meaning easier to spread damage and longer I have to stare at the target just adds to the list of downpours I don't like about the weapon.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jman5, on 15 July 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'm happy to see they are finally linking PPC and Gauss. That combo has always needed a look, but it got silly in the last year or so with so many new mechs coming out that could support 50 pinpoint + 10 splash damage.

It's always the same folks that get angry every time PGI touches PPC or Gauss. You know, I get that you guys don't like to see your favorite builds get nerfed, What annoys me is how you always imply or directly state that using anything other than PPC/Gauss is low skill, or fighting at close range is for the dirty masses. Give me a break. Gauss travels so fast it might as well be ray-traced.

Gauss+PPC subverted the spirit of what PGI was trying to do with Heat Penalty and it's about time they addressed it. It was hypocritical to allow it to remain, but restrict similar pinpoint combos like dual AC/20, or triple PPC.

And no you can't just replace gauss with Clan UAC/5s and get the same effect like I've seen a couple people state. fires 5 damage, has 2 staggered projectiles, and almost half the projectile speed, requires double tap to do 2/3 guass damage and jams frequently. Good luck with that. Replacing PPC with Large Pulse lasers? Ok you now got ~ 1 second of face time and range that zeroes out at ER PPC range, and you gotta struggle to keep that laser on one component while you're both moving around. ER LL has even worse beam duration and less damage.

People will either need to live with always staggering your PPC/Gauss shots, which they seem to do a lot anyway, or switch to something with less pinpoint.

You know it's not like I'm saying all this because my builds are getting buffed. In the last patch my prefered build got nerfed. And in this patch my new preferred build is getting nerfed.

I actually have more fun with other builds. But frankly I dont see how you justify this when the combo was at a state where alternative loadouts are actually out performing ppc gauss in the majority of situations. People keep forgetting that aside from the Night Gyr, PPC Gauss isnt even the go to...

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

You should check out the Outreach HPG Reddit right now, they're acting like the Gauss/PPC nerf is the end of the world, and that somehow Gauss/laser combos will become more powerful than they were before.

Well its pretty silly when other loadouts are outperforming it more often than not. So... less variety. And yeah, with ER MLs reaching out to 800 again those loadouts are going to get better.

[Grus]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

I actually have more fun with other builds. But frankly I dont see how you justify this when the combo was at a state where alternative loadouts are actually out performing ppc gauss in the majority of situations. People keep forgetting that aside from the Night Gyr, PPC Gauss isnt even the go to...

quad gauss kdk3 ftw!

[Pariah Devalis]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

You should check out the Outreach HPG Reddit right now, they're acting like the Gauss/PPC nerf is the end of the world, and that somehow Gauss/laser combos will become more powerful than they were before.

What i don't get is this. They claim it is a meta that is retired or on the way out. Meaning bleeding edge comp players won't be using it because better options exist. Be that as it may, it is still a hard hitting nearly pinpoint attack combo.

Given "it isn't being used," I find it mighty suspicious how much people are freaking out over it.

I thought you guys were not using it. So which is it? Is it a powerful meta combination of weapons, or isn't it? Because if you're not using it religiously, why are your jimmies so rustled? It doesn't add up. Either you're lying, or you're arguing just to argue. Neither is acceptable.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 15 July 2017 - 11:14 AM.

[LastKhan]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

Both this and your other still look more like bats than cats.

Its a step up from the original i think. Really they should just use the original cnc logo to begin with and be done with it.

[Y E O N N E]

Knightshadowsong, on 14 July 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

I must ask because I do not see this addressed in the patch notes. Have you addressed the Light PPC Machine gun, Doing PTS time there were mech's equipping 7 or 8 Light PPC's and firing them in chain fire without any heat penalties or anything to counter it besides the low damage, Firing more then 5 medium lasers, even with chain fire, would cause a heat penalty, however there was no such issue in PTS, hence the abuse issue, I don't want to see this become a problem only to have the issue over blown and all PPC's getting a huge heat penalty when they don't need it. Please. For the love of all things holy, Please Make Sure that this stupid 'meta' dies before it even starts.

