201 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

davoodoo, on 23 July 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

Most of the mechs are crippled in 2 trades...

thing is that with laservomit you can actually choose what will get that damage while 2atm12 will spread 72 dmg all scratching arms and legs which you really have no interest of targeting unless they are already damaged.


You really make atms sound horrible... and yet you want to nerf them to 1/2.7/1.8?? ill just assume that 2.7 is short range dmg.

No, what I want is to make them viable at all ranges but strong mid range. 1 damage from 0-120m, 2.7 from 121 to 300m, 1.8 from 301 to 810 or whatever.

They're strong right now, just with the 120m min they're inconsistent. They're comparable with laservomit, which is also strong, in mixed loadouts.

You're trying to compare a 75 ton Orion (which is also durable AF) with the 85 ton top tier meta MAD IIC laservomit.

That isn't going to happen with anything other than ATMs that have damage values inside min range. If that value is as good as Arms or better then the already marginal SRMs are religated to the pugfarm. If they're weaker up close then they are still useful but not flat out always better.

Again, why not look at what the top tier players who've already tested it have to say. They want to be able to use ATMs but with min range it's not a real option. However they have also said that if they're too strong up close then SRMs are pointless.

[davoodoo]

No ive been thinking 65 tons 6 ermed 2 lpl ebj...

[MischiefSC]

davoodoo, on 23 July 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

No ive been thinking 65 tons 6 ermed 2 lpl ebj...

I'll play against that with the current min range ATMs. It's too damn hot anywhere but a handful of maps.

[davoodoo]

MischiefSC, on 23 July 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'll play against that with the current min range ATMs. It's too damn hot anywhere but a handful of maps.

1.12/2 heat management
for comparison
1.2/2 is mad2c
and
1.25/2 is supernova.
and for is
1.15/2 is hbk4p.

hell 1.15/2 is dakka kodiak3.

I really dont complain about it, 3rd alpha shutdown with mad2c and vomitnova pulling 4.
24 heatsinks along with 18 tons of weaponry is a blessing only clans can get.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 July 2017 - 10:48 AM.

[Click]

I don't think people are understanding exactly how devastating ATMs can be at short range.

NTG-D and MAD Scorch can carry 144 damage alphas with 4 ATM12. ON1-IIC-A can do 136 with 3ATM12 + ATM9 but is way more agile. Are you useless at under 130m and over 550m? Sure, but that's what people call high risk-high reward, between 130-290m you can melt anything. ANYTHING.



That sole kill I had was one of the Stalkers, which I wrecked with a single Alpha.

Unless you get swarmed by lights or the enemy has a crapton of AMS, any pilot that is half decent at picking targets and positioning can easily pull 1000+ damage per match. You can literally put down anything other than an Atlas/KDK with one press of a button. I f*cking hate it. The thought of facing one of these in the battlefield makes me lose all desire to run anything but sniper builds, because if you like getting up close all it takes is a one second distraction, one enemy you didn't see and boom you're dead.

Which is why I'm gonna exploit the crap out of it for the next few weeks, the only way anything ever gets changed around here is to mess with whatever stupid metrics they pull from the servers. And I wholeheartedly encourage you all to do the same, try it for yourselves and you will see.

Edited by Click, 23 July 2017 - 11:39 AM.

[davoodoo]

1600 dmg with 1 kill and 8 assists...

im bashing my head on the table atm looking at this lvl of inefficient killing

Want to show me something spectacular?? show me 5 kills with 700 dmg and some assists and its not like its impossible with atms... ive scored that in "poor fragile atm boat hbk2c".

Edited by davoodoo, 23 July 2017 - 11:46 AM.

[Click]

They were putting up a decent fight (Promessa as always) and the NTG is clunky and hard to re position, so I was just tearing them up and letting the others finish them off.

But you should bash it harder, maybe eventually the point will come across.

Edited by Click, 23 July 2017 - 11:47 AM.

[davoodoo]

Click, on 23 July 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

They were putting up a decent fight (Promessa as always) and the NTG is clunky and hard to re position, so I was just tearing them up and letting the others finish them off.

But you should bash it harder, maybe eventually the point will come across.

What point, the one that we always repeat to assault lurm boats??

it goes something like that
No one gives a **** about your damage done since you spread it out too much achieving less than pinpoint weapons.
New missile weapon came out and ppl forgot even that within a matter of days...


4 lrm10a catapult, achieved the same result with less than half dmg...does it mean lurms are good weapon?? **** no.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 July 2017 - 12:08 PM.

[Zergling]

Well, I'm scoring fairly decent kill stats (for my skill level) with ATMs.

Eg, 9 battles in my Mad Cat II-2, I've scored 9 kills, 5 of which have been solo kills, plus another 6 MDD assists. While not as good as my kill stats in the ANH-1A, it is better than my Mad Cat II Deathstrike.

