83 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Zergling, on 19 July 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:

The Heavy PPC is so different to the Clan ER PPC it makes for a poor comparison. The IS ER PPC is much more similar, so is a better comparison.

None of what you said changes the fact that there is nothing else to compare it to. In the end the snub/light/ER/Standard/Heavy/CER are all PPCs and can be compared to each other to varying degrees, but that isn't to say they can't also fulfill different roles. To outright say they can't be compared is just being dishonest.

Zergling, on 19 July 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:

And no, the Heavy PPC is not 'too strong'. It is honestly barely average.

We will have to agree to disagree. Out of everything I tried out last night on both sides the Heavy PPC was the biggest standout for me. Playing on my junky laptop with my terrible aim shouldn't be that effective. The heat was pretty manageable while popping off 30 damage a shot. It was like running dual gauss before they added the charge mechanic. As such I stand by my position that it is a little too strong. I think it would still be a good weapon if they changed it to 12dmg with 1.5/1.5 spread.

[Metus regem]

Khobai, on 18 July 2017 - 10:27 PM, said:

1 ton doesnt buy me faster velocity.

Clan Targeting Comptuter Mk. 1

It does add velocity to the cERPPC....


Sorry, but I had to do it, you made it too easy.


That being said, look at the isERPPC in conjuction with the rest of the IS equipment. It's 1t and 1 crit more, combined with 3 crit DHS (50% larger than cDHS), this means that it has less DHS to work with for keeping it cool. When we go to the HPPC it's double the crits of the cERPPC, 1.66 times as heavy as the cERPPC, 280m less optimal range than the cERPPC with a 90m dead zone unlike the cERPPC. When looked at as a whole the HPPC is rather well balanced for the 15 pin point it does.

[Gas Guzzler]

WarHippy, on 19 July 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

None of what you said changes the fact that there is nothing else to compare it to. In the end the snub/light/ER/Standard/Heavy/CER are all PPCs and can be compared to each other to varying degrees, but that isn't to say they can't also fulfill different roles. To outright say they can't be compared is just being dishonest.[/size]
We will have to agree to disagree. Out of everything I tried out last night on both sides the Heavy PPC was the biggest standout for me. Playing on my junky laptop with my terrible aim shouldn't be that effective. The heat was pretty manageable while popping off 30 damage a shot. It was like running dual gauss before they added the charge mechanic. As such I stand by my position that it is a little too strong. I think it would still be a good weapon if they changed it to 12dmg with 1.5/1.5 spread.

12/1.5/1.5 would be garbage for a 10 ton energy weapon. They tried that on the PTS, we know it wasn't that good.

[Monkey Lover]

WarHippy, on 19 July 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

None of what you said changes the fact that there is nothing else to compare it to. In the end the snub/light/ER/Standard/Heavy/CER are all PPCs and can be compared to each other to varying degrees, but that isn't to say they can't also fulfill different roles. To outright say they can't be compared is just being dishonest.[/size]
We will have to agree to disagree. Out of everything I tried out last night on both sides the Heavy PPC was the biggest standout for me. Playing on my junky laptop with my terrible aim shouldn't be that effective. The heat was pretty manageable while popping off 30 damage a shot. It was like running dual gauss before they added the charge mechanic. As such I stand by my position that it is a little too strong. I think it would still be a good weapon if they changed it to 12dmg with 1.5/1.5 spread.

What is new here? You have always been able to pop 30 in a shot. Its 3 normal ppcs.and even this is slightly better as its 0.5 less heat and cooldown.

Meta this has been too hot to keep up the dps, So to get 30 they would do 2 ac5+2ppc.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 19 July 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[davoodoo]

WarHippy, on 19 July 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

The heat was pretty manageable while popping off 30 damage a shot.

Define manageable??

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...df97845a29f68cb
4 salvos before shutdown is ******* hot mate...

[BoldricKent]

Khobai, on 19 July 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

only the bad clan mechs get quirks they took the quirks away from the good ones.

whereas tier1 IS mechs usually have some of the best quirks and often thats what makes them tier1.



and still vastly underperforming.

IS ERPPC with 30% velocity quirks and without TC = 2500m/s

no matter how you try to manipulate the facts or sugar coat it the velocity is inferior by a huge margin

the CERPPC still crawls across the map while the ISERPPC hits almost instantaneously. and having to take a high level targeting computer is no real solution. there is a reason people dont use targeting computers and why PGI is looking at completely redoing them in the future.



