84 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

Ew.

The fact that PGI still designs IS tech to be strictly worse than clan for no good reason is a much bigger issue than the goosepeep heatlinkage everyone is raging about, talk about misdirected energy.

I was hoping this nonsense would change with Chris, sad.

Chris did say that AFTER this release, in the early stages. I wonder though if and how much push back he is getting from Paul and Russ about it, even though it has been Russ making apologetic comments each time PGI added cXL ST penalties, mentioning that they were more so placeholders since they did not have a fully functional engine crit system in place yet.


https://mwomercs.com...d-chris-lowrey/

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The final balance point we can briefly highlight now involves Engine types. Better balance across the Standard, XL, and Clan XL Engine types is a major change that I am heavily pushing for. It's currently in the very early stages of evaluation, with gameplay and technical considerations to be made. At this time, there is no solid ETA or info I can provide, but it will definitely be something we look at addressing after the introduction of new tech.

Though I believe they should have jumped on the cXL/isXL same benefits prior to the tech introduction since there would have been not as many variables in play. Though several want to buff the STD to make it more durable before anything is lost, I believe that durability should come AFTER a ST is lost, to allow it to soak up more damage by reducing even more the transferring damage from destroyed leg, side torso or arm.

Tarl Cabot, on 03 July 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

The only buff I would give STD is when equipped, damage percentage xfer from arm/leg to side torso to CT is doubled.

Those purist is reflected in Russ/Paul stance, one of the reasons isXL current does not have the same benefits as cXL, even though there is no functional engine crit system.

• LFE - 20.0% (edited) movement-20.0% heat. It only has 25% weight savings but same amount of crit slots as cXL.
  
• cXL 20.0% movement-30% heat (only reason not at 20% is that PGI felt it needed to be 40%, but I would reduce it to 30%
  
  • The difference between the two above is that the LFE is made of heavier/denser material. Or make it the same as the cXL based on simply losing 2 engine shielding sections but it would still be less than the isXL
• isXL 25% movement-40% heat penalties.
  
• STD (Clan & IS mechs) - double the current damage reduction for incoming fire that hits destroyed arm/leg/side torso areas, which are transferred to the next location.

The STD benefit falls in the same area as the other engines.. it is not to make a side torso last longer but to allow the mech to last longer, to continue to operate AFTER a ST is destroyed. Additional structural buffs do not fit in that range, as least any structural buffs that are applied to side torsos. Reduction incoming damage that hits destroyed areas would allow that mech w/STD to better use that destroyed area as a shield, soaking up additional damage by reducing that damage even more before passing it onto the next section.

And for my energy builds, the different movement-heat penalties would make me consider using LFE over isXL. And on my mechs w/low engine caps, using the STD and benefit even more from incoming fire hitting destroyed arm, leg or ST would make it look like a better option.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 July 2017 - 07:23 PM.

[CJ Daxion]

i wanna see what happens

[Angel of Annihilation]

Deathlike, on 15 July 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

You're not playing at a high enough level to understand how comp level (or just advanced understanding) sees the value of Clans and Clan XL compared to IS tech in general. IS tech has some niches that it excels at, but overwhelmingly Clan dominance is mostly tied to Clan XL benefits (the penalties that losing a side torso does not outweigh the benefits of Clan XL, particularly when LFE inherits literally the same penalties WHILE providing less tonnage on the whole compared to Clan XL).

It's mostly a you thing.

Wow. Between Closed Beta and now I have played 6150 matches and I am Tier 1 yet you are claiming I don't have an advanced understanding of the game. That's a bit of a stretch isn't it?

Also again you guys pull out one thing and turn it into the Holy Grail of why the Clans are OP. Sure any nitwit realizes that the Clan XL has an advantage over the IS XL duh. However there are also mechs like the Bushwacker which can run an XL with pretty much the same durability as most Clan mechs can run their XL. I mean I am sure you have heard the term "XL friendly" if you have been playing for a while.

