107 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

That doesn't matter when your effective range for shooting that is nearly a third of the other. Yes the duration/heat is increased since the old days, doesn't mean that it won't be as effective because a lot of things have been nerfed since then.

I'd argue on quite a few of the maps, the extra range is largely wasted, anyways. It's why I've favored MPLas for some time, now. Unless you skyline yourself, you won't make good use of 800m range lasers on HPG, Mining Collective, Veridian Bog, River City, and most of the typical engagement zones in Tourmaline Desert or Canyon Network. There are maps where you can take advantage of it, for sure, but beyond around 500 meters of range, range starts to become less and less useful.

[Shifty McSwift]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

That doesn't matter when your effective range for shooting that is nearly a third of the other. Yes the duration/heat is increased since the old days, doesn't mean that it won't be as effective because a lot of things have been nerfed since then.

Yes, but even a small increase in burn duration makes a big difference for twisting/spreading damage, and armor/structure rates have generally come up with the skill tree, while having more synergy now the combo is weaker than it was, and might not feel as strong in play as it once did, though it will still work very nicely to cut down short range brawlers doing silly things etc, so for sure it will still get usage, it is a good combo. Plus it is lighter, so mechs who need the weight for sinks will surely prefer it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

HPG, Mining Collective, Veridian Bog, River City, and most of the typical engagement zones in Tourmaline Desert or Canyon Network.

Wat.

• Canyon is definitely a map where you can make use of it, as it has always favored control setups because it can be hard to push against a well setup team.
  
• HPG is definitely a mid-long sort of map so again, that extra range is nice, especially when having to deal with Night Gyrs on a wall.
  
• River City is a flexible map, but generally favors mid-long so again, that extra range makes a difference in being able to.
  
• Tourmaline depends a bit on the setup but it has traditionally been a longer ranged map (outside the dakka push days) so the extra range is pretty huge here.
  
• Mining is more flexible than people realize, especially if teams effectively use vertical spots to keep from getting caught out, you can play the range game pretty well if you can utilize that. Depends on the mode though as Domination still favors shorter ranged engagements.

That just leaves Viridian Bog as really the goto short range map, and even that I'm skeptical of when played correctly.

Now this might all change if the Night Gyr is removed from usage by the Gauss/PPC desync, but that might just get replaced by this laser vomit.

Shifty McSwift, on 17 July 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

Yes, but even a small increase in burn duration makes a big difference for twisting/spreading damage, and armor/structure rates have generally come up with the skill tree, while having more synergy now the combo is weaker than it was,

Need I remind you that before the laser rebalance, cERML/cLPL was the goto laser vomit build (and it was strong, both the Ebjag and Mad IIC used it). Yes the extra burn duration hurts a little bit, but it having reduced range also hurt it, and one of those just got reverted.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 09:28 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

Except I think you missed the part where cERMLs just got their max range back. I didn't see pulse get the same thing. In other words cLPL/cERML boats just got better.

I still think they are making some really bad balance changes but I guess at least they are actually iterating for once?

Yeah, slightly different role there. That heat efficiency is pretty nice for more push oriented gameplay. For poking, with the extra range ER MLs will be better.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

Wat.

• Canyon is definitely a map where you can make use of it, as it has always favored control setups because it can be hard to push against a well setup team.
  
• HPG is definitely a mid-long sort of map so again, that extra range is nice, especially when having to deal with Night Gyrs on a wall.
  
• River City is a flexible map, but generally favors mid-long so again, that extra range makes a difference in being able to.
  
• Tourmaline depends a bit on the setup but it has traditionally been a longer ranged map (outside the dakka push days) so the extra range is pretty huge here.
  
• Mining is more flexible than people realize, especially if teams effectively use vertical spots to keep from getting caught out, you can play the range game pretty well if you can utilize that. Depends on the mode though as Domination still favors shorter ranged engagements.

• I never said you can't use it on Canyon, but 90% of the time it revolves around a swirly of doom in the middle, negating most benefits of long range combat for the bulk of the mechs in the fight.
  
• HPG absolutely isn't a "long" range map, though it is a medium range one, whereby pulse lasers have the advantage. The only time you have a sight line longer than 400 meters is if either you're on the wall sniping in, or both you and the enemy are on the same side of the platform, but on opposite ends of the bowl. That's a highly restricted circumstance, and contrary to the usual close to medium range rotationfest that happens.
  
