201 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

I found them to be pretty decent can openers, have 2 mechs fire their salvos on assault and look what goes orange/red

Edited by davoodoo, 22 July 2017 - 05:50 PM.

[MischiefSC]

davoodoo, on 22 July 2017 - 05:03 PM, said:

1st i dont build for duels, i build for some actual group play
2nd you really want to pack 2 7 tons launchers with at least 6 tons of ammo as backup?? well i guess you must be running 75tons+ with that.
3rd wheres that ridiculous damage potential if you dont actually commit to boating?

I guess i can build 2 uac5 2 atm12 ntg, itll be hard to find someone calling that build good though and in actual duel, ill fire atms maybe twice(out of which 1 will be at 3dmg) before i have to just finish enemy(which will still have armor intact) with uacs.

Orion IIC, uac10, 2cerml, 3x9. 115 damage over a double tapped alpha. Very sustainable if you do 2/1 with 0.5 sec delay on the ATMs.

2x12s, 4xmpl, TBR 100 pts at 300m and, again, very heat efficient for the damage.

2x9, 1x12, 2xuac10 Mad Cat IIC. Stone cold killer, especially in FW in Conquest matches where its not all pushing. 130 pts I can keep up for days.

Ballistics + ATMs are great because velocity and range is great for both and the ballistics are cooler.

Mad Dog with 2x12, 4xcerml IS nice for a 60 tonner.

ATMs are not LRMs or SRMs nor should they be. They are mid range firepower in missile hardpoints that work with UACs and other stare down weapons. If they had 1 damage/missile even inside 120m I would have them as regularly as SRMs in my drop deck. However with 120m min range I take them once in a blue moon just for diversity and never when we're dropping against real teams.

They're for farming in QP when I can count on the other side being timid and bad and losing regularly doesn't matter.

Edited by MischiefSC, 22 July 2017 - 06:03 PM.

[davoodoo]

Im not even gonna go into orions though neither looks very appealing

tbr
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...baeb62bc2cf8a8b
i guess something along the lines of this
31% efficiency i wouldnt call cold
also its kinda waste, you added 25 tons, 2 mplas and armor over 50 ton hbk2c to run very fast heavy with intention to stay at 120-400m.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0a4aa1e48b92e3b
this is hbk2c, i could jump to xl275 and drop to ermeds, but i find it sufficiently fast


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d43a6b5701ef71f
personally i would go with this
less damage but much cooler and less staretime also less suspectible to ams
takes advantage of that engine to close the gap with enough heat sinks to stay fighting.

Mad dog
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5a08d6ede6d6030
hot as **** unless you dropped on ammo but again i can burn through 7 tons on that hbk so i cant imagine running less

[1453 R]

Khobai. Mischief. A question for you two.

Would either of you ever use ATMs again under the proposed 2.4 / 2.0 / 1.6 damage values?

The 'balanced' damage values where ATMs are supposedly 'good' at all ranges...except they're massively outperformed by SRMs in close (SRMs already vastly outperform HE ATMs on a per-ton basis, ATMs simply have enough tube counts to counterweight against that with much larger individual launchers), and LRMs are...frankly not part of the discussion either way, but they're also vastly more damage, damage/ton, DPS, and everything else than ATMs.

The game already hammers any sort of generalist hard. 2.4-damage HE ATMs are...basically ignorable. Unless the other guy has six missile hardpoints and somehow enough tonnage to mount a 9 or up in all of them, 2.4-damage ATMs with the low tube counts of small ATM launchers means the 3 and the 6 just fall completely off the map. Utterly worthless. The 9 and 12 almost sorta half-compete with SRMs, save that you can load three SRM launchers for any one 9, and four SRM launchers for any one 12. yeah, you need the hardpoints to do that, but 'Mechs with those hardpoint counts exist. All the current values do is ensure that 'mechs without those hardpoint counts, with access to only two or three missile hardpoints, don't get to use missiles.