If the quirks were removed/significantly reduced id be fine with that. The quirks are really what pushes it over the top.

base level balance without relying on quirks should really be the ultimate goal anyway. quirks at most should be adding like 10% bonuses maybe. not absurd amounts like 30%.

Just once i would like to see that ultra tier 1 IS ERPPc build, which dominates the skys over MWO.
From my experience there is very few IS mech that boat ERPPc in greater number the 2 and im quite
sure that those which can (like Awsome) are far cry from Tier 1 build.
If you look at the spread off PPc used in drops, clan ERPPc are far ahead of IS counterparts.
With all new sub version, jup, the use of PPC in IS will raise, but the tonnage limit on Heavy makes
it sure that only few mech can even boat it... so its far from burning sky you are trying to paint.
But you get points for consistence.

[Zergling]

Lucian Nostra, on 19 July 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

This is the superficial argument, the "I had this time I killed a mech with the splash damage" yeah it happens.. once in a blue moon, for every instance you can find of the splash damage doing something meaningful I guarantee I can find easily 100+ times it didn't do anything but pad numbers

Sustained DPS? How do you figure champ? ooh again because the splash damage pads your numbers = more epeen.

I'd gladly drop the splash from the cerppc and have it go to 11-12 heat. Hell that's a straight nerf coming from you 'No really splash damage is good!" people

There is no need to be so antagonistic, especially since you do not appear to fully understand what I am talking about.

Sustained DPS is the overall damage done over time, without overheating the mech.
When both weapons do the same damage (and before you demonstrate you don't understand what I'm talking about again, this is without considering splash damage), a higher sustained DPS means the weapon can fire more often.

In other words, the Clan ER PPC can fire more often than the IS ER PPC, because the Clan mech is dissipating the heat faster. It can maintain a higher effective rate of fire, despite the Clan ER PPC having a 0.5 second slower cooldown.


11-12 heat in the Clan ER PPC in exchange for loss of splash is extremely unlikely, because it is even less heat than the IS ER PPC, when IS don't have the compounding Clan tech advantages of 2 slot DHS, Clan XL, 7 slot endo/ferro.

For the Clan ER PPC to be adequately balanced against the IS ER PPC, it'd lose the splash, get same velocity and cooldown as the IS ER PPC, and get heat increased to 18.


Here, I'll compare the 'all other things being equal' 50 ton IS vs Clan twin ER PPC builds, with Clan ER PPCs having 18 heat:

IS mech gets 17 double heatsinks, for 3.05 heat dissipation per second
Clan mech gets 24 double heatsinks, for 4.10 heat dissipation per second

IS mech with 13.5 x 2 heat firing every 4.0 seconds equals 6.75 heat per second. 6.75 HPS divided by 3.05 heat dissipation/second equals 45.19% heat efficiency and 2.26 sustained DPS.
Clan mech with 18.0 x 2 heat firing every 4.0 seconds equals 8.00 heat per second. 8.00 HPS divided by 4.10 heat dissipation/second equals 45.26% heat efficiency and 2.28 sustained DPS.

With 12 heat, the Clan mech would be 12 x 2 heat firing every 4.0 seconds for 6.00 heat per second. That would be 68.33% heat efficiency and 3.42 sustained DPS.
That is blatantly overpowered, and if PGI has any sort of competence they'd never drop Clan ER PPC heat that low without corresponding buffs to the IS ER PPC.


On the flip side, if such a balancing actually occurred for all weapons, Inner Sphere mechs would lose almost all quirks, as quirks would no longer be required for IS vs Clan balance.

WarHippy, on 19 July 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

We will have to agree to disagree. Out of everything I tried out last night on both sides the Heavy PPC was the biggest standout for me. Playing on my junky laptop with my terrible aim shouldn't be that effective. The heat was pretty manageable while popping off 30 damage a shot. It was like running dual gauss before they added the charge mechanic. As such I stand by my position that it is a little too strong. I think it would still be a good weapon if they changed it to 12dmg with 1.5/1.5 spread.

It is only 30 damage alpha with 1200 m/s velocity, 540 meter optimal range, 90 meter minimum range and high heat.
Gauss before charge mechanic was 30 damage alpha with 2000 m/s velocity, 630 meter optimal range (and triple maximum range), no minimum range and practically zero heat.

If Heavy PPCs could be alphaed with Gauss Rifles, yeah they'd be fairly strong... but the same patch that introduced them nerfed that combo.

