675 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

JuIius, on 15 July 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

Like always there are some Guys talking about "LORE", "TT" and other Bullsh**.

Would be nice when you *§"%&§ realize that this Game has nothing to do with that.

Agreed completely.

Quote

IS Players are happy, Clanners get the next Alpha right into the Face... "balancing" PGI way.

And yet, barring a brief ~2-3 month period a couple years ago, Clans have been consistently stronger than the IS both overall (in terms of best mechs vs. best mechs in FP) and on average (Bad IS mechs are MUCH worse than bad Clam mechs).

So.... yeah, Clans get nerfed, over and over again, because they've consistently remained stronger than the Inner Sphere.

Maybe - this is entirely possible, mind you - we're going to see IS take the lead now. That could certainly happen. And if it does, that's a good thing. Because then we know we've gone far enough, and they just need to dial stuff back a bit. Maybe cut some Clam laser durations, for example =)

[Grus]

I just do not understand how our geneticly engineered scientists could only improve our Erppc by a fraction of what these Freebirths have done, they should be ashamed.

[Grus]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

Agreed completely.


And yet, barring a brief ~2-3 month period a couple years ago, Clans have been consistently stronger than the IS both overall (in terms of best mechs vs. best mechs in FP) and on average (Bad IS mechs are MUCH worse than bad Clam mechs).

So.... yeah, Clans get nerfed, over and over again, because they've consistently remained stronger than the Inner Sphere.

Maybe - this is entirely possible, mind you - we're going to see IS take the lead now. That could certainly happen. And if it does, that's a good thing. Because then we know we've gone far enough, and they just need to dial stuff back a bit. Maybe cut some Clam laser durations, for example =)

if the title said MW:O *based on the battletech universe* then yeah if not gripe as much. But they have that other tag as a battletech game. I see it like the Dawn of war franchise. The one released recently is NOT a DoW..

[Wintersdark]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 July 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

What i don't get is this. They claim it is a meta that is retired or on the way out. Meaning bleeding edge comp players won't be using it because better options exist. Be that as it may, it is still a hard hitting nearly pinpoint attack combo.

Given "it isn't being used," I find it mighty suspicious how much people are freaking out over it.

I thought you guys were not using it. So which is it? Is it a powerful meta combination of weapons, or isn't it? Because if you're not using it religiously, why are your jimmies so rustled? It doesn't add up. Either you're lying, or you're arguing just to argue. Neither is acceptable.

For real.

If it's not being used, and it's on it's way out as a meta, then there's little loss to diversity. Sure, a very specific build isn't as good anymore.


On the other hand, a full range of weapons are getting buffed - PPC's. Finally, an end to low velocity ERPPC's that can't do what they're specifically built to do (fight effectively at long range)! This means all other builds using ERPPC's get better. That's adding a lot of diversity, as there's suddenly reason to use them outside of just packed in with Gauss.

Now, I get Grus here feels that Gauss+cERPPC's is the only thing preventing the IS from just running roughshod all over the clams, but if that is indeed the case, then there are other problems that need fixing and those will become readily apparent.

Relying on a very specific build (Gauss + 2 cERPPC's) for all your faction balance is terrible.

[JuIius]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

Agreed completely.


And yet, barring a brief ~2-3 month period a couple years ago, Clans have been consistently stronger than the IS both overall (in terms of best mechs vs. best mechs in FP) and on average (Bad IS mechs are MUCH worse than bad Clam mechs).

So.... yeah, Clans get nerfed, over and over again, because they've consistently remained stronger than the Inner Sphere.

Maybe - this is entirely possible, mind you - we're going to see IS take the lead now. That could certainly happen. And if it does, that's a good thing. Because then we know we've gone far enough, and they just need to dial stuff back a bit. Maybe cut some Clam laser durations, for example =)

Sorry, i cant see what makes Clans better ... the longer Duration of Lasers? The bigger Heat of Energy Weapons? The lower Health of components? The Spread of AC`s?

NO Range advantage of any Clan weapon can equalize that.

Let them fix everything same, range, weight, health whatever, for clan and is side... that would be a Balance.

Thought there was a point when you cant be pissed more.... i was wrong... no Problem for PGI

Edited by JuIius, 15 July 2017 - 12:10 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

For real.

If it's not being used, and it's on it's way out as a meta, then there's little loss to diversity. Sure, a very specific build isn't as good anymore.


On the other hand, a full range of weapons are getting buffed - PPC's. Finally, an end to low velocity ERPPC's that can't do what they're specifically built to do (fight effectively at long range)! This means all other builds using ERPPC's get better. That's adding a lot of diversity, as there's suddenly reason to use them outside of just packed in with Gauss.