• River City is flexible, yes. However, most games, again, devolve into a fight around the citadel. This means, again, close to mid range combat. The exception is if both teams insist on keeping range on either side of the river, but that is a minority situation, outside of the first 2-3 minutes of engagement period. After the initial poke, it almost always turns into a brawl.
  
• Tourmaline generally turns into one of three fights. Fight one involves people blasting at each other on either side of the rocks under the ring, at engagement ranges of sub-500. Fight two involves a flank around the raised enclave via the back door direction, with LOS largely limited against those in dug in positions, forcing a closer ranged engagement - though there is the opportunity to shoot at mechs waaay in the back of the flank at 700 meters or so. Fight three is far less common, and involves a team intentionally keeping distance off to one side, and would heavily favor longer ranged firepower, but this is such an unusual occurrence on the map as to be a nonfactor.
  
• Mining is extremely flexible, however the bulk of combat on this map does take place within 400-500 meters. You could skyline and hop onto a building, and there are a few mechs that can do that well, but at most you're still looking at a 700 range cap, and doing so with a very high risk/high reward position to reach across the map and blast someone.

Further, depending on how the team moves, and the game mode, even maps like frozen city can be turned into a knife fight easily enough. Though usual potatoes try and long range poke, regardless. It's why I am confused by people saying the game is so heavily in favor of long range snipefests and horrible to brawlers. Polar Highlands is annoying to brawl with. Alpine Peaks is annoying to brawl with. Virtually every single other map can easily be turned into a close range fight.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 July 2017 - 09:43 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

That doesn't matter when your effective range for shooting that is nearly a 3/4s of the other (cMPL/cLPL alphas have an optimal of 330 but probably not worth it past 450 where as the optimal of cERML/cLPL alphas are 400 but not worth it past 600). Yes the duration/heat is increased since the old days, doesn't mean that it won't be as effective because a lot of things have been nerfed since then. All I'm saying is you will see cERML/cLPL boats more than cMPL/cLPL boats because of that range limitation.

I would happily have stayed with the erML 688 max range with the lower heat and shorter duration, shorter cooldown. Cooldown now the same as the erLL? Why?

I do not see many pulse boats that mix the cMPL and the cLPL. Most go all in with the cMPL and give up the range for perfect synergy. I run several builds with "Mini" laser vomit which pair cMPL with cerSL. The synergy there was pretty good prior to all the energy changes in the last patch and this one but I will have to retest to see where it is at after all these changes. I think cMPL will still be OK after these consecutive adjustments but they will not be as good as they were a couple months ago.

Edited by Rampage, 17 July 2017 - 09:45 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

That heat efficiency is pretty nice for more push oriented gameplay.

You aren't actually gaining that much heat efficiency though, the cERML is already limited on how often it can fire because it has a full 5 sec recycle time (1.25 dur + 3.75 cooldown) so that heat has time to be burned off by the extra DHS.

Just did some math, and comparing the numbers for a Mad IIC running an XL 375 (one with ES, cMPLs, and cLPLs and the other with cERMLs, cLPLs, and 3 extra DHS) and the DPS for alphas barely differs (cLPLs limit the refire on cMPLs for alphas whereas the cERMLs limit cLPL refires for alphas). There is ~0.1 difference between the two, meaning that the only real difference, is range and duration (you trade range for a shorter duration, which imo is not worth it for most maps).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

PUG play stuff

Why are we comparing PUG play? PUG play will always be middle of the road because of the coordination required to pull off the extremes (ERLL play or actual brawling)? That seems rather asinine.

Rampage, on 17 July 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

I do not see many pulse boats that mix the cMPL and the cLPL. Most go all in with the cMPL and give up the range for perfect synergy.

Those mechs also lose out on the ability to concentrate firepower on a single panel which is why you mix in cLPLs once you have 6 cMPLs. Volley firing cMPLs at short-mid range is bad.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

You aren't actually gaining that much heat efficiency though, the cERML is already limited on how often it can fire because it has a full 5 sec recycle time (1.25 dur + 3.75 cooldown) so that heat has time to be burned off by the extra DHS.

Just did some math, and comparing the numbers for a Mad IIC running an XL 375 (one with ES, cMPLs, and cLPLs and the other with cERMLs, cLPLs, and 3 extra DHS) and the DPS for alphas barely differs (cLPLs limit the refire on cMPLs for alphas whereas the cERMLs limit cLPL refires for alphas). There is ~0.1 difference between the two, meaning that the only real difference, is range and duration (you trade range for a shorter duration, which imo is not worth it for most maps).