ER ammo will not ever be good. It can't be good. it's fundamentally not allowed to be good when it's drawing from the same bins as HE rounds, and no - manual ammo switching is not the solution. Manual ammo switching is a miserable awful horrible idea that merely shifts the problem up one stage - ER ammo is never worth loading in the first place when the same single ton and slot could be used for HE, or even Standard, munitions. And also you waste half your missiles on forgetting to switch your feeds to the right range bracket. Just...no. At least this way you have the option of expending a few racks of ER ammo to chase wounded prey, score assist, or heckle someone into keeping their head down without having to give up ninety missiles' worth of HE or Standard damage.

ATMs are heavy, bulky, and often fit poorly on weirdly-configured OmniMechs, forcing you to stuff ammo in unnatural places or forego backup/support systems or equipment because the ATM launchers themselves are too fat to let you sling anything worthwhile. Their damage efficiency per ton of ammo is poor even with HE loads, mandating either excellent trigger discipline or excessive ammo loads. I like the weapons as they stand right now, but I can already tell they're on a knife edge of 'Gud'. 2.4-damage anemic HE loads unable to even pretend to be worth your time in a scrum would mean everyone takes all their ATM launchers off all their 'Mechs and that the Clans effectively receive no new gear worth noting in the Civil War update, since heavy lasers are...highly questionable. If for valid reasons.

If you wouldn't use ATMs with 2.4-damage HE loads - and I'm almost entirely certain neither of you two would - ...why are you pushing for 2.4-damage HE loads that would cause you to drop the weapons like potatoes and never run them again?

[Pariah Devalis]

I know I wouldn't. Anything less than 2.7 damage at sub 300 would be a waste of time. Adjusting mid and er UP, however, would be nice. 2.7-2.35-2.0 scaling would keep it relevant across all ranges.

I actually like the stepped damage mechanic, however. That minimum range is an absolute pain, though. I'd be OK with the minimum range if the missile health and/or speed was enough so that 2 tons of AMS didn't utterly gut your ability to do damage to a target with your 14+ tons of weapons, but alternatively I'd want the weapon to be more potent at longer ranges at a very slight decrease of the close range firepower potential to get rid of the minimum range issue.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 23 July 2017 - 06:44 AM.

[davoodoo]

Pariah Devalis, on 23 July 2017 - 06:37 AM, said:

I know I wouldn't. Anything less than 2.7 damage at sub 300 would be a waste of time. Adjusting mid and er UP, however, would be nice. 2.7-2.35-2.0 scaling would keep it relevant across all ranges.

Except at that it would be better than lrms until enemy gets ams...

[Pariah Devalis]

davoodoo, on 23 July 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

Except at that it would be better than lrms until enemy gets ams...

How, exactly? You cannot indirectly fire, deals the same total damage, but is more vulnerable to AMS.

Separate issue: LRM really should get a velocity buff.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 23 July 2017 - 06:51 AM.

[Twinkleblade]

ATM is one of those weapons that really needed alternate fire modes. Short would be MRM-likish 3dmg/missile and long range what we have right now with 0/2/1 damage/missile.

Besides that however I find ATM only good when your team can prevent enemies from just walking to you. Stay around 100m proximity of your assaults and you can do good. Keeping yourself in 3damage range for ATMs is really hard, maybe not worth the effort considering all its drawbacks.

One thing that annoyed me the most is that the timberwolf uses the large LRM missile boxes for ATM9/12. Should use smaller boxes. Hope they give ATM smaller missile boxes for those mechs that gain those boxes when they fix dynamic weapon geometry.

[davoodoo]

Pariah Devalis, on 23 July 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

How, exactly? You cannot indirectly fire, deals the same total damage, but is more vulnerable to AMS.

Separate issue: LRM really should get a velocity buff.

What same dmg
atm12 at 2.35 will do 28.2 dmg per salvo at 5s cd at 7 tons
or 4.05 dmg per ton with 5.64 dps

lrm20 will do 20 dmg per salvo at 4.6s cd at 5 tons
or 4 dmg per ton with 4.35 dps

lrm20a will do 20 dmg per salvo at 4.6s cd at 6 tons
or 3.33 dmg per ton with 4.35dps.

on the other hand now atm12 does 24 dmg per salvo at 5s cd at 7tons
or 3.42 dmg per ton with 4.8 dps.
This is barely worse than lrm...