Now, I get Grus here feels that Gauss+cERPPC's is the only thing preventing the IS from just running roughshod all over the clams, but if that is indeed the case, then there are other problems that need fixing and those will become readily apparent.

Relying on a very specific build (Gauss + 2 cERPPC's) for all your faction balance is terrible.

You can read my response to Pariahs post. In a nutshell, nerfing something that is already being outperformed is bad for variety.

[Wintersdark]

Grus, on 15 July 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

if the title said MW:O *based on the battletech universe* then yeah if not gripe as much. But they have that other tag as a battletech game. I see it like the Dawn of war franchise. The one released recently is NOT a DoW..

Again, because you seem to lack basic reading comprehension:

1) From Clan Introduction day one, PGI's has been explicit with their balance design regarding Clan vs. IS balance: Parity. That's been the stated goal from the beginning.
2) Weismann himself said he made a mistake making Clans so much better than the Inner Sphere; that it was a poor game design decision then and he wished he could change it. So, yeah,
3) It IS a poor game design decision. Whatever you feel "should" be the case, Clans and Inner Sphere MUST be balanced for good gameplay. There is no reasonable alternative. This is a faction based PvP arena game. It needs to be balanced.

I just don't get why this is so hard to grasp. Whatever you want to read into "A battletech game": GAMEPLAY MUST ALWAYS TRUMP LORE.

After all, if they just implemented Clans as per lore, things would have been vastly worse from the get go, and instead of improving over time they'd just have gotten ever worse. Who'd continue to play Inner Sphere if the game design was "You just suck, and will lose consistently as a result."

Because no, you won't find better players gravitating to the weaker side. That just doesn't happen.

You'd just find IS populated entirely with people who like losing, or lore grognards who also absolutely love IS (as the Clan grognards would still happily be piloting their stronger mechs).

How things worked out in Tabletop Lore - IS winning despite Clans being stronger - was stupid writing more than anything else. "We win because they are dumb."

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

You can read my response to Pariahs post. In a nutshell, nerfing something that is already being outperformed is bad for variety.

Again, sir:

They nerfed a specific weapon combination, which allows a full range of weapons to be good in many other situations. Lose one build, gain many. Ironically, as I said to you earlier, this makes Gauss+a single ERPPC a MUCH better weapon combination as it gains near perfect convergence at range.

And the lost build, if it's not being used much anymore, is no real loss *shrugs*

What's more, we can FINALLY not have super-nerfed PPC's because PGI is afraid that Gauss+PPC will become dominant again.

And it certainly would have. Without doubt. With 1900m/s ERPPC's, Gauss+ERPPCs becomes extremely effective.

[Wintersdark]

JuIius, on 15 July 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Sorry, i cant see what makes Clans better ... the longer Duration of Lasers? The bigger Heat of Energy Weapons? The lower Health of components? The Spread of AC`s?

NO Range advantage of any Clan weapon can equalize that.

Let them fix everything same, range, weight, health whatever, for clan and is side... that would be a Balance.

Thought there was a point when you cant be pissed more.... i was wrong... no Problem for PGI

... Except Clans are still (at least pre-patch) stronger, as has been clearly and repeatedly shown by metrics.

Notice how Clans win every event? EVERY SINGLE ONE? Even the most recent one, they shared the statistics, and they showed a clear advantage clan side.

So... yeah, Clans HAVE BEEN stronger, consistently (barring a very brief couple month period due to some errant quirks back in.... 2015?) as has been evidenced by hard data.

Why? When Clan burn durations and such are longer? Your lovely little list that conveniently misses:

How the Clan equipment is all lighter and smaller, Clans have ES/FF for the same slot count as just ES IS side, Clan FF gives more free tonnage per armor than IS FF, Clan XL engines are vastly superior to IS ones, Clan DHS are smaller and thus Clan mechs can support many more DHS than IS mechs can (where IS tends to cap out around 18 and that's a lot, Clan mechs readily get into the 20's) - both due to total slot counts and because Clan DHS can fit in places IS DHS just can't like legs and CT.

The proof is in the pudding. As I said above, every single event to date has shown a substantial advantage to Clans. Every one.

[Delta1262 Scorch]

Inner Sphere ER PPC
• Velocity increased to 1900 (from 1300).

Clan ER PPC
• Heat increased to 14.5 (from 14)
• Velocity increased to 1500 (from 1300).

Yeeeeeah, right. That's what is called Clan advanced technologies, like: Well you have much less velocity, but at least you have more heat generation...wait a sec

[Wintersdark]

Delta1262 Scorch, on 15 July 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Inner Sphere ER PPC
• Velocity increased to 1900 (from 1300).