Hm. Well in practice (over the course of like 3 games) I found a follow-up salvo of 6 MPLs to finish the target off was pretty nice because it came up pretty quick. But... solo queue is solo queue.

Don't get me wrong, I have always gravitated towards the ER MLs for the combo. Perhaps for a smaller faster mech 6 MPLs would be good option, given the shorter cooldown and lower heat.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

Why are we comparing PUG play? PUG play will always be middle of the road because of the coordination required to pull off the extremes (ERLL play or actual brawling)? That seems rather asinine.

Because, like it or not, PUG play accounts for the vast majority of the gameplay in this game. Ignoring that seems rather asinine, no? In organized fights? I rather go full brawl, anyways, and can and will make it work on almost all the maps. There are clear approaches on most maps for a brawl.

Outside of Polar Highlands, and potentially the Canyon one, most of the CW maps even support brawl range engagements heavily, as well.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 July 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

Perhaps for a smaller faster mech 6 MPLs would be good option, given the shorter cooldown and lower heat.

The problem is finding that mech, the only thing I can really think of is the LBK and SCR. The HBK-IIC-A is probably better off with the full poke setup because it is somewhat squishy and can hit harder with the full laser vomit since it has so much free tonnage even with max engine.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Because, like it or not, PUG play accounts for the vast majority of the gameplay in this game.

That doesn't mean much though now does it? I mean it took over 8 months for PUGs to realize the strength of PPC/Gauss over laser vomit (and during that entire time laser vomit was continually nerfed, because "statistics"). Don't balance by potato or you just chase the tail of the meta and end up nerfing things that are inconsequential in the long run.

Balancing based on people not playing mechs to the height of their ability, not using maps to their best potential, etc, just seems like a recipe for a mess of balance because PUGs themselves are a mess. PUGs will always be a crap shoot, because mech/weapon balance matters less than team cohesion, team composition, and pilot skill (which all vary wildly between each match) so again, balancing based purely on PUGs seems asinine rather than a few scenarios (things that improve drastically when cohesion differences are stark, like LRMs and harassers).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 10:03 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Because, like it or not, PUG play accounts for the vast majority of the gameplay in this game. Ignoring that seems rather asinine, no? In organized fights? I rather go full brawl, anyways, and can and will make it work on almost all the maps. There are clear approaches on most maps for a brawl.

Outside of Polar Highlands, and potentially the Canyon one, most of the CW maps even support brawl range engagements heavily, as well.

If that's the case why were you so worried about PPC Gauss which is virtually non-existent in pug play?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

That doesn't mean much though now does it? I mean it took over 8 months for PUGs to realize the strength of PPC/Gauss over laser vomit (and during that entire time laser vomit was continually nerfed, because "statistics"). Don't balance by potato or you just chase the tail of the meta and end up nerfing things that are inconsequential in the long run.

What's ironic is now its going the other way lololol

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

That doesn't mean much though now does it? I mean it took over 8 months for PUGs to realize the strength of PPC/Gauss over laser vomit (and during that entire time laser vomit was continually nerfed, because "statistics"). Don't balance by potato or you just chase the tail of the meta and end up nerfing things that are inconsequential in the long run.

You can play with the long range lasers all you want. If you plopped that down in a PUG environment, you'd still, regardless of how you expect the game to play in organized settings, be stuck with more range than you need. The environment plays differently. Just because the range works in 10% of the matches doesn't mean you can force the majority of players to make it work as effectively as other options in the other 90%.

There's no reason to be bullheaded about it. If you're in a PUG match environment, bring the tools that best match the circumstance. In organized play, yes, the ERMLas with 800m range may be better. However, for the majority of the games that will be played, the shorter range of the MPLas will be a virtual nonfactor.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

The problem is finding that mech, the only thing I can really think of is the LBK and SCR. The HBK-IIC-A is probably better off with the full poke setup because it is somewhat squishy and can hit harder with the full laser vomit since it has so much free tonnage even with max engine.

Lights maybe? How many MPLs can the Cougar fit? 8? lol

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 July 2017 - 10:04 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

If that's the case why were you so worried about PPC Gauss which is virtually non-existent in pug play?