1.) The DPS for such builds was actually pretty mediocre

2.) It is impossible for any number medium lasers on a single weapon group set to chain fire to cause ghost heat with themselves

2.) How is 7 LPPC on chain-fire any different from firing four AC/5 at you? You actually get more DPS out of the AC/5 since the cool-down is less than half of the 4 s cooldown on LPPC.

3.) It's not a meta; UAC/5 with LPPC, though, might be, but only as a side-grade to UAC/5 with standard PPC

[Gentleman Reaper]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

Well its pretty silly when other loadouts are outperforming it more often than not. So... less variety. And yeah, with ER MLs reaching out to 800 again those loadouts are going to get better.

I'm not disagreeing with this, but at least it's a start. We'll need to observe how ERMLs perform after this, bare in mind that they will run hotter now.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 July 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

What i don't get is this. They claim it is a meta that is retired or on the way out. Meaning bleeding edge comp players won't be using it because better options exist. Be that as it may, it is still a hard hitting nearly pinpoint attack combo.

Given "it isn't being being used," I find it mighty suspicious how much people are freaking out over it.

I thought you guys were not using it. So which is it? Is it a powerful meta combination of weapons, or isn't it? Because if you're not using it religiously, why are your jimmies so rustled? It doesn't add up. Either you're lying, or you're arguing just to argue. Neither is acceptable.

People like options dude. It should be pretty obvious. People dont want to run the same meta loadouts all the time, its nice to have several. The reason this change is bad is because its a situationally good loadout that as a whole puts out less damage than other options. And really, the Night gyr will be a little hotter but will be okay. Mechs that this sucks for are the MAD-IiC-C, Boiler, MCII, Nightstar (aside from the mini annihilator in the reinforcements I fail to see any good use for this thing), Dragon Slayer, Highlander/Highlander IIC, etc. All those mechs are either non competitive or suboptimal variants of the chassis, except for maybe the MCII.

[FunkyT]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

You should check out the Outreach HPG Reddit right now, they're acting like the Gauss/PPC nerf is the end of the world, and that somehow Gauss/laser combos will become more powerful than they were before.

To be honest, I'll take Gauss/Laser over a Gauss/PPC poptart any day.
At least the lasers in that combo force my opponent to face me and to get out of cover for more than 1 second. The longer they are forced to face me, the more their frontloaded pinpoint advantage get's minimized against my DPS weaponry, giving me a fighting chance, or even an advantage. But there is just no fighting chance for me if they don't need to expose themselves. (Spoiler: I prefer brawling )

So if there will be less loadouts with no counters, and more loadouts with more inherent options for counterplay, I'd say it's a net gain for the health of the game.

[Gas Guzzler]

FunkyT, on 15 July 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

To be honest, I'll take Gauss/Laser over a Gauss/PPC poptart any day.
At least the lasers in that combo force my opponent to face me and to get out of cover for more than 1 second. The longer they are forced to face me, the more their frontloaded pinpoint advantage get's minimized against my DPS weaponry, giving me a fighting chance, or even an advantage. But there is just no fighting chance for me if they don't need to expose themselves. (Spoiler: I prefer brawling )

So if there will be less loadouts with no counters, and more loadouts with more inherent options for counterplay, I'd say it's a net gain for the health of the game.

Dude... people said the opposite when laser vomit was in power. You arent looking at the bigger picture.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 15 July 2017 - 11:25 AM.

[FunkyT]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

Dude... people said the opposite when laser vomit was in power. You arent looking at the bigger picture.

And yet again, no support for your claim.

What is this bigger picture you're talking about? Tell me what I'm not seeing, tell me where I'm wrong!
I'm willing to accept your point if you just manage to convince me.