Clan ER PPC
• Heat increased to 14.5 (from 14)
• Velocity increased to 1500 (from 1300).

Yeeeeeah, right. That's what is called Clan advanced technologies, like: Well you have much less velocity, but at least you have more heat generation...wait a sec

Again: Right now, the IS ERPPC is dramatically worse than the Clan ERPPC. Much, MUCH worse. It's trash-tier, unless a mech has substantial quirks. So yes, of COURSE it gets bigger buffs.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Delta1262 Scorch, on 15 July 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Inner Sphere ER PPC
• Velocity increased to 1900 (from 1300).

Clan ER PPC
• Heat increased to 14.5 (from 14)
• Velocity increased to 1500 (from 1300).

Yeeeeeah, right. That's what is called Clan advanced technologies, like: Well you have much less velocity, but at least you have more heat generation...wait a sec

Yeah, let's not mention Clan ERPPC being 1 ton lighter, 1 slot smaller, and dealing splash damage, nope, no worth in balance at all...

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 15 July 2017 - 12:31 PM.

[FunkyT]

JuIius, on 15 July 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Sorry, i cant see what makes Clans better ... the longer Duration of Lasers? The bigger Heat of Energy Weapons? The lower Health of components? The Spread of AC`s?

NO Range advantage of any Clan weapon can equalize that.

Let them fix everything same, range, weight, health whatever, for clan and is side... that would be a Balance.

Thought there was a point when you cant be pissed more.... i was wrong... no Problem for PGI

Weight and Critspace. That's pretty much all of it. And it makes a world of difference.

Clan XL has the same weight as IS XL, but with less space requirements and the survivability bonus.
Clan Upgrades (Endosteel and Ferrofibre) take up less space and, if I'm not mistaken, even have bigger weight savings.
Clan Double Heatsinks take up one less space than IS DHS.
Add to that, that every piece of Clan equipment is BOTH lighter and smaller, and voíla! You can fit entire IS mechs into the free tonnage of some Clan Heavies.

I think critspace is the IS's biggest weaknes. If you want decent weight to work with, you have to use up a considerable amount of your available slots just on the upgrades, without putting any equipment in yet.
And even with IS weapons (lasers mostly) running cooler than their Clan counterparts, you are very limited on the number of DHS you can put into there. Don't think you can get anywhere near as many DHS on any given IS mech as you can on comparable Clan mechs with the same loadout. Don't know how much that is reflected by heat management on both sides though, I may be on about nothing here.

Edited by FunkyT, 15 July 2017 - 12:36 PM.

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

Gentleman Reaper, on 15 July 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

You should check out the Outreach HPG Reddit right now, they're acting like the Gauss/PPC nerf is the end of the world, and that somehow Gauss/laser combos will become more powerful than they were before.

FunkyT, on 15 July 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

And yet again, no support for your claim.

What is this bigger picture you're talking about? Tell me what I'm not seeing, tell me where I'm wrong!
I'm willing to accept your point if you just manage to convince me.

I can't take you in any way serious if you never explain anything and just keep saying "No, wrong!".


I'm not saying it's fun to get melted by long range laser alphas from outside your own nominal fighting distance, but you at least get a chance to return fire, even if it's just scratching them. It telegraphs to them, that you are approaching fighting distance and that they cannot stay there the entire game and keep peeking without consequences.
With Gauss/PPC, you just don't have that. Their exposure is so short, that your lasers will barely do all their damage and most other projectile weapons won't even reach them in time, factoring reaction time into the equation.

So going from Gauss/PPC to Gauss/Laser may not reduce the TTK, but it will reduce the frustration of facing mechs that you cannot do anything against, and can't in any way interact with.


So that's my point.
Now's your turn. Please go ahead, convince me of yours and point out my mistakes and oversights.

Three things, one shots fired, two open a bag of salt, the forum trolls and min/maxxers are qqing, three quick pgi nerf some more stuff so I can see more omfg liek gimmeh mah refundz naos or I'll cry about 15$. Hot damn this is better than pay per view @15$ >_> see what I did there :3

[Jman5]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

I actually have more fun with other builds. But frankly I dont see how you justify this when the combo was at a state where alternative loadouts are actually out performing ppc gauss in the majority of situations. People keep forgetting that aside from the Night Gyr, PPC Gauss isnt even the go to...



Well its pretty silly when other loadouts are outperforming it more often than not. So... less variety. And yeah, with ER MLs reaching out to 800 again those loadouts are going to get better.

