107 replies to this topic

[sceii]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

Again, where did I disagree with them being better than they used to be?


No it's not, this is the ATM argument all over again, it is about the advantages of something being negligible over something that has longer range because of how important range can be. Part of the problem is lack of synergy with any other weapon and inability to boat them like you used to be able to boat cSPLs. Honestly though they need to stop nerfing the damage per shot on them, if they did their old damage of 8 but had their heat just decreased appropriately (to 5.33) instead of the initial change they made, I wouldn't be arguing right now.


Both the Gargoyle and Nova had the same agility post skill tree, just like they did before the skill tree. The moment they killed cSPLs is the day they killed brawling assaults because the Gargoyle relied on the power of those cSPLs.

Brawl with warhawk, mad, executioner or highlander, use lbx20/uac10 and srms.

[sceii]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

I dont think the CMPL is much worse than the CSPL used to be.

Its 7 damage for 4.75 heat with twice the effective range vs 6 damage for 3 heat with half the effective range

So its 1.25 extra heat but also twice the range. thats not so bad.

Really whats killing assault brawlers like the gargoyle/executioner now is the locked jumpjets. If they could free up that tonnage for the heavier medium pulses theyd be fine.

So it probably is time to bring up unlocking jumpjets on omnis again... you should not be forced to take locked equipment if said locked equipment is effectively useless.

0.9 vs 0.75 duration
1.5 vs 2 heat efficiency
2ton vs 1 ton
But you get double effective range, not very useful for brawling but really nice.
Not THAT worse then cspl but still worse.
And we also live in world, where cspl have less heat efficiecncy then cmpl. Heat efficiency is key in brawl, there's no reason to run spl now.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

I dont think the CMPL is much worse than the CSPL used to be.

It is, for 12 tons, I could mount weapons that allowed me to do 1-2 punches of 36 damage with an unmatched heat efficacy (2 damage per 1 point of heat). For 12 tons of cMPLs, I get 42 damage per punch for an ok heat efficacy (roughly 1.5 damage per 1 point of heat). So I lost the ability to just burst damage and I lose heat efficacy. I do gain range but that inability to do that burst damage is HUGE because that is what allows them to bridge the damage done gap quickly.

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

Really whats killing assault brawlers like the gargoyle/executioner now is the locked jumpjets.

The Gargoyle doesn't have locked JJs.....just a large locked engine.

sceii, on 17 July 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

Brawl with warhawk, mad, executioner or highlander, use lbx20/uac10 and srms.

None of those are meta brawlers, the last meta brawling assault was the Gargoyle. The Executioner should also be a laser boat as it doesn't have the tonnage to use ballistics AND missiles and be useful. The Highlander is too slow. The Warhawk can't mount an effective payload because too much space is locked up or it ends up running too hot of a build. The Scorch is probably the closest thing the Clans have to a suitable brawler and it is either too slow or is too asym. The Cyclops is probably the best options for a brawling assault, and honestly I'm not too impressed with it.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 11:32 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

0.9 vs 0.75 duration

but its 7 damage not 6.

so the damage per tick is almost exactly the same

Quote

1.5 vs 2 heat efficiency

but twice the range, so its not like youre getting nothing for the extra heat.

Quote

2ton vs 1 ton

which is why locked equipment is the problem on the gargoyle/executioner. that tonnage needs to be freed up to make use of the heavier MPLs.

Quote

I do gain range but that inability to do that burst damage is HUGE because that is what allows them to bridge the damage done gap quickly.

So you have to use the extra range to soften your target up a bit first. Thats not a big deal.

The only real issue is the extra tonnage the MPLs weigh. Which is problematic because of locked equipment.

If the executioner didnt have 8 tons of locked JJs it would be perfectly serviceable as an assault brawler.

or of the gargoyle could take a lighter engine like a 375 instead of a 400. paying for that 400 kills it.

I mean i think weve reach the point where omnis have to change because battlemech construction rules completely surpass them

Edited by Khobai, 17 July 2017 - 11:49 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

So you have to use the extra range to soften your target up a bit first. Thats not a big deal.