Also many of the IS mechs get tons and tons of armor and structure quirks to compensate. I mean just look at the Annihilator, 31 to CT armor, 26 to ST armor, -15% change to crit. Lets compare it against another engine cap limited mech that will only run a maximum of 48 kph, a Clan one, the Direwolf. Lets see how much extra armor it gets....hmmm.....wait.....errrr....I don't see any??? Well the Direwolf gets better firing angles right? Wait...err...umm....60 degrees for the Dire where the Annihilator gets 90 degrees. Oh gee do you think maybe the Annihilator gets all the extra armor and better torso yaw maybe to compensate for the fact that the Direwolf gets that fancy XL engine?? Did that every cross your mind. No of course not because that would be admitting that the Clans don't have an advantage and that would never do. Oh wait....forget something. The Annihilator will be getting a fancy new LFE engine that gives it pretty much the same durability advantages the Direwolf has....wait...Armor quirks, better firing arcs AND a light engine that allows you to survive a side torso loss. Gee yeah those Clan mechs, they are so superior. Gosh, Golly, Gee Wiz, why didn't I see the light before. Seriously, are you kidding me?

The straight truth is that in most cases for every advantage that the Clans have, the IS gets a counter advantage of some type and it is utterly ridiculous that so many people fail to acknowledge this fact when discussing balance.

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

Wow. Between Closed Beta and now I have played 6150 matches and I am Tier 1 yet you are claiming I don't have an advanced understanding of the game. That's a bit of a stretch isn't it?

Yes, actually.

There's actually a lot of people (including Founders) that have played the game since "the beginning" (or near it) and never really "learn" the game.

You are not the first or the last.

I know I'm only slightly above average and that's mediocre in the great scheme of things.

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Also again you guys pull out one thing and turn it into the Holy Grail of why the Clans are OP. Sure any nitwit realizes that the Clan XL has an advantage over the IS XL duh. However there are also mechs like the Bushwacker which can run an XL with pretty much the same durability as most Clan mechs can run their XL. I mean I am sure you have heard the term "XL friendly" if you have been playing for a while.

lol no. Bushwacker side coring is super easy.

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Also many of the IS mechs get tons and tons of armor and structure quirks to compensate. I mean just look at the Annihilator, 31 to CT armor, 26 to ST armor, -15% change to crit. Lets compare it against another engine cap limited mech that will only run a maximum of 48 kph, a Clan one, the Direwolf. Lets see how much extra armor it gets....hmmm.....wait.....errrr....I don't see any??? Well the Direwolf gets better firing angles right? Wait...err...umm....60 degrees for the Dire where the Annihilator gets 90 degrees. Oh gee do you think maybe the Annihilator gets all the extra armor and better torso yaw maybe to compensate for the fact that the Direwolf gets that fancy XL engine?? Did that every cross your mind. No of course not because that would be admitting that the Clans don't have an advantage and that would never do. Oh wait....forget something. The Annihilator will be getting a fancy new LFE engine that gives it pretty much the same durability advantages the Direwolf has....wait...Armor quirks, better firing arcs AND a light engine that allows you to survive a side torso loss. Gee yeah those Clan mechs, they are so superior. Gosh, Golly, Gee Wiz, why didn't I see the light before. Seriously, are you kidding me?

It's not the equivalent (quirks and other things), and you're applying false equivalency straight up. LFE does NOT have the same tonnage benefits as Clan XL. So, until they are "the same" or close enough of an equivalency/tradeoff (which they are not), they are not directly comparable from a mech building perspective.

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The straight truth is that in most cases for every advantage that the Clans have, the IS gets a counter advantage of some type and it is utterly ridiculous that so many people fail to acknowledge this fact when discussing balance.

lol it's not true at all.

Tell me a legit PPC+Gauss poptart mech on the IS side. I dare you to. Clan has a few decent options... but ZERO on the IS side due to IS XL and/or other build requirements. Try again.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 July 2017 - 08:15 PM.

[Khobai]

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See, this is what I was talking about several threads ago. You can't just keep all your proposed changes in your head and only talk about this one aspect. We can't read your mind. If you are proposing that Omnis gain the ability to swap engine types, that is something else entirely.