It is a very small sample, but my impression is that ATMs are perfectly capable of scoring kills.

[MischiefSC]

Here's the thing though.

ATMs do something that no other missiles do -

They are viable in a mixed loadout without being capped to 270m.

That is new. They lack precision but are so stupidly destructive in their purview they make up for inefficiency. Yes, boated ATMs are bad like boated LRMs are bad. Boated SRMs are good on fast mechs that can easily force a brawl or run if in a bad spot. They're alright for big brawlers but overall not as viable as laservomit.

ATMs however have the potential to make 2 or 3 M hardpoints plus some lasers and ballistics play close to straight Clan laservomit, which is top tier now. The goose peeps ghost heat wedding was the meta event of the year, shifting from short poke PPFLD to a bit more sustained peaking laser/ballistic/peeps. That makes space for some huge alpha ATM/ballistic builds. You get into that 120, 130 range (I've got some MAD CAT and scorch builds that do that) and you've got something with a place in the meta on some maps and modes.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 23 July 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

What point, the one that we always repeat to assault lurm boats??

it goes something like that
No one gives a **** about your damage done since you spread it out too much achieving less than pinpoint weapons.
New missile weapon came out and ppl forgot even that within a matter of days...


4 lrm10a catapult, achieved the same result with less than half dmg...does it mean lurms are good weapon?? **** no.

Pinpoint damage is the most efficient way to kill a mech, however if a mech has more than enough damage to blow the hole mech up, who cares in the end? A dead mech is a dead mech. You could even say that when a certain threshold in damage is met who cares about pinpoint. The sheer amount of damage of 4x12ATMs under 270m is just overpowering at that point. You cant even twist that damage because the hole mech will just blow up. Besides your flawed argumentation at this point however I do agree ATMs arent the best weapon out there. Too situational and perfect position isnt always possible.

It requires alot of teamwork to make them work and the benfits arent that big in the end. High risk high reward isnt really what competitive players usually look for. Laser vomit is low risk medium/high reward I think. Personally I prefer to use them as backup weapons. MPL work best for me with ATM. Full TBR-prime for the quirk bonus with 5xMPL, 2xATM6 and 2xLMGUN works for me so far.

[davoodoo]

Zergling, on 23 July 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

Well, I'm scoring fairly decent kill stats (for my skill level) with ATMs.

Eg, 9 battles in my Mad Cat II-2, I've scored 9 kills, 5 of which have been solo kills, plus another 6 MDD assists. While not as good as my kill stats in the ANH-1A, it is better than my Mad Cat II Deathstrike.

It is a very small sample, but my impression is that ATMs are perfectly capable of scoring kills.

Yeah its far better than what they shown

and yes they are capable, problem isnt that they are weak, problem is that they have minimum range and my personal problem is that ppl claim they are too strong... they really arent and huge damage numbers are just blown out as they are horribly spread to the point where they aren half as impactful.

I like atms, i see problem with minimum range and dont think they are stronger than srms.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 July 2017 - 12:48 PM.

[Zergling]

davoodoo, on 23 July 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Yeah its far better than what they shown

and yes they are capable, problem isnt that they are weak, problem is that they have minimum range and my personal problem is that ppl claim they are too strong... they really arent and huge damage numbers are just blown out as they are horribly spread to the point where they aren half as impactful.

I like atms, i see problem with minimum range and dont think they are stronger than srms.

Yeah, I really don't think they are too strong.

At short range, they are definitely weaker than SRMs (although more firepower can be crammed into a given amount of hardpoints with ATMs), but have the ability to shoot at longer ranges than SRMs.

The minimum range appears to be there because of their spread mechanic, which is like a cone. At very short range all the missiles are closely grouped, which would result in massive damage being focused into CTs if they didn't have min range, which would definitely cause balance problems.
The only way they could lose the minimum range without also nerfing their damage (which would suck), is to make the minimum/starting spread higher, to prevent the missiles from focusing like that.

If PGI doesn't want to rework their spread... then I'd settle for double missile health and increased damage at medium and long range (maybe 2.5 and 1.5 damage at the medium/long range brackets).

Edited by Zergling, 23 July 2017 - 01:24 PM.

[Click]

davoodoo, on 23 July 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

I am twelve years old and I like to scream

Listen bud, I'm not gonna enter a p*ssing contest with you. I don't care about you whether you see the problem or not, I get that you're all about m-muh efficiency and while I agree with you that PPFLD is ideal, I'll just say this:

At the range ATMs dish out their highest damage, neither spread nor speed are as big of a problem as you make it, even if the player has poor aim. A hundred and forty damage alpha and lock on ability more than make up for it.

But again, I encourage everyone to try it out and see for themselves.

Edited by Click, 23 July 2017 - 02:02 PM.

[Nesutizale]

My impression with ATM is that they work quite well in QP. People seam to fight more at the 120+ range where ATMs are realy good but in FP its either sniping or brawling...little in between.