Edited by davoodoo, 23 July 2017 - 07:14 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

davoodoo, on 23 July 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

What same dmg
atm12 at 2.35 will do 28.2 dmg per salvo at 5s cd at 7 tons
or 4.05 dmg per ton with 5.64 dps

lrm20 will do 20 dmg per salvo at 4.6s cd at 5 tons
or 4 dmg per ton with 4.35 dps

lrm20a will do 20 dmg per salvo at 4.6s cd at 6 tons
or 3.33 dmg per ton with 4.35dps.

on the other hand now atm12 does 24 dmg per salvo at 5s cd at 7tons
or 3.42 dmg per ton with 4.8 dps.
This is barely worse than lrm...

Oh, you're referencing mid range damage. I'm referencing long range in an attempt to make ER ammo not total crap if the target idea is to make it worth using through its range bracket. Then yes. With 2.35 damage at mid, the damage is higher than LRM. The susceptibility to AMS, however, is much higher, and it still cannot indirectly fire.

[MischiefSC]

davoodoo, on 22 July 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

Im not even gonna go into orions though neither looks very appealing

tbr
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...baeb62bc2cf8a8b
i guess something along the lines of this
31% efficiency i wouldnt call cold
also its kinda waste, you added 25 tons, 2 mplas and armor over 50 ton hbk2c to run very fast heavy with intention to stay at 120-400m.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0a4aa1e48b92e3b
this is hbk2c, i could jump to xl275 and drop to ermeds, but i find it sufficiently fast


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d43a6b5701ef71f
personally i would go with this
less damage but much cooler and less staretime also less suspectible to ams
takes advantage of that engine to close the gap with enough heat sinks to stay fighting.

Mad dog
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5a08d6ede6d6030
hot as **** unless you dropped on ammo but again i can burn through 7 tons on that hbk so i cant imagine running less

Except the Orion will literally blow 1 ST off your HBK with one alpha. Maybe 1 clean hit and a laser followup shot.

There's several kinds of efficiency. Sustainable DPS has a value, absolutely. I have a lot of builds based on that, KComruns the hard push game like nobody else in FW. However the huge alpha has an efficiency all of its own. Take the EBJ Two-Sixer. 2 LPLs, six Cermls. Way to hot to sustain but the ability to put two precision hits on a single location that does enough damage to cripple or kill that mech in 2 trades is hugely powerful both when pugging and in a team.

Same concept - the builds I listed above would demolish the builds you listed because by the time the Orion is at heat cap or you push from 300 to 120m its blown half your mech away and can fi ish you with just the UAC and cermls. Heat efficiency and mobility are irrelevant if I'm crippling you before I heat cap.

The point of the ATM builds I've used and had success with is to get 2 or 3 full alphas, which is about 200-300 damage. Then switch to ballistics to finish them off or leave them totally crippled. The ATMs lack precision but the have massive damage. Rip open legs or ST, finish the component with direct fire and if need be move back in to cover to cool. A one legged, one ST enemy isn't going anywhere. Cool a few seconds then amble over and mop up.

Again, I'll take any of muy builds over any of yours. If you're in a fast mech with go long range sniper or fast stick and move brawler. Heavy mid range weapons on a fast mech are a poor choice. I wouldn't put ATMs on a Linebacker - it's got the speed to force a brawl.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 22 July 2017 - 06:49 PM, said:

Khobai. Mischief. A question for you two.

Would either of you ever use ATMs again under the proposed 2.4 / 2.0 / 1.6 damage values?

The 'balanced' damage values where ATMs are supposedly 'good' at all ranges...except they're massively outperformed by SRMs in close (SRMs already vastly outperform HE ATMs on a per-ton basis, ATMs simply have enough tube counts to counterweight against that with much larger individual launchers), and LRMs are...frankly not part of the discussion either way, but they're also vastly more damage, damage/ton, DPS, and everything else than ATMs.