I thought thats what IS players wanted to make IS omnimechs viable? You were all asking for the ability to swap engines on the IS omnis. Because ISXL is so horrible you want LFE on you your omnis.

So I just assumed all omnis would get that capability.

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2017 - 08:27 PM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 08:24 PM, said:

I thought thats what IS players wanted to make IS omnimechs viable? You were all asking for the ability to swap engines on the IS omnis.

So I just assumed all omnis would get that capability.

When you assume stuff and tell noone about it, you sound crazy.

[Khobai]

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When you assume stuff and tell noone about it, you sound crazy

im pretty sure people assume im crazy anyway

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 08:27 PM, said:

im pretty sure people assume im crazy anyway

With your inability to quote, I assume IE (it cannot use the Quote because reasons)


Yes, crazy if you use IE

[Hopeasusi]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

Also many of the IS mechs get tons and tons of armor and structure quirks to compensate. I mean just look at the Annihilator, 31 to CT armor, 26 to ST armor, -15% change to crit. Lets compare it against another engine cap limited mech that will only run a maximum of 48 kph, a Clan one, the Direwolf. Lets see how much extra armor it gets....hmmm.....wait.....errrr....I don't see any??? Well the Direwolf gets better firing angles right? Wait...err...umm....60 degrees for the Dire where the Annihilator gets 90 degrees. Oh gee do you think maybe the Annihilator gets all the extra armor and better torso yaw maybe to compensate for the fact that the Direwolf gets that fancy XL engine?? Did that every cross your mind. No of course not because that would be admitting that the Clans don't have an advantage and that would never do. Oh wait....forget something. The Annihilator will be getting a fancy new LFE engine that gives it pretty much the same durability advantages the Direwolf has....wait...Armor quirks, better firing arcs AND a light engine that allows you to survive a side torso loss. Gee yeah those Clan mechs, they are so superior. Gosh, Golly, Gee Wiz, why didn't I see the light before. Seriously, are you kidding me?

The fact that all IS mechs need quirks should ring a bell even in your head, that something is wrong with balance.

Why all mechs from one side need quirks to be competitive and best from other need to be nerfed to huge extend?
This all because a simple lack of balance between IS and Clan.

Base tech+weapons should be enough to balance best on each side. Then give quirks to mechs on both sides with bad geometry and few hardpoints to make them not suck too much compared to the top dogs.
This is how a balance in a PvP game should look like. Yes it would f... lore in the butt a bit, but balance is PvP games most important aspect.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 08:24 PM, said:

I thought thats what IS players wanted to make IS omnimechs viable? You were all asking for the ability to swap engines on the IS omnis. Because ISXL is so horrible you want LFE on you your omnis.

So I just assumed all omnis would get that capability.

I was against that particular idea.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

in the short Time of the PTS , im have only found a new good Weapon and a Build with IS LE ...Crab with IS LE and 3 L-PPCs , all other Weapons and Tech ..Snubnose PPCs interesting , big Problem is the hitreg by same PPCs ...for the most other builds ,the LE for me not very a Option

and Balancing in BT ..the Claninvasion in BT a bad idea , in a PvP a Bad idea (all will buy Clanmechs ,e give Clanmechs) better for MWO only 3025 Tech

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 15 July 2017 - 11:35 PM.

[Dogstar]

Mcgral18, on 15 July 2017 - 08:35 PM, said:

With your inability to quote, I assume IE (it cannot use the Quote because reasons)


Yes, crazy if you use IE

Now there's something that annoys the hell out of me. Why the **** can't this stupid forum work in IE? You can't add images, you can't quote, you can't do **** all.

Why the **** can't forum developers test against a standard install of IE! Lazy biased *****. They'd be sacked and out the door in under a New York minute in any corporate environment with an attitude like that.

Edited by Dogstar, 16 July 2017 - 12:07 AM.