Thats sometimes because of the maps design, for example in Siege mode...but it also happens on the other maps.

So its kinda of a mixed bag for me. I think a good middleground would be to either
1) bring the minimal down to 90m
2) have a reverse damage ramp from 0-120m

Most of the time I can't get a lock on people at 120m because they hide at that range or they come out of cover storming at you and then they are below 120m range.

Another thing is the flat trajectory. I find it hard to get used to that. I think they should get a variable trajectory if possible.
The further away the target is the higher the trajectory becomes.

[Devils Advocate]

I'm a fan of the weapon. It's a brawling weapon that encourages you to get out in the open and has a major crippling disadvantage while also not being completely useless at range. If you can get an enemy in the sweet spot it does a pretty gross amount of damage but that's the money shot you're looking for with the weapon and it isn't so simple to hit when the enemy is organized.

I'm a fan of any tech that changes the way you approach or defend and this encourages players to actually use their damn lock on information to figure out how to handle a situation.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

davoodoo you're missing a key piece of information from Click's picture. When someone scores 1600 that is indeed very high, with 1 kill seems almost pointless but it's not. He's actually melted off 1600+ damage to set up his team for an easier win (if they can shoot straight). If you're looking at efficiency you'd need to take his base ammo to start with and see how much he used vs how much damage landed. I can already tell 1600 damage is very high regardless of efficiency...

However, for himself, this build kinda lets him down (unless he's just after the money or the wins). I would love to have someone like that on my team each match, just yesterday in a Myst lynx in FW I had LRM support which saved me vs a Battle master which would have murdered me.

After ST I get the same issue like that picture with most of my sniping builds (I've given up with sniping due to the recent ppc/gauss nerf). I prior to the recent nerf I can do up to 900 damage with 0 kills (some games I had up to 3/4 kills), it was just not enough to finish that mech in red CT off and someone steals it (I have no issues with that).

Setting your team up for the win is more important however sometimes there is an small empty feeling

[Clanner Scum]

Well I'm averaging 700 damage per game with an ATM shadowcat. More with an ATM Hunstman. They're pretty damn strong. I've changed my opinion on them since they released. They're actually a bit strong IMO.

[Vellron2005]

The Unstoppable Puggernaut, on 23 July 2017 - 11:46 PM, said:

davoodoo you're missing a key piece of information from Click's picture. When someone scores 1600 that is indeed very high, with 1 kill seems almost pointless but it's not. He's actually melted off 1600+ damage to set up his team for an easier win (if they can shoot straight). If you're looking at efficiency you'd need to take his base ammo to start with and see how much he used vs how much damage landed. I can already tell 1600 damage is very high regardless of efficiency...

However, for himself, this build kinda lets him down (unless he's just after the money or the wins). I would love to have someone like that on my team each match, just yesterday in a Myst lynx in FW I had LRM support which saved me vs a Battle master which would have murdered me.

After ST I get the same issue like that picture with most of my sniping builds (I've given up with sniping due to the recent ppc/gauss nerf). I prior to the recent nerf I can do up to 900 damage with 0 kills (some games I had up to 3/4 kills), it was just not enough to finish that mech in red CT off and someone steals it (I have no issues with that).

Setting your team up for the win is more important however sometimes there is an small empty feeling

Personally, I don't care what you use.. if it's ATMs, LRMs, Lasers, Dakka.. don't matter... if you can do 700+ damage in a QP match, you are good and your mech is being used effectively. If you do 1000+, you are awesome.

And if you do 1600 damage, even if you didn't have a single kill or KMDD.. you are still carrying hard.

I know people who say "LRMs just spread damage, and even high damage scores with LRMs are meaningless because it's not effective".. They completely disregard that all that spread damage softens up the enemy and allows easier kills.. Same with ATMs and LBX.. so yeah..

Carry hard and even if you don't get kills and KMDD's (which I value a lot more than kills), you still good in my book..

Edited by Vellron2005, 24 July 2017 - 01:17 AM.

[davoodoo]

The Unstoppable Puggernaut, on 23 July 2017 - 11:46 PM, said:

davoodoo you're missing a key piece of information from Click's picture. When someone scores 1600 that is indeed very high, with 1 kill seems almost pointless but it's not. He's actually melted off 1600+ damage to set up his team for an easier win (if they can shoot straight). If you're looking at efficiency you'd need to take his base ammo to start with and see how much he used vs how much damage landed. I can already tell 1600 damage is very high regardless of efficiency...

Youre missing one thing from my response.

These ppl claim atm is too strong and allows you to destroy or crriple mech in one salvo because zomg 144 dmg from 4 atm12...
Picture shows that it clearly isnt the case, it just produces dmg and little kills.

The discussion was never whether atm sux, but whether its op...

Edited by davoodoo, 24 July 2017 - 01:22 AM.