I'm not. However, when Gauss/PPC was the meta, it was rather unfun for a hell of a lot of players. Just because it is an option doesn't mean it is a good option to have. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. For the sake of the enjoyment of the game for a majority of players, I think it is a healthy direction. It also frees up the PPC and Gauss to be independently balanced, as opposed to being balanced in relation to one another.

Quite frankly, you being up in arms over PPC/Gauss still comes across as extremely fishy, considering you don't use it. Supposedly. And that argument of options? Your own argument for it being unused kind of works against it. A lack of a nonoption is not a lack of an option, now is it?

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 July 2017 - 10:06 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

Those mechs also lose out on the ability to concentrate firepower on a single panel which is why you mix in cLPLs once you have 6 cMPLs. Volley firing cMPLs at short-mid range is bad.

Perhaps we are talking about different weight classes. I think you are talking Assault (like MAD IIC). I am talking more about Heavies and Mediums because that is where I live. The Mechs I use tend to max out a 6 cMPL.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 July 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

Lights maybe? How many MPLs can the Cougar fit? 8? lol

Cougar is DOA as far as I'm concerned too slow and too wide (seriously, its wider than the Adder and the Adder has bad hitboxes already).

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Just because it is an option doesn't mean it is a good option to have.

They are both long range weapons, allowing for them to be combined adds to the variety at that range, otherwise you are just back to boating. This solution is still circumventing the real problem as well (that Gauss has no heat), because next thing you know Gauss + Lasers will be the thing again, almost like we have been down this road before........

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Quite frankly, you being up in arms over PPC/Gauss still comes across as extremely fishy, considering you don't use it.

Why is it fishy that he wants PPC/Gauss to actually remain a thing in comp rather than be nerfed out of existence all over again?

Rampage, on 17 July 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Perhaps we are talking about different weight classes. I think you are talking Assault (like MAD IIC). I am talking more about Heavies and Mediums because that is where I live. The Mechs I use tend to max out a 6 cMPL.

Then you are talking just mediums since most Clan heavies outside of the Linebacker should have more than just 6 cMPLs. Hell, a good chunk of the Clan mediums should either be mounting more than that or can't even mount that many.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 July 2017 - 10:09 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 July 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

I'm not. However, when Gauss/PPC was the meta, it was rather unfun for a hell of a lot of players. Just because it is an option doesn't mean it is a good option to have. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. For the sake of the enjoyment of the game for a majority of players, I think it is a healthy direction. It also frees up the PPC and Gauss to be independently balanced, as opposed to being balanced in relation to one another.

Well, cERPPC didn't need a buff. IS ER PPC could use a buff, and IS ER PPC-Gauss hasn't been an issue for years. So I don't see how the combo was limiting independent balancing.

[Asym]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 July 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

Wat.

• Canyon is definitely a map where you can make use of it, as it has always favored control setups because it can be hard to push against a well setup team.
  
• HPG is definitely a mid-long sort of map so again, that extra range is nice, especially when having to deal with Night Gyrs on a wall.
  
• River City is a flexible map, but generally favors mid-long so again, that extra range makes a difference in being able to.
  
• Tourmaline depends a bit on the setup but it has traditionally been a longer ranged map (outside the dakka push days) so the extra range is pretty huge here.
  
• Mining is more flexible than people realize, especially if teams effectively use vertical spots to keep from getting caught out, you can play the range game pretty well if you can utilize that. Depends on the mode though as Domination still favors shorter ranged engagements.

That just leaves Viridian Bog as really the goto short range map, and even that I'm skeptical of when played correctly.

Now this might all change if the Night Gyr is removed from usage by the Gauss/PPC desync, but that might just get replaced by this laser vomit.


Need I remind you that before the laser rebalance, cERML/cLPL was the goto laser vomit build (and it was strong, both the Ebjag and Mad IIC used it). Yes the extra burn duration hurts a little bit, but it having reduced range also hurt it, and one of those just got reverted.

Might be removed? PGI has "retired" the Night Gyr's from any tactical value....

All of the devaluation of weapons is being done to lengthen the brawling duration window. Armor advances and weapons degrading are all designed to expand the brawling window. Brawling is where PGI is taking this game; if you haven't seen that coming you must be a player who loves to brawl. The rest of us have already left MWO or are waiting till after civil war to see if what we think is going to happens, happens.....

We want more than "Rock-and-Sock'em-Robots".....