97 replies to this topic

[SMDMadCow]

visionGT4, on 17 July 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

TBR is certainly been the iconic mech in MWO - since day 1 of the clan invasion release it was the goto mech for curb stomping baby seals.

grats for wanting to be associated with that

The Timberwolf has been the face of the franchise since MechWarrior 2, popular mech is popular.

[Ganatar]

I'm just T4 (though Im usually duo dropping in group queue with an equally bad buddy and fighting uphill) but I've been having a pretty enjoyable time running mine with an lbx 20 and srm6a from the second line and shotgun blasting people in the face. Went down the left side of the survivability tree for some armor and a good amount of torso speed from mobility and it seems to work fine. I know its probably not its optimal build/role, but even like that its far from useless or unplayable.

[DGTLDaemon]

Bud Crue, on 17 July 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

I love my 2 LPL 4ERML Timbie S. Felt kinda under gunned when I built it, but I have never had better more consistently good results with any 75 ton IS mech.

That build works quite well on TBR-A - it has just the right number of hardpoints, and negative quirks get cancelled out by the full ominpod set bonus. And it's not undergunned at all, 2xLPL+4xERML+TC1 is IMHO the optimal laser vomit build for the Timbie. But nega-quirks have become a serious problem for a number of other builds post engine desync. If not for them, I would say the Timbie is doing fine.

[Dr Hobo]

SMDMadCow, on 18 July 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

The Timberwolf has been the face of the franchise since MechWarrior 2, popular mech is popular.

So?

Doesn't mean it's gonna be any good if the pilot at the controls has a short between his ears.

Skill>expecting the mechs OPness to carry you to victory.

[SMDMadCow]

Dr Hobo, on 18 July 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

So?

Doesn't mean it's gonna be any good if the pilot at the controls has a short between his ears.

Skill>expecting the mechs OPness to carry you to victory.

I think you need to re-read the quote I quoted, different conversation.

[Davegt27]

well at least we are not getting the standard "its the best Mech in the game stfu"

now its "its still a good Mech stfu"

lol

[Dr Hobo]

SMDMadCow, on 18 July 2017 - 06:30 AM, said:

I think you need to re-read the quote I quoted, different conversation.

And thats what I get for derping my reading comprehension lol.

Davegt27, on 18 July 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

well at least we are not getting the standard "its the best Mech in the game stfu"

now its "its still a good Mech stfu"

lol

Best mech in game is Urbanmech.Deal with it dirty clanners.

But no,I don't think the TBW was ever really the best mech. It was one of the most adaptable clammers for a long time however.

But it's like any heavy,it's better than anything lighter,and heavier than it for most jobs tbh.

[Kaethir]

Having run the TBR as my primary mech for a long time...

1. no, it is not as powerful as it used to be
2. honestly, it used to be OP and needed some nerfing.
3. while it is excellent in that it can decently run almost any style of build (laservomit, dakka, lrmboat, laser/SRM brawler, sniping, gauss/ppc... i could go on), there is a better mech for pretty much every build it can run. jack of all trades, master of none.
4. the hitboxes are a pain, but that's been true from day 1.
5. a lot of the general population hasn't moved past the fact that it used to be OP and running one pretty much paints a giant target on you unless you hug a kodiak, mad-iic, or other very high priority target.
6. engine desync hurt, but not as bad as a lot of people seem to think.

it's still a decent mech and a competent pilot can do very well with it. I have almost stopped using them completely because I'm currently spending most of my time grinding points for new mechs. I could deal with removing the negative quirks, but outside of that I don't see a need for buffs.

[Metus regem]

Okay OP, my first thought is user error on your part....

That being said, if we look at the Timber Wolf's hit boxes sans Missile boxes (as those extend the ST hit boxes):




From the front and side, the CT is easy to core out, before the engine decoupling, the Timber Wolf made use of the twisting speed agility granted to it from the 375 series engine to take it's okay hit boxes and turn them into good hit boxes. Now post decoupling, she needs some points spent in the agility points of the tree to get that back.

Now with that said, the Timber Wolf isn't a bad heavy by any stretch, really any Clan heavy is hard to call bad, even the often under weaponized Summoner. As even the weakest Clan heavy is better than the average IS heavy, this is due to the nature of Clan Tech, being lighter and / or smaller than IS equivalents.

So yes I am going to stick with my original thought that it is user error as my TBR-D is still the same murder machine it's always been. Perhaps OP, the Timber Wolf just isn't right right mech for you, not every mech matches well with everyone, I know that I am incompatible with Storm Crows for example...

[Ced Riggs]

Metus regem, on 18 July 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

Now post decoupling, she needs some points spent in the agility points of the tree to get that back.