The game already hammers any sort of generalist hard. 2.4-damage HE ATMs are...basically ignorable. Unless the other guy has six missile hardpoints and somehow enough tonnage to mount a 9 or up in all of them, 2.4-damage ATMs with the low tube counts of small ATM launchers means the 3 and the 6 just fall completely off the map. Utterly worthless. The 9 and 12 almost sorta half-compete with SRMs, save that you can load three SRM launchers for any one 9, and four SRM launchers for any one 12. yeah, you need the hardpoints to do that, but 'Mechs with those hardpoint counts exist. All the current values do is ensure that 'mechs without those hardpoint counts, with access to only two or three missile hardpoints, don't get to use missiles.

ER ammo will not ever be good. It can't be good. it's fundamentally not allowed to be good when it's drawing from the same bins as HE rounds, and no - manual ammo switching is not the solution. Manual ammo switching is a miserable awful horrible idea that merely shifts the problem up one stage - ER ammo is never worth loading in the first place when the same single ton and slot could be used for HE, or even Standard, munitions. And also you waste half your missiles on forgetting to switch your feeds to the right range bracket. Just...no. At least this way you have the option of expending a few racks of ER ammo to chase wounded prey, score assist, or heckle someone into keeping their head down without having to give up ninety missiles' worth of HE or Standard damage.

ATMs are heavy, bulky, and often fit poorly on weirdly-configured OmniMechs, forcing you to stuff ammo in unnatural places or forego backup/support systems or equipment because the ATM launchers themselves are too fat to let you sling anything worthwhile. Their damage efficiency per ton of ammo is poor even with HE loads, mandating either excellent trigger discipline or excessive ammo loads. I like the weapons as they stand right now, but I can already tell they're on a knife edge of 'Gud'. 2.4-damage anemic HE loads unable to even pretend to be worth your time in a scrum would mean everyone takes all their ATM launchers off all their 'Mechs and that the Clans effectively receive no new gear worth noting in the Civil War update, since heavy lasers are...highly questionable. If for valid reasons.

If you wouldn't use ATMs with 2.4-damage HE loads - and I'm almost entirely certain neither of you two would - ...why are you pushing for 2.4-damage HE loads that would cause you to drop the weapons like potatoes and never run them again?

They would be broken as **** on heavies as they would be a straight SRM upgrade. I can take an SRM brawler that also does SRM damage out to like 800m? At that point SRMs are just for small mechs, they become like small lasers - inferior, only useful for mechs that can't take something bigger.

You can almost always force a brawl. W is faster than S. If ATMs are stronger at point blank then SRMs are useless. Sustained DPS is relevant if you're shooting a sub 60 pt alpha - if my Orion in that model is hitting for 98.8 from 0 to 300m, 88 from 300-600 and some damage beyond that but it's already out of my primary engagement range.... why would I take 3xsrm6A instead of 3xATM9? The abity to hit as hard or harder at 3x the range?

I would take ATMs over SRMs for the same reason a BLR 2C takes 5xLPL instead of 5xMPL. Yes, the MPLs are cooler and "more sustainable". However the LPLs have more range and hit harder.

ATMs need to be more like 1/2.7/1.8 damage brackets or they replace SRMs and become the preimenent brawling missile weapon on anything with the weight to carry them. All this crap about "sustainable SRMs" is the same logic that justifies worthless IS small lasers. Nobody uses them because sustainable DPS is irrelevant if the other guy cripples you in 2 hits.

[davoodoo]

MischiefSC, on 23 July 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Except the Orion will literally blow 1 ST off your HBK with one alpha. Maybe 1 clean hit and a laser followup shot.

You really overestimate effectiveness of atms...

Go to forest colony and place yourself to the side of hunchback between 120 and 270m.
It usually took 3-5 volleys from dual atm12 to take out side and usually same volley destroyed ct...yes that silly hunchback soaked 216-360 worth of damage from atms despite being immobile dummy.

Welcome to the world of missiles, shitton of empty damage but little actual consequence...