I can't take you in any way serious if you never explain anything and just keep saying "No, wrong!".


I'm not saying it's fun to get melted by long range laser alphas from outside your own nominal fighting distance, but you at least get a chance to return fire, even if it's just scratching them. It telegraphs to them, that you are approaching fighting distance and that they cannot stay there the entire game and keep peeking without consequences.
With Gauss/PPC, you just don't have that. Their exposure is so short, that your lasers will barely do all their damage and most other projectile weapons won't even reach them in time, factoring reaction time into the equation.

So going from Gauss/PPC to Gauss/Laser may not reduce the TTK, but it will reduce the frustration of facing mechs that you cannot do anything against, and can't in any way interact with.


So that's my point.
Now's your turn. Please go ahead, convince me of yours and point out my mistakes and oversights.

Edited by FunkyT, 15 July 2017 - 11:35 AM.

[NocturnalBeast]

No matter what PGI does, there will always be "optimal" combinations of weapons for certain situations, this is the result of having *gasp* a variety of weapons. However, for every "optimal" loadout, there are "optimal" tactics to counter that loadout, the problem, though, is that most people do not want to leave their comfort zone and try something different, so they get mad when their favorite tactics no longer work.

Edited by Ed Steele, 15 July 2017 - 11:42 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

FunkyT, on 15 July 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

And yet again, no support for your claim.

What is this bigger picture you're talking about? Tell me what I'm not seeing, tell me where I'm wrong!
I'm willing to accept your point if you just manage to convince me.

I can't take you in any way serious if you never explain anything and just keep saying "No, wrong!".


I'm not saying it's fun to get melted by long range laser alphas from outside your own nominal fighting distance, but you at least get a chance to return fire, even if it's just scratching them. It telegraphs to them, that you are approaching fighting distance and that they cannot stay there the entire game and keep peeking without consequences.
With Gauss/PPC, you just don't have that. Their exposure is so short, that your lasers will barely do all their damage and most other projectile weapons won't even reach them in time, factoring reaction time into the equation.

So going from Gauss/PPC to Gauss/Laser may not reduce the TTK, but it will reduce the frustration of facing mechs that you cannot do anything against, and can't in any way interact with.


So that's my point.
Now's your turn. Please go ahead, convince me of yours and point out my mistakes and oversights.

I mean i have already explained that most of the time other loadoutd are effective at killing **** quickly. I mean literally, the amount of matches that I get wrecked by long range ppc gauss (at that range they are split firing them anyway provided you arent standing still) is so low i just dont know how to take your point seriously. To be honest, most of the time, I dont even see that many PPC Gauss mechs on a match to match basis, and most of the time i would rather deal with them than a poptarting Hbk/Summoner.

Ed Steele, on 15 July 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

No matter what PGI does, there will always be "optimal" combinations of weapons for certain situations, this is the result of having *gasp* a variety of weapons. However, for every "optimal" loadout, there are "optimal" tactics to counter that loadout, the problem, though, is that most people do not want to leave their comfort zone and try something different, so they get mad when their favorite tactics no longer work.

That might be a point if everyone complaining about the nerf were not perfectly comfortable in laser vomit or dakka/ppc loadouts or ERLL loadouts..

[Wattila]

These changes look pretty good in general, looking forward to the patch.

Can't see what the Gauss/PPC outrage is all about. It was mostly used/good on the Night Gyr (and MAD-II-C) anyway, so the claims of reduced build diversity are pretty laughable, tbh (and you can still stagger fire like before, but with faster PPC projectiles). Gauss/Vomit builds are unaffected, and considering the fact that IS PPCs have been garbage despite IS having no viable 2xGauss/PPC platform, this change ought to bring more build diversity, not less. Might also see more cERPPC Summoners, Hunchies, and Warhawks now.

Edited by Wattila, 15 July 2017 - 11:56 AM.

[Grus]

I think we will see the heavy Las used more in the "hit and run" mech's than the pokers.