Not enough extra range to overcome the loss of burst damage, keep in mind as well that the Marauder IIC is able to get pretty close to the same speed as a XL 375 Gargoyle with similar free tonnage and it isn't used for that for a reason.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 12:00 PM.

[sceii]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

It is, for 12 tons, I could mount weapons that allowed me to do 1-2 punches of 36 damage with an unmatched heat efficacy (2 damage per 1 point of heat). For 12 tons of cMPLs, I get 42 damage per punch for an ok heat efficacy (roughly 1.5 damage per 1 point of heat). So I lost the ability to just burst damage and I lose heat efficacy. I do gain range but that inability to do that burst damage is HUGE because that is what allows them to bridge the damage done gap quickly.


The Gargoyle doesn't have locked JJs.....just a large locked engine.


None of those are meta brawlers, the last meta brawling assault was the Gargoyle. The Executioner should also be a laser boat as it doesn't have the tonnage to use ballistics AND missiles and be useful. The Highlander is too slow. The Warhawk can't mount an effective payload because too much space is locked up or it ends up running too hot of a build. The Scorch is probably the closest thing the Clans have to a suitable brawler and it is either too slow or is too asym. The Cyclops is probably the best options for a brawling assault, and honestly I'm not too impressed with it.

We live in time when you need to find meta, everything change very fast, you need time to find best options.
WHK can mount 3srm6+2uac10(with sweet jam chance quirk), good dps and punch power.
Highlander can mount lbx20+4asrm6+some lasers.
With execitioner you can run lasers and some missles.

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

So you have to use the extra range to soften your target up a bit first. Thats not a big deal.

I do a lot of brawling for few years. Best brawler tactic is to surprise your enemy when he is ALREADY using his med/long range guns, so you have much more spare heat with more heat effective weapons then him, you will end duel with minor spread damge before enemy waits for his heat or cooldowns to go off.

[Khobai]

Quote

Not enough extra range to overcome the loss of burst damage, keep in mind as well that the Marauder IIC is able to get pretty close to the same speed as a XL 375 Gargoyle with similar free tonnage and it isn't used for that for a reason.

Wasnt used for that reason. Youre still making pre-patch assumptions in a discussion about the post-patch meta.

The CMPL is a serious gamechanger and will change how clan players build their mechs.

The patch is going to radically change the dynamic of the game. I think you will see more brawling oriented mechs now. Because of how the stats on a lot of the weapons have changed. It creates more possibilities for brawling. And im still certain were going to see CGauss get nerfed somehow, it just hasnt happened yet.

Edited by Khobai, 17 July 2017 - 12:17 PM.

[sceii]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

will change

Now will, it already changed it, you have minimum of 2 cmpl boats per game, and they usually perform well.
Yet again same players used cerml/cpl before this patch. Thair life did not get better, they had to adapt to new patch and use cmpl instead of cspl/erml.
Now timbie is good again, ebj is very good too, mad is good. They all can boat cmpl well and slice components in two salvos.
After new patch we will adapt again and find one more min max weapon, it will probably be cmpl for clams again.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

Wasnt used for that reason. Youre still making pre-patch assumptions in a discussion about the post-patch meta.

This patch is a nerf for cMPLs......

• Losing damage per tick
  
• Losing damage per shot
  
• Losing heat efficacy

So if they aren't used for it now, why in the world would they be used in that manor post patch?

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

I think you will see more brawling oriented mechs now.

If you didn't see them before, you won't see them now. The Night Gyr was the only Gauss/PPC build still running around, everything else was either cERPPC spam (which just got a bit more lethal) or laser vomit (which just got better now that cERMLs have more range). Now that said, push decks composed of cMPLs and ATMs could potentially be more of a thing.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 12:20 PM.

[sceii]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

This patch is a nerf for cMPLs......

• Losing damage per tick
  
• Losing damage per shot
  
• Losing heat efficacy

So if they aren't used for it now, why in the world would they be used in that manor post patch?

Alternative lasers lost a bit of power too (well, cspl got a bit buffed, may become useful again as secondary weapon group of six)
Prepare you HMG and SRMs.