If ill actually lose a torso then majority of damage came from uac10 and 2 mlas as theyre quaranteed to destroy ct in 3 salvos while leaving st at 4 hp after 2 salvos...

Practical purpose of atms is to act as either can opener weakening armor for actual pinpoint weapons or as hacksaw to cut off damaged compenents.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 July 2017 - 09:03 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Package deal. On a moving target the ATMs hit legs a lot. So I usually pull a leg first. At that point you're pretty screwed.

You're also incorrect on the damage - the bulk of the damage you're taking is from the ATMs, however the UAC and MLs are what's finishing off specific components. So you get smashed for 114 damage, I'll usually ain low if your legs are exposed and in that first salvo it eats a lot of armor and one leg. The second does the same thing to the ST. At that point I'm usually moving into cover unless we're totally alone. Had that happen the other night in FW, was Conquest and I ran I to a Stalker at about 300m, cover had us isolated from everyone else and I pulled a leg, then a ST and arm, then the other ST, then CT. Farmed the **** out of him. He had LRMs so I could shoot, step back I to cover against the LRMs, then back out again. I took a little damage from stray LRMs and MLs at 300m but I probably did 500 damage to the poor guy.

Yes, it's the UACs and MLs that kill you. However it's the ATMs that let them do that in one volley. A 2xuac10, 4xcerml TBR or EBJ may be close to the damage but is still 1 full alpha and about 35 damage/alpha weaker. More focus, sure, but 40% less damage/trade is a lot.

HBKs are weak missile boats for Clans because they're so squishy. They're strong laservomit though.

[davoodoo]

for 114 dmg out of which maybe 40 goes into one location and thats due to magic of pinpoint uac10 and mlas.

You said so yourself, you blown a 1.5ton of atm ammo on stalker and still had to finish it with other weapons... iim having better track record firing mrms at 400m and ppl dont even try to argue that they are absolutely trash at such distance...

Youre looking at empty damage... no one applauds 1.5k dmg lurmboats because they do basically the same thing as you do...

[MischiefSC]

Except the Stalker was crippled in 2 trades. Yes, if I'd been running, say, laservomit MADIIC I could have chewed a ST off in about 2x alpha, then cool, then ideally finish.

The point is that the ATMs were as effective in the initial trade and disabling the enemy. A total of 5x9x3 ATMs fired. So, yeah, about 1.5 tons of missiles. It would have been about 1.5 tons of UAC ammo with a KDK3 or similar dakka boat.

Which, again, is the point. About comparable to other options. Not better, just comparable. The problem is that at sub 120m the laservomit is still fine but ATMs are worthless. As such ATMs are not as good. If they had any value in that space they would be viable

[davoodoo]

Most of the mechs are crippled in 2 trades...

thing is that with laservomit you can actually choose what will get that damage while 2atm12 will spread 72 dmg all scratching arms and legs which you really have no interest of targeting unless they are already damaged.


You really make atms sound horrible... and yet you want to nerf them to 1/2.7/1.8?? ill just assume that 2.7 is short range dmg.

On the other hand im actually using my hbr as 50 ton weapon platform which can carry either dual uac10 or dual atm12 with 7 tons of ammo.
Im scoring pretty decent damage and quite a few kills opening armor for team or blowing off exposed parts without blowing 500 damage worth of ammo on single target even while firing at 300m+ and ofc ill get horribly murdered by anything competent that gets within 120m without any hope to fight them off.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 July 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[iliketurtles87]

i load up my Orion with just 3 ATM-12 and got in 2 of 4 games 4 Kills 800 damage. Its absolutly wrecks things in close range, but they suck at Long range. BTW the Minimum range has to stay or they become way to OP.

[ShadeofHades]

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. What about, rather than focusing on the mid and ER ammo, we had ATMs balanced around HE and mid ammo? Chop off the long range, let LRMs continue to LRM. I know I'd look at them with more interest if we had no min range, 3 dmg out to 270, and 2 out to the 540-600m range where they pop.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

I bought em, tried em, ditched em.

I feel the only good ATM's are the ones in the wall that provide you money.