Now with that said, the Timber Wolf isn't a bad heavy by any stretch, really any Clan heavy is hard to call bad, even the often under weaponized Summoner. As even the weakest Clan heavy is better than the average IS heavy, this is due to the nature of Clan Tech, being lighter and / or smaller than IS equivalents.

Your post has multiple factual falsehoods. I am not saying you are doing so maliciously, but you are still quite wrong.

1.) "Some" or even "a lot" of points in mobility do little to nothing, as they are percentage based. The TBR has a mobility profile that gives scarcely any pay-out for the points invested. Even less so for "some" points. This effect is even worse on Assaults, but the TBR isn't too far off. Currently, the TBR has worse agility than multiple IS assaults.

For reference:
24.63 - Rifleman (all), Catapult (C4), Black Knight (6), Marauder (all), Victor (all), Cyclops (all), Maddog (all), Executioner (all)
22.33 - Catapult (A1, C1, K2), Jagermech (all), Roughneck (all), Thunderbolt (all except Top Dog), Highlander (all), Ebon Jaguar (all), Hellbringer (all)
20.02 - Archer (all), Cataphract (all), Warhammer (all), Awesome (Pretty Baby), Battlemaster (all), Hunchback-IIC (all), Highlander-IIC (all)
17.72 - Black Knight (all except 6), Orion (all), Banshee (all except 3S), Onion-IIC (all), Timberwolf (all), Warhawk (all)
15.41 - Awesome (all except Pretty Baby), Stalker (3FB), Supernova (1)

"Some" points aren't going to cut it, and even "a lot" aren't going to do much to restore the TBR's agility, even less so if you use certain omnipods which make that already horrid agility profile even worse with negative quirks.

2.) Summoner's can carry one less ERML (soon the same amount) as the TBR, but carry ECM. Calling the Summoner undergunned is a bit of a miss. It's narrow in what it can effectively run, and that's laser vomit, period. But soon, the more agile, better hitbox'ed, ECM'd Summoner can match the TBR's laser vomit (2 LPL, 4 ERML) and make the TBR even more obsolete. It is already better than the TBR in many regards.

3.) Multiple IS Heavies already match the TBR in effectiveness, and with the introduction of LFE, will leave it entirely in the dirt. Marauder, Warhammer, Thunderbolt, etc. come to mind. Not only do those mechs have better hitboxes, they also have non-restrictive components, can deadside better, and run armor and/or structure quirks to give them assault levels of protection all the while being more agile than the Timber Wolf.

"It's clan, so it's better."; "Works on my machine."; "L2P" are all nonarguments if you have any intention to talk about the Timber Wolf and balance in any extent of objective fairness. Apologies for being blunt, but this wishy-washy "I'm okay in that mech." nonsense has nothing to do with any conversation of factual game balance.

[The6thMessenger]

Ced Riggs, on 18 July 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

"It's clan, so it's better."; "Works on my machine."; "L2P" are all nonarguments if you have any intention to talk about the Timber Wolf and balance in any extent of objective fairness. Apologies for being blunt, but this wishy-washy "I'm okay in that mech." nonsense has nothing to do with any conversation of factual game balance.

Funny, all you really did is highlighted where TBR is in terms of agility than make an argument, but then so what? What does it mean?

I wouldn't comment on the LFE part, cause we haven't gotten there yet.

Consider this, TBR is still in good standing, viable, basically it just works, evident with the testimony of many competent players, despite of the agility nerf. Don't you think it also has something else to do with agility?

I agree that TBR would be better off having it's former glory back, and I would like that. But, it's far from the OP's proposal that it's a "Joke Mech" and "unplayable", and that always had been the point of contention if you really read the OP's concern. All he ever highlighted is how he is incompetent to pilot a Timber Wolf for the time being, than it having issues with survivabilty.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 July 2017 - 11:41 AM.

[Grus]

Am I in before potato? Because if I am.. #inbeforecarlvickerspostsapotato

[Angel of Annihilation]

Hal Greaves, on 17 July 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Timberwolves are not bad at all, they are still good mechs

the issue is that there are better specialized mechs to take over the timberwolf, depending on what you needs to be done

EBJ's bring much higher laserpuke firepower

HBR's have ECM and a better all around profile, especially with the higher mounted torso slots (ECM is still totally worth pushing on this mech)

Night Gyr's are way better jumpsnipers


The only thing that leaves behind are SRM boats / brawlers, something that I've not done in forever while running with my current unit because its not our playstyle

You fairly accurate in your evaluation. Timberwolf are still pretty good but they are very much a generalist. Their Hitboxes are just ok but not great. Their weapons mounts are fairly low but terminally so. Their agility is decent but not great. They have alot of versatility but don't specialize well. However, for their size, they can bring a decent amount of firepower and can still run at 87 kph tweaked. Overall I rank they at "Good" but they are no longer the dominant mech they once were, not by a long shot.