[Khobai]

Quote

This patch is a nerf for cMPLs......

Except it was a nerf for a lot of other things too

CMPL are still in a great place

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

Except it was a nerf for a lot of other things too

None of my current meta stable were nerfed (Night Gyr is probably the only one), in fact most of them got better, especially my assaults since Night Gyrs were a major thorn for assaults.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

None of my current meta stable were nerfed (Night Gyr is probably the only one), in fact most of them got better (especially my assaults since Night Gyrs were a major thorn for assaults).

I am fairly certain a clan gauss nerf is incoming though.

if PGIs sole focus right now is balancing IS vs clan tech they simply cant allow clans to have a gauss thats 3 tons lighter with no real downside.

I wouldnt be surprised if clan gauss gets nerfed to like 12 damage but fires 20% faster than IS gauss. Maybe also with an increase in range/velocity. Putting it somewhere in between a light gauss and standard gauss.

Edited by Khobai, 17 July 2017 - 12:28 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

I am fairly certain a clan gauss nerf is incoming though.

Again, outside of the Night Gyr, none of the typical mechs I used are touched. SVN/WHK/MAD-IIC are all unaffected because I don't use Gauss on any of the builds and a few of these got better due to various changes (cERML range buff and WHK cERPPC velocity buffs). HBK-IIC doesn't ever use Gauss so the typical medium remains untouched, and of course lights don't use Clan Gauss so those aren't touched either.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 12:28 PM.

[panzer1b]

I see both as useable, albeit my personal preference (pug quenue at least) is the cERML. Looking at raw stats the cMPL exceeds the ERML in DMG/HEAT only under 380m (without range skills), and it has the advantage of shorter burn time as well as better heat efficiency and DPS. The ERML has range (obviously) and is very hot running but is also half the weight which allows you to bring more DHS on the clan mech. In actuality, if you put all the spare tonnage into DHS the ERML and the MPL have very similar sustained fire capabilities so it comes down to the choice of low burn duration at a longer range or short duration up close.

Now my experience may not be the same as everyone, but i find that the vast majority of gameplay and maps favor engaging at ~500-600m for clan mechs for a few reasons. One, below 400m almost every single IS energy weapon is effective (ppcs may as well be hitscan at these ranges, MLs do almost full dmg, LPLs do full dmg, ect. Being physically capable of fighting outside of 500m (which the ERML is more then capable of doing) is a huge deal since you remain safe from ALL dedicated brawlers and most viable IS weapons loose their effectiveness at least partially (even the IS ERML isnt gonna be all that great at 500-600m). This is ofc due to the fact that clan mechs for the most part are sub=par at short range and will be evicerated by any good short range IS mech so it makes little tactical sense to play the IS game with a clan mech. Two, not that many maps force a brawl and if you position correctly relative to the team and enemy it is not difficult to stay between 500-600m from the enemy. Finally, outside of coordination/FW, there is no way to really get a team to push in a coordinated manner, and having the ability to play mid range is better then having no ability to engage the enemy if your team suddenly goes chikin mode and everyone goes crying under a rock and refuses to close the distance.

Basically for me, the choice between ERML and MPL comes down to 4 things. Is the mech going to rely on lasers as its primary damage dealing weapons. Can my mech physically fit a package of 5-6 with enough heatsinks to keep them running during a extended fight. Do i have a mech that can reliably get into/out of brawling range (closer then 400m) without dying before its able to do its share of dmg on the vast majority of maps. And finally am i playing as part of a coordinated unit/group that is going to do a agressive push strat or not. If i answered yes to 3 of these or more then i generally go with MPLs over ERMLs combo. If i answered no to 3 or more then i almost always go with ERMLs. If i answered no to the first question i never bring MPLs since they take up too much tonnage to be a secondary weapons for something thats running ballistics or missiles and having ~4 ERMLs is almost alwasy a better backup then ~2 MPLs if im short on tons and want a laser package i can use for either emergencies or to boost my other weapon's alfa strike potential.