Edited by Zergling, 19 July 2017 - 09:14 AM.

[WarHippy]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 July 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

12/1.5/1.5 would be garbage for a 10 ton energy weapon. They tried that on the PTS, we know it wasn't that good.

It was "known" for the people that said it wasn't good I just don't agree. I would also be fine with 13/1/1. I just personally think at 15 a pop it is a tad too good, and so far I have not seen a single argument during the testing or now after release that is convincing otherwise. I love the weapon as it currently is I just feel it is a bit out of line.

davoodoo, on 19 July 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

Define manageable??

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...df97845a29f68cb
4 salvos before shutdown is ******* hot mate...

4 salvos before shutdown is manageable... It isn't meant to just stand and fire on cool down non-stop. Being able to fire two or three times with a pair of them and taking some time to re-position and cool off is to me rather manageable.

FYI I can't look at smurfy while at work because our firewall as decided to block it "category weapons" and I can't be bothered to change it. So I'm not sure what the build is you are showing me. I ran a Thunderbolt 9S with 2 HPPCs and 3 ERML and for me the heat was manageable while still putting up decent numbers playing on my old laptop that makes hitting anything complicated.

[Graugger]

Just remove the new IS weapons and reduce all velocity based weapons in the IS by 50% velocity.

[Gas Guzzler]

WarHippy, on 19 July 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

It was "known" for the people that said it wasn't good I just don't agree. I would also be fine with 13/1/1. I just personally think at 15 a pop it is a tad too good, and so far I have not seen a single argument during the testing or now after release that is convincing otherwise. I love the weapon as it currently is I just feel it is a bit out of line.

Its a 10 ton energy weapon that generates 14.5 heat. If it didn't do 15 damage, it wouldn't be worth it. Even in a Highlander with 2 AC5s and 2 HPPCs I didn't feel like I was just face-rolling everybody, and I had to use an XL engine to run that build too.. because its so heavy. It wasn't nearly as deadly as a 3 UAC5 2 ER PPC Marauder IIC, which has much higher sustained DPS, can survive torso loss, and moves 70 kph instead of 63.

So... what's the build that is so meta defining that uses heavy PPCs? A 2 Heavy PPC medium poptart? I think the 2 cER PPC medium poptart would still have the edge there. More speed, more DHS, more range, no minimum range. People are forgetting when you are using a pair cERPPCs that splash is equal to an AC5 round to each adjacent component. That of course is not as good as 15 pinpoint, but its better than nothing and it can add up.

[WarHippy]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 July 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

Its a 10 ton energy weapon that generates 14.5 heat. If it didn't do 15 damage, it wouldn't be worth it. Even in a Highlander with 2 AC5s and 2 HPPCs I didn't feel like I was just face-rolling everybody, and I had to use an XL engine to run that build too.. because its so heavy. It wasn't nearly as deadly as a 3 UAC5 2 ER PPC Marauder IIC, which has much higher sustained DPS, can survive torso loss, and moves 70 kph instead of 63.

It would still be doing 15 damage even if a small amount is being spread. I'm not saying it is this absurdly powerful weapon I just think it having 15 pin point is a bit much. Yeah, that Marauder IIC is in general the better build than the Highlander you mentioned, but those UAC5s are far more worrisome to me than the 2 CERPPC on that mech whereas the HPPCs on the Highlander are the bigger concern for it. That being said the Marauder is spreading a great deal more damage than the Highlander but has the advantage of better placed hard points which I think plays the bigger role in the performance difference between the two.

Gas Guzzler, on 19 July 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

So... what's the build that is so meta defining that uses heavy PPCs? A 2 Heavy PPC medium poptart? I think the 2 cER PPC medium poptart would still have the edge there. More speed, more DHS, more range, no minimum range. People are forgetting when you are using a pair cERPPCs that splash is equal to an AC5 round to each adjacent component. That of course is not as good as 15 pinpoint, but its better than nothing and it can add up.

Time will tell what ends up being meta defining builds. As for the splash I agree it does add up and it would add up for the 2xHPPC if it had it as well only instead of spreading an AC5 worth of damage it gets roughly an AC5 worth of extra pin point damage with some extra splash for good measure. I'm definitely not forgetting the splash which is why I find the argument hollow that if the HPPC had a little splash in place of a little bit of its direct damage it is somehow supposed to be bad.