You keep saying that the PPC/Gauss Combo are under performing, but PGI says the exact opposite:

Quote

For some time now, Gauss/PPC combinations have skewed much higher than nearly every other weapon combination when it came to pure pinpoint damage and kill potential. As a result, we've had to balance all Gauss and PPC weaponry changes around that combination, rather than what was best for the weapons individually. This was a mentality we carried with us into the New Tech PTS testing, attempting to preserve the weapon combo. That testing showed the various Gauss/PPC combinations provided with the release of new tech reliably outperformed nearly everything else on the PTS; when taken outside the combinations however, the individual weapons vastly under-performed from where we wanted them to be.

Laserboats do tend to do a lot of damage. They generally have larger alphas, but they are much less accurate. You wind up having to do more damage for less results than the PPC/Gauss combo that is much better at keeping damage on fewer components.

I took a look at my stats because I was curious about this. I couldn't just use the "hit" stat because it counts lasers as hit even if only .00001 damage hit the mech. It also doesn't take into account hits past optimal range. So I figured out how much damage I did per fired. Then saw what percent of damage I did out of the potential full damage. AC/20 = 20, Gauss = 15, etc. Basically I made an efficiency stat.

At the top of the chart was my Streak SRM 2 and Streak SRM 6. (SHOCKER)

However in third place, was my Gauss Rifle.

[Khalcruth]

FunkyT, on 15 July 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

Weight and Critspace. That's pretty much all of it. And it makes a world of difference.

Don't forget the ridiculously high numbers of hardpoints, and being able to swap around torsos and such to make truly insane hardpoint combinations.

[Dee Eight]

ThiefofAlways, on 15 July 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

If you want balance then everyone play one side or the other.

The only way to have given true faction vs faction balance was to have done what MW4:Mercs did, and allowed mixed tech as the game progressed. Oh sure you might have an atlas (an IS mech)... but fitted with clan weapons and tech it became a lot more fun to play, and a lot more deadly. Also since MW4:Mercs led up to the jihad events... and even had a teaser of that as its end-game post credits... then this property we play now, should have basically started from there. There's tabletop history to the jihad period but never been a game based upon it. The Wizkids mechwarrior clix game jumped the timeline ahead to the early 32nd century by which time the mixing of tech was quite common, even among production mechs (take the Atlas 3s for example), and the TRO's had it also still in that new clan mechs were being build that still mixed star league era technology (so inner sphere) with clan technology. We actually DO have that in this game with the Clan Battlemechs (kodiak, supernova, arctic wolf and mad cat Mk2 and all the IIC mechs) with the ability to use cheaper standard engines, single heat sinks, standard structures and armor in those mechs. But the IS side isn't allowed to pay more for the clan tech stuff if they wanted to use it.

[Lupis Volk]

Draconis Luthien, on 15 July 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

Awesome.

to the clanners:

"STOP CRYING LOL"

^ That's what was clanners saying to IS players.

Lemme fix that for ya dezgra.

"Stop crying lol, git gud, use your quirks and play smart and abuse your ubermench defensive quirks. Oh and something, something neg quirks on timby something, something"

I think that's what you were meant to put across.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 15 July 2017 - 01:02 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

That might be a point if everyone complaining about the nerf were not perfectly comfortable in laser vomit or dakka/ppc loadouts or ERLL loadouts..

Is there anything in life that everyone is comfortable with? It is pretty safe to assume that everyone who is complaining do not even agree on what the problem is.

Lupis Volk, on 15 July 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

Lemme fix that for ya dezgra.

"Stop crying lol, git gud, use your quirks and play smart and abuse your ubermench defensive quirks."

I think that's what you were meant to put across.

I have not touched my Clan Mechs for about a week now and I can definitely say that my IS Mechs run much cooler, are more maneuverable than Clan Mechs and they really do not have that much of a range disadvantage.

[Saber Avalon]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 July 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

I love all of these notes, except for one thing.

You all already have a great Clan Nova Cat logo in the decal. So... what's with the bat?

This is not a Nova Cat....




This, however, is, and you already have the graphic in the decals. o_0



Like... the new logo looks more like a bat than a cat. Why would you all deviate from the art you already have in game, so badly? Like, what is even going on with its eyes?!

Edit:

I am not even joking when I say it disturbs me to look at that new logo.

Oh great, this **** again. We already fought with PGI over changing the logos before, why the hell are they making the same mistake AGAIN?!

Also, why was Diamond Shark not included? It was the third clan to join the invasion, along with Nova Cats and Steel Vipers. The Mad Cat MKII even has shark livery!

From sarna: "As a consolation prize, both the Nova Cats and Diamond Sharks called for and won Trials of Refusal for the right to be "next in line" should additional Clans be required." They were in line to join before the Steel Vipers in lore even.

Edited by Saber Avalon, 15 July 2017 - 01:13 PM.