Like the iceferrit

[JuIius]

Like always there are some Guys talking about "LORE", "TT" and other Bullsh**.

Would be nice when you *§"%&§ realize that this Game has nothing to do with that.



IS Players are happy, Clanners get the next Alpha right into the Face... "balancing" PGI way.

[Wintersdark]

meteorol, on 15 July 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

You are missing a point though.

1900 m/s buff is IS only. And IS Gauss+PPC was never an issue, because IS lacks mechs that can even field it efficiently (no, a barn wide XL engine mauler with gauss rifles strapped to its side torso is not efficient and the Victor/HGN can't compete with the Night Gyr).

By all means, put IS ER PPCs at 1900m/s. The Nightstar could be the first IS mech that uses Gauss/PPC well in the current meta, and it still pays for it with IS tech, 5 less damage per PPC and strictly inferior gauss rifles (due to weight). Due to weight and slot issues, the Gauss/PPC combo is less potent on IS than on clan side. I could live with a buff.

The clan ER-PPC was only increased to 1500 though, a speed most clan PPC boats already got via skill tree and TCs. It also got more heat, because "The Clan ER PPC pays for this increased Velocity with a bit more Heat given its existing solo-weapon potency."

This means by PGIs data, the Clan ER PPC is already so strong it needs a heat nerf to balance it increased velocity. The buff needed to make the Clan ER PPC viable as solo weapon in PGIs eyes was much smaller than the IS buff, yet the GR/Gauss combo was mostly only prominent on Clan mechs. Unlink ghost heat again, buff IS ER PPC to 1900, Clan to 1400 (which will still be enough to desynch) and +0.25 heat, done.

This is just silly. I'm not going to start arguing what PGI actually meant by what they've said, as what they've said is often wrong anyways.

Yes, the cERPPC's buff - 200m/s - is smaller than the isERPPC's buff - 600m/s.

But, ignoring your ridiculous ramblings above with regards to PGI's motivations, RIGHT NOW, on live, are you seriously going to argue that the Clan ERPPC is better than, or even equal to, the IS ERPPC?

That'd be lunacy. The IS ERPPC is a terrible weapon on live(and rarely used even in combination with Gauss), while the Clan ERPPC is merely ok but kinda bad, except in combination with Gauss Rifles.

This change ISN'T ABOUT GAUSS+PPC BEING OP. It's about Gauss+PPC together being good enough that it requires PPC's to be nerfed to the point that they're kinda garbage outside of that combination.

This has, for years, prevented PPC's of all stripes/factions from being decent weapons on their own right, as any improvement to the PPC lead to an even greater increase in Gauss+PPC combinations.


Now, yes, the ERPPC received a much larger buff. It's looking to be a decent weapon now, in it's own right and not just because it combines well with Gauss.

The cERPPC is improved, too - sure, it's probably improved to where it was when skilled - I haven't looked at the math, but I'll take your word for it. But it still gets skills. If it went from 1300-1500 before, same gain (because you still get skills) takes the cERPPC from 1500-1730.

So, now we get even more velocity from the skills than we did before. It's still a buff, it's just a smaller buff than the (initially far worse) IS ERPPC got.



Again, this ISN'T about Gauss+PPC being a problem now. It's about the inability to make PPC's good weapons without MAKING the Gauss+PPC combo a problem.

[Grus]

Wattila, on 15 July 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

These changes look pretty good in general, looking forward to the patch.

Can't see what the Gauss/PPC outrage is all about. It was mostly used/good on the Night Gyr (and MAD-II-C) anyway, so the claims of reduced build diversity are pretty laughable, tbh. Gauss/Vomit builds are unaffected, and considering the fact that IS PPCs have been garbage despite IS having no viable 2xGauss/PPC platform, this change ought to bring more build diversity, not less. Might also see more cERPPC Summoners, Hunchies, and Warhawks now.

it's possible to do it on the kdk3 and the direwolf but yeah..