[Widowmaker1981]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 July 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

....a Highlander with 2 AC5s and 2 HPPCs I didn't feel like I was just face-rolling everybody, and I had to use an XL engine to run that build too.. because its so heavy...

Are you running it with no Endo to fit more DHS? I built that with an LFE325 pretty comfortably. (4 tons of ammo, 16 DHS)

[Gas Guzzler]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 July 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

Are you running it with no Endo to fit more DHS? I built that with an LFE325 pretty comfortably. (4 tons of ammo, 16 DHS)

Huh, really? I only had 17 DHS, and one was in the shield arm that wasn't fully armored. I also brought a HoverJet.. did you?

[Gas Guzzler]

WarHippy, on 19 July 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

It would still be doing 15 damage even if a small amount is being spread. I'm not saying it is this absurdly powerful weapon I just think it having 15 pin point is a bit much. Yeah, that Marauder IIC is in general the better build than the Highlander you mentioned, but those UAC5s are far more worrisome to me than the 2 CERPPC on that mech whereas the HPPCs on the Highlander are the bigger concern for it. That being said the Marauder is spreading a great deal more damage than the Highlander but has the advantage of better placed hard points which I think plays the bigger role in the performance difference between the two.
Time will tell what ends up being meta defining builds. As for the splash I agree it does add up and it would add up for the 2xHPPC if it had it as well only instead of spreading an AC5 worth of damage it gets roughly an AC5 worth of extra pin point damage with some extra splash for good measure. I'm definitely not forgetting the splash which is why I find the argument hollow that if the HPPC had a little splash in place of a little bit of its direct damage it is somehow supposed to be bad.

Well, 2 damage is pretty inconsequential, 5 is much less so. And you are also not taking into account the weight. There are tradeoffs here, when comparing the two the weight and slot limitations must be a factor of the comparison. Yes weapon to weapon ignoring slots and tons, you could compare the cERPPC and the Heavy PPC right now. The HPPC has higher pinpoint damage, the cERPPC has longer range, higher velocity (1500 vs 1200), and no minimum range. If they were the same size/weight, you could make the argument that yeah it should be closer to 12 or 13 pp damage with splash. But... they aren't. 10 tons vs 6 tons, 4 slots vs 2 slots, IS mechs have 3 slot DHS, Clan mechs have 2 slot DHS. All these have to be considered.

I also don't buy the Marauder-IIC is spreading a lot more damage argument. In practice I haven't found it terribly difficult to get most damage on target. In some situations that may be more of an issue on super agile smaller mechs, however I don't believe that outweighs the benefits.

[Monkey Lover]

WarHippy, on 19 July 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

It was "known" for the people that said it wasn't good I just don't agree. I would also be fine with 13/1/1. I just personally think at 15 a pop it is a tad too good, and so far I have not seen a single argument during the testing or now after release that is convincing otherwise. I love the weapon as it currently is I just feel it is a bit out of line.

4 salvos before shutdown is manageable... It isn't meant to just stand and fire on cool down non-stop. Being able to fire two or three times with a pair of them and taking some time to re-position and cool off is to me rather manageable.

FYI I can't look at smurfy while at work because our firewall as decided to block it "category weapons" and I can't be bothered to change it. So I'm not sure what the build is you are showing me. I ran a Thunderbolt 9S with 2 HPPCs and 3 ERML and for me the heat was manageable while still putting up decent numbers playing on my old laptop that makes hitting anything complicated.

This again is what I don't understand, you can do the same build with 3 ppc and 3erml. If they nerfed heavy ppc why would you use this? I could see single energy mechs using it but really then it's just a nerf to mechs with low hardpoints.

[Widowmaker1981]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 July 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

Huh, really? I only had 17 DHS, and one was in the shield arm that wasn't fully armored. I also brought a HoverJet.. did you?

Spoiler

It was actually 3.5 tons of ammo, and theres some armour stripping off non torso components because no one needs 100+ leg armour on a slow assault.

[Thaidron]

that is another kind of unbalance for me,I.S much more weapon options,against clan weapons

https://screenshot.net/pt/l3en8an

https://screenshot.net/pt/ee6m8ie

[WarHippy]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 July 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

Well, 2 damage is pretty inconsequential, 5 is much less so. And you are also not taking into account the weight. There are tradeoffs here, when comparing the two the weight and slot limitations must be a factor of the comparison. Yes weapon to weapon ignoring slots and tons, you could compare the cERPPC and the Heavy PPC right now. The HPPC has higher pinpoint damage, the cERPPC has longer range, higher velocity (1500 vs 1200), and no minimum range. If they were the same size/weight, you could make the argument that yeah it should be closer to 12 or 13 pp damage with splash. But... they aren't. 10 tons vs 6 tons, 4 slots vs 2 slots, IS mechs have 3 slot DHS, Clan mechs have 2 slot DHS. All these have to be considered.