[xe N on]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 15 July 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:

in the short Time of the PTS , im have only found a new good Weapon and a Build with IS LE ...Crab with IS LE and 3 L-PPCs , all other Weapons and Tech ..Snubnose PPCs interesting , big Problem is the hitreg by same PPCs ...for the most other builds ,the LE for me not very a Option

and Balancing in BT ..the Claninvasion in BT a bad idea , in a PvP a Bad idea (all will buy Clanmechs ,e give Clanmechs) better for MWO only 3025 Tech

There will be more.

Stalker
Thunderbolt
GRF-3M
Mauler

They will profit.

Atlas, e.g. - not so much, because of space problems.

Edited by xe N on, 16 July 2017 - 12:49 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 08:24 PM, said:

I thought thats what IS players wanted to make IS omnimechs viable? You were all asking for the ability to swap engines on the IS omnis. Because ISXL is so horrible you want LFE on you your omnis.

So I just assumed all omnis would get that capability.

I'm still pushing for 1 of 2 options for balancing OmniMechs vs BattleMechs

#1 Engines can be swapped for an equal rating one (XL300 to LFE 300 or STD 300) or an equal tonnage one (XL 300 to and LFE 250 or STD 230).

#2 XL penalty change. BattleMech = die on torso loss (Clan & IS), OnmiMech = current Clan/LFE penalties (Clan & IS).

[Wattila]

xe N on, on 16 July 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

There will be more.

Stalker
Thunderbolt
GRF-3M
Mauler

They will profit.

Atlas, e.g. - not so much, because of space problems.

Stalker - Already crit starved, low engine cap (no point going over STD300 on most builds, really)

Thunderbolt - Ditto. However, 9SE can drop ferro for some extra DHS, and TD can do something like 2xLPL + 6xERML with LFE300 (tried on PTS, it's OK). Not going to make any of the C-Bill variants good, though.

Griffin 3M - What is the build? Strip the arms and drop some JJ/DHS to fit a big LFE? Not sure if it's worth it as you're likely to get legged anyway.

Mauler - Mmh, 6xUAC2, 4xUAC5, 2xUAC20 with a big LFE are most likely going to be common builds.

Wouldn't write off the Atlas, btw. Sure, you can't do the classic 4xASRM6 + AC20 brawler with LFE, but you can use the extra tonnage for crit-efficient weapons like MRMs and large lasers/PPCs on the non-S variants. On a related note, here are some mechs I found were really improved by LFE. Basically any build with 2xUAC5 or 1xAC20 in a side torso will be a lot better.

Orion - (U)AC20/2xUAC5 and SRMS/MRMs on the VA and V. The Orions used to be really slow due to being forced to use a STD engine, but found them fun to play on the PTS.

Marauder - 3xAC5 used to be the only thing that worked on the 3R, imo. Now you have multiple options for the ballistic slots with more tonnage for secondary weapons like SNPPCs.

Shadow Hawk - The 2xUAC5 SHD-5M "Dakka Hawk" was already a solid performer with a STD engine. Now the build will be faster and carries more ammo. A SHD-2H (for ballistic cooldown quirks) with (U)AC20/3xSRM4 is also incredibly lethal - much better than the already good AC10/SRM4 build in almost every way.

Hunchback - The 4G with (U)AC20 is seriously fun with the increased speed and badass quirks.

Warhammer - The BoomHammer was already fun, now you can do the same build with UAC20s and really wreck face. There will be a GH limit on live, though, so need to figure out how to stagger fire.

Edited by Wattila, 16 July 2017 - 03:49 AM.

[xe N on]

Wattila, on 16 July 2017 - 03:32 AM, said:

Stalker - Already crit starved, low engine cap (no point going over STD300 on most builds, really)

Laservomit Stalker 4N or the 3FB will have some room for more tonnage. It's not much, but around 4 to 5 tons. LRMs build won't but these builds are bad anyways and will stay bad.

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Thunderbolt - Ditto. However, 9SE can drop ferro for some extra DHS, and TD can do something like 2xLPL + 6xERML with LFE300 (tried on PTS, it's OK). Not going to make any of the C-Bill variants good, though.