Due to my playstyle i tend to graviate towards ERMLs (i dont play very many pure energy boats as i find that playstyle a little boring and too easy, and there isnt enough tonnage to combine uacs/gauss with MPLs not to mention the obvious range disparity between them). That and i generally dont do brawling in this game since every time i take out a dedicated short range mech i just get screwed over by either map choice or teams that refuse to push up and properly cover and support the brawlers. MPLs have their useage, but i still dont see myself using them on anything but a few niche builds or when i just dont feel like playing the whole mid range meta that seems to be all over the pug quenue and dont mind dying horribly once in a while. because of that, I have 2 mechs right now i occasionally use MPLs on, SCR and HBR and thats about it, mechs i yused to have but sold off that used MPLs were the LBK and the IFR but those 2 mechs were just too niche for my tastes...

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 17 July 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

I dont think the CMPL is much worse than the CSPL used to be.

Its 7 damage for 4.75 heat with twice the effective range vs 6 damage for 3 heat with half the effective range

So its 1.25 extra heat but also twice the range. thats not so bad.

Really whats killing assault brawlers like the gargoyle/executioner now is the locked jumpjets. If they could free up that tonnage for the heavier medium pulses theyd be fine.

So it probably is time to bring up unlocking jumpjets on omnis again... you should not be forced to take locked equipment if said locked equipment is effectively useless.

yes the new changes hurt all mechs with low tonnage to utilise the c-mpl's and ther eis not good heat efficient inbetween thats not so heavy on the clan side.

gargoyle, exceutioner, Nova, all the other 40- tonners of the clans they lack the ability ot use a proper punch with lasers and can't utilise ammo dependend weapons well. they are now, go SPL's with really crappy range or CERML with real crappy heat efficiency. or go MPL and have nearly no punch due to lack of tonnage. Not a good change at all in my opinion. there is a huge utility gap for many clanmechs now. Sure stuff like SNV doesn't care they have enough tonnage for MPL's and can rock the battlefield, but that doesn't feels balanced in my opinion.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

This patch is a nerf for cMPLs......

• Losing damage per tick
  
• Losing damage per shot
  
• Losing heat efficacy

So if they aren't used for it now, why in the world would they be used in that manor post patch?



If you didn't see them before, you won't see them now. The Night Gyr was the only Gauss/PPC build still running around, everything else was either cERPPC spam (which just got a bit more lethal) or laser vomit (which just got better now that cERMLs have more range). Now that said, push decks composed of cMPLs and ATMs could potentially be more of a thing.

because other lasers were nerfed as well and now ther eis a new comparison chart between them. and in this new environment c-mpls are pretty good compared to the other ones available. mostly because of the other lasers having crappy beam durations or bad heat efficiencies.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 July 2017 - 12:54 AM.

[Colonel ONeill]

2nd nerf in a row to MPL. Weapon might be dead. Only the Night Gyr got more consecutive nerfs.

MPL have never been that great, but quite fun. VERY situational and usually outclassed by either longer or shorter ranged weapons.

[Shifty McSwift]

Colonel ONeill, on 18 July 2017 - 01:30 AM, said:

2nd nerf in a row to MPL. Weapon might be dead.

Take off your specificity spectacles, it also had its heat cost and burn time reduced and its cooldown buffed... In other words, it didn't get nerfed that first time at all.

[Colonel ONeill]

Shifty McSwift, on 18 July 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

it didn't get nerfed that first time at all.

Performing worse than before is in my eyes a nerf. Still usable for sure, but just not as good as before.

I think this is a good example of balancing through spreadsheet. Might look good on paper, but not in the game. MPL have not been used a lot, and you might see them even less now. If I got it right, they lost 1dmg in two months. And have in mind you usually stack 6 of them, so you end up with 6dmg less. The heat of clan weapons is no real issue since the skilltree, and you can pack two coolshots as well.

Edited by Colonel ONeill, 18 July 2017 - 02:11 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Colonel ONeill, on 18 July 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

Performing worse than before is in my eyes a nerf. Still usable for sure, but just not as good as before.

It's not performing worse, those MPL changes didn't come alone, when you consider the other laser changes at the same time (as well as the way the weapon itself changed, which again wasn't a nerf), it still got better in the performance category by comparison too.