5 damage hitting an adjacent location I didn't want to hit is also pretty inconsequential, and that assumes you get the full splash damage. 12 or 13 pin point is still better than 10 while still getting some splash damage that adds up. I do take those other things into account along with IS having more options in general beyond just different PPCs they can use for different scenarios. The damage is still 15 I just see no justification for it not having some splash.

Gas Guzzler, on 19 July 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

I also don't buy the Marauder-IIC is spreading a lot more damage argument. In practice I haven't found it terribly difficult to get most damage on target. In some situations that may be more of an issue on super agile smaller mechs, however I don't believe that outweighs the benefits.

CUAC5 is burst which can lead to a fare amount of spread depending on the shooter and the target, and a third of all the CERPPC damage is spread. The IS AC5 is pin point and the HPPC is pin point. You might not have much issue getting the damage on target with the Marauder-IIC but the spread is there. As for dealing with those super agile smaller mechs anything pin point with front loaded damage is going to be a pretty big advantage.

Monkey Lover, on 19 July 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

This again is what I don't understand, you can do the same build with 3 ppc and 3erml. If they nerfed heavy ppc why would you use this? I could see single energy mechs using it but really then it's just a nerf to mechs with low hardpoints.

I wouldn't call a small amount of damage being turned to splash damage all that much of a nerf. Having 12 or 13 pin point would still be a good option to look at depending on your needs with a particular mech. Not every mech is going to be able to do 3 PPC in place of 2 HPPC, and frankly I am fine with 3 PPC being marginally better that 2 HPPC. For my Thunderbolt I wouldn't use 3 PPC and 3 ERML in place of the 2 HPPC and 3 ERML even if the HPPC had a small amount of splash because it would fit better for how I run the mech plus having two shield arms instead of one.

[Gas Guzzler]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 July 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

It was actually 3.5 tons of ammo, and theres some armour stripping off non torso components because no one needs 100+ leg armour on a slow assault.

I might just stick with the XL... don't like stripping off the right arm.. and chances are the bad guys are gonna be shooting at my right torso anyway, even with an LFE I would just be a stick.

WarHippy, on 19 July 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

5 damage hitting an adjacent location I didn't want to hit is also pretty inconsequential, and that assumes you get the full splash damage. 12 or 13 pin point is still better than 10 while still getting some splash damage that adds up. I do take those other things into account along with IS having more options in general beyond just different PPCs they can use for different scenarios. The damage is still 15 I just see no justification for it not having some splash.
CUAC5 is burst which can lead to a fare amount of spread depending on the shooter and the target, and a third of all the CERPPC damage is spread. The IS AC5 is pin point and the HPPC is pin point. You might not have much issue getting the damage on target with the Marauder-IIC but the spread is there. As for dealing with those super agile smaller mechs anything pin point with front loaded damage is going to be a pretty big advantage.
I wouldn't call a small amount of damage being turned to splash damage all that much of a nerf. Having 12 or 13 pin point would still be a good option to look at depending on your needs with a particular mech. Not every mech is going to be able to do 3 PPC in place of 2 HPPC, and frankly I am fine with 3 PPC being marginally better that 2 HPPC. For my Thunderbolt I wouldn't use 3 PPC and 3 ERML in place of the 2 HPPC and 3 ERML even if the HPPC had a small amount of splash because it would fit better for how I run the mech plus having two shield arms instead of one.

Yeah, no. I'm not gonna make any knee jerk judgements based off of one night of play. Gonna wait until things level out. Seems like people are just say "OMG 15 PPFLD Heavy PPC" and not accounting for the whole picture. If HPPCs start dominating the META, we can talk about how to dial them back. But saying they need to be dialed back now is pretty baseless.

[Jay Leon Hart]

At the risk of repeating myself (much like this thread topic. What is this? 3 this week? 4?)

Why not just give Clans the EERPPC
7 tons
3 slots
12 damage
No splash
15 heat (which should come down, but only if it has more heat than the IS-ERPPC and/or lower velocity)