TDR-5SS can go 3 LPL (or ER-LL), 4 ML with LFE without loosing too much speed.

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Griffin 3M - What is the build? Strip the arms and drop some JJ/DHS to fit a big LFE? Not sure if it's worth it as you're likely to get legged anyway.

Mine use 4-ASRM4 + flamer, endo+ferro @ STD 275. Remove ferro, add LFE gives around 3 ton more room for higher engine cap or bringing up right arm armor for another flamer.

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Shadow Hawk - The 2xUAC5 SHD-5M "Dakka Hawk" was already a solid performer with a STD engine. Now the build will be faster and carries more ammo. A SHD-2H (for ballistic cooldown quirks) with (U)AC20/3xSRM4 is also incredibly lethal - much better than the already good AC10/SRM4 build in almost every way.

The 5M with 1 UAC-10, XL-Engine and it's inherent jamming quirks will be quite competitive, too. I will run mine with 2 LPL in addition.

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Hunchback - The 4G with (U)AC20 is seriously fun with the increased speed and badass quirks.

Next to all Hunchies will profit.

[JadePanther]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2017 - 01:21 PM, said:

Alot of my XL builds will be swapping over especially since there is a who slew of new weapons coming out as well. It is hard to explain but you can do a fair amount of weight reduction on current builds due to just changing up the builds. This is going to free up quite a bit of weight.

For example, my PHX-2 currently mounts 2 x LL and 3 x ML with 270 XL. The primary reason I mount the 2 LLs is to give me the range I need to engage targets from well outside the ranges where the enemy can easily target me despite my ECM. MLs alone don't give me enough range to constantly do that. However ER MLs absolutely do so with the new tech I will ditch the 2 LLs and just mount 6 x ER MLs while using the extra weight to mount a 300 LFE which not only improves my durability but also my speed. I trade a bit of alpha but gain a faster rate of fire and while I technically do lose quite a bit of range off the LLs, I can easily Skill my ER ML range out to 400m which is just fine.

I spent alot of time on test and I have builds in mechs as small as 35 tons that can take advantage of the LFE engines. It becomes a trade off but in generally I feel I am gaining more than I am losing. Once I get up to the 50-55 ton range and higher it becomes easier to justify the LFE though. Overall for the 68 IS mechs I owned a good 40 of them are going to be converting to LFE. That being the case, I figured up that I would be spending in the neighborhood of 100-130 million C-bills just on LFE's alone.

YEP
this is one mech i'll be inclined to move to a LFE as well.. The hawk is a giant target that needs the speed and wieght it can muster yet needing an XL leaves it quite vulnerable.. LFE's would really improve its surviability..

[ApolloKaras]

I'm kinda torn on this. Casual play I'm sure it will see some use. Comp play? Not a chance. Comp play you are making the most of the tonnage available - LFE doesn't really give you that.... I'm attempting to think of a mech outside of the CTF-4X that someone mentioned earlier, maybe a brawling medium or two.

[Wildstreak]

Vindicators I know for certain.
I backed up my claims about previous PTS and had enough time after installing this one to try out 1R and 1X. Better with LFE.
Still have to figure out 1AA and SIB loadouts.

Possibly some other Mediums and Lights. I run Wolfhounds and Crabs with STD for toughness though it lowers their firepower and still do decent. Now add LFE and watch the damage increase while still having toughness.

Maybe on the UrbanMech due to its speed and to aggravate people including the toughness buff.

I wonder if a Lolcust can run LFE decent?

Will be checking for a long time, I have so many Mediums and Lights.

[ingramli]

I hate to say that, but balance the disparity of engines advantages/disadvantages by quirks is dumb at best. The reality is IS have way more mechs (perhaps the worst example is PNT-10P) that are by no means competitive in FP (which i feel is the real place testing the effectiveness of builds in highly competitive environment). It is THE problem of balancing by quirks, balance is hardly achievable, too many mechs almost never seen in action in FP.