[Metus regem]

Ced Riggs, on 18 July 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

Your post has multiple factual falsehoods. I am not saying you are doing so maliciously, but you are still quite wrong.

1.) "Some" or even "a lot" of points in mobility do little to nothing, as they are percentage based. The TBR has a mobility profile that gives scarcely any pay-out for the points invested. Even less so for "some" points. This effect is even worse on Assaults, but the TBR isn't too far off. Currently, the TBR has worse agility than multiple IS assaults.

For reference:
24.63 - Rifleman (all), Catapult (C4), Black Knight (6), Marauder (all), Victor (all), Cyclops (all), Maddog (all), Executioner (all)
22.33 - Catapult (A1, C1, K2), Jagermech (all), Roughneck (all), Thunderbolt (all except Top Dog), Highlander (all), Ebon Jaguar (all), Hellbringer (all)
20.02 - Archer (all), Cataphract (all), Warhammer (all), Awesome (Pretty Baby), Battlemaster (all), Hunchback-IIC (all), Highlander-IIC (all)
17.72 - Black Knight (all except 6), Orion (all), Banshee (all except 3S), Onion-IIC (all), Timberwolf (all), Warhawk (all)
15.41 - Awesome (all except Pretty Baby), Stalker (3FB), Supernova (1)

"Some" points aren't going to cut it, and even "a lot" aren't going to do much to restore the TBR's agility, even less so if you use certain omnipods which make that already horrid agility profile even worse with negative quirks.

2.) Summoner's can carry one less ERML (soon the same amount) as the TBR, but carry ECM. Calling the Summoner undergunned is a bit of a miss. It's narrow in what it can effectively run, and that's laser vomit, period. But soon, the more agile, better hitbox'ed, ECM'd Summoner can match the TBR's laser vomit (2 LPL, 4 ERML) and make the TBR even more obsolete. It is already better than the TBR in many regards.

3.) Multiple IS Heavies already match the TBR in effectiveness, and with the introduction of LFE, will leave it entirely in the dirt. Marauder, Warhammer, Thunderbolt, etc. come to mind. Not only do those mechs have better hitboxes, they also have non-restrictive components, can deadside better, and run armor and/or structure quirks to give them assault levels of protection all the while being more agile than the Timber Wolf.

"It's clan, so it's better."; "Works on my machine."; "L2P" are all nonarguments if you have any intention to talk about the Timber Wolf and balance in any extent of objective fairness. Apologies for being blunt, but this wishy-washy "I'm okay in that mech." nonsense has nothing to do with any conversation of factual game balance.

I am more than happy to discuss in an objective manor as to the standing of a unit. I try to keep ego out of my posts, it's just not helpful or useful to a discussion.

The IS Heavies that are good, are only good due to quirks, take away those quirks and a lot of the 'better' IS mechs fall rather flat. Now when I was calling the Summoner underarmed, it was a referance to the pod space available to it.(20.69t fully armoured)

See this list for available pod space on Clan Heavies Omni's at full armour:

Line Backer [65t] (17.5t)
Summoner [70t] (20.69t)
Hellbringer [65t] (23.31t)
Mad Dog [60t] (26.3t)
Timber Wolf [75t] (27.46t / 22.46t if using the S varaint)
Ebon Jaguar [65t] (28.51t)
Night Gyr [75t] (37.46t)


As that list shows only the Line Backer can take less equipment than the Summoner, but in the Line Backer's favour is the much higher ground speed. Now not only doe the Summoner have less hardpoint options than the Timber Wolf, it also has less tonnage to work with, thanks to a lack of Endo and FF. That combined with PGI's decision to add in the Timber Wolf S, meant that the Summoner will always be second banana to the Timber Wolf.

How ever that is divating from my original target for my post, that I do beilive it is pilot incompatability with the mech, that the OP is suffering from, as the Timber Wolf is far from the worst heavy mech clan mech in the game, and that even the worst Clan heavy is still better than the average IS heavy.


Now as to LFE's yes they are going to be a nice option against having to use a Standard engine if you want a ST weapon that takes 10 slots, but it is still 50% heavier than the cXL with the same ST loss penatiles as the cXL, combined with 3 slot DHS, eve the mechs that are getting a boost from the LFE are not going to be a match ton for ton with a Clan counter part, it is going to come down to whom has the better pilot with better compatability with their mech.

By compatability, I do not mean the skill tree system, I mean being able to make the most of their mech, knowing it's limitations and riding the edge of their performance evlope while at the same time knowing how to capitalize on the weakness of their target.

[Shadowomega1]

The6thMessenger, on 17 July 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

True. Of course that's heretical. You heretic.

SRMs are still reasonably small. Hell my LRM build now goes 2x SSRM6 + 2x LRM15A, so i'm not screwed over both by range, and that large missile rack.

While not having the boxes set so high, the boxes against the structure still make the sides a massive target to hit.

[Kokurokoki]

Ganatar, on 18 July 2017 - 06:19 AM, said:

I'm just T4 (though Im usually duo dropping in group queue with an equally bad buddy and fighting uphill) but I've been having a pretty enjoyable time running mine with an lbx 20 and srm6a from the second line and shotgun blasting people in the face. Went down the left side of the survivability tree for some armor and a good amount of torso speed from mobility and it seems to work fine. I know its probably not its optimal build/role, but even like that its far from useless or unplayable.

I am in tier 3 at the moment, and I've been running a similar build to yours for the past few days. Actually SRM6+LB20 is a beast of a build for a Timberwolf, especially if you have good map awareness and use the Timberwolf to its strengths. If I were you, I would go full Survival and Mobility trees to build upon the strengths of the Timberwolf and improve some of its weaknesses. With a full survival tree you can have 100 frontal armor for your CT and a lot of extra structure to help you get through the mid and endgame where your hitboxes tend to screw you over, and the speed tree allows you to flank very easily while utilizing cover. The one weakness of the build is that you can only alpha strike every 4 seconds. However, I run HMLs to give my build 1-2 punch ability. That way I get a 44-damage primary alpha, and a 30-damage followup. Lately I've been running MPLs though to let me return fire more. I lose 7 rounds of LB20 and 2 heatsinks, but I can manage more followup pin-point shots with the MPLs and it gives me a bit of extra range over the HMLs. Torso-twisting isn't as good on the TBR-P as it is on, say, the Cataphract. But you make up for it by being able to carry crap tons of weapons into battle, so being able to consistently deal more damage with the MPLs while your main alpha recharges is great for brawls and gives you some poking ability while you close to fight at 270 meters.

The best thing about the TBR is that as long as you properly roll damage across your frame via nose-wiggling and using its natural speed to flank and take cover, you never have to worry about your arm-mounted weapons getting destroyed as the TBR's arm hitboxes are small. This is great because you can slap an LB20 on there and just run around wrecking people's faces while you let your side torsos and center torso soak damage as you dart in and out of cover and use you speed to outmaneuver assaults and similar mechs of your weight class. You shouldn't treat it as an assault though. Don't charge into the enemy by yourself. Rather, make sure you got people behind or in front of you to help you soak damage.

It's pretty beastly, I average about 400-800 damage per game and at least 2-3 kills. Although, I'm kind of a good sport (can't aim for ****) and tend to let my teammates finish off the enemies while I go after other targets (get sad because I missed).

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoilered because fuckhuge images as I play at 1080 resolution. :/ I had some better games where I got 4 kills from critting people in the back, but I forgot to take screenshots.

But yeah. The madcat can brawl just fine. You just need to learn how to use it properly.

Edited by Kokurokoki, 23 July 2017 - 12:05 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Kokurokoki, on 22 July 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

But yeah. The madcat can brawl just fine. You just need to learn how to use it properly.

Its not really if it can or cannot brawl, its how well it brawls. I mean, I can go and brawl in the loyalty Blackjack, but its not a good option.

Orion IIC outbrawls the Timberwolf by a country mile, its about 5kph slower, but it has better hitboxes for a brawl and keeps the LBX in the torsos, allowing you to have an empty arm that you can strip for more tonnage. The Timberwolf has very easy to shoot at hitboxes, it becomes even more of a problem as you move up in tiers, anyone can easily single out and remove one of your torsos at ERPPC optimal ranges and even easier as you get closer, this means if you happen to have a big gun on one side of your mech or an asym loadout you'll get it shot off faster than a Hunchback's hunch in beta. If you're running a symmetric loadout then blowing out the CT is easy no matter where you twist.

Timber Wolf could use some bonus, its only claim to fame is being a jack of all trades, but a master of none, with the Clan options Night Gyr devastates it at poptarting with high firepower, Ebon Jaguar wins against it at carrying lots of guns in high mounts with good speed, Summoner beats it in poptarting with high speed, Mad Dog beats it at missile boating, Orion IIC beats it at brawling, Linebacker beats it at speed, Hellbringer beats it at ECM.

There's pretty much no reason to use a Timber Wolf if you actually know what role you're going for before you buy the mech.

[Lightfoot]

Has anyone checked the hitboxes on the TBR recently? I may have to go test and see if they are weaker now, been playing other mechs. Usually I shoot the two side torso to kill them because that is easiest, or was. The CT always seemed to be the smaller target to hit, except from behind.

[Abisha]

absolute nothing wrong with the Timber just won 5 matches with it.
if anything it gained even power with the new skills system

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Abisha, on 23 July 2017 - 03:04 AM, said:

absolute nothing wrong with the Timber just won 5 matches with it.
if anything it gained even power with the new skills system

Its possible to win 5 matches that you DC'ed from, doesn't really mean the mech's good.