201 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Willard Phule, on 21 July 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

The problem I have with the minimum range is that if you're going to come up with a "compromise" because you simply can't code the weapon the way it was originally intended, like they did with Clan LRMS, then treat it the same way.

Clan LRMs were never supposed to have a minimum range. PGI decided that they would have damage take a dropoff below a certain distance. Why would that faction take a step back technologically and design a weapon with a hard minimum range? And since minimum range is only part of the least used ammunition type, why impose it on the "compromised" ammo that gives you the best of both worlds?

The other issue is how easily AMS takes it down. These are supposed to be larger than LRMs. So large, in fact, that the most you can shove into a launcher is 12. One would think they should be a little harder to shoot down. As it is, not even a cloud of ATM 36 makes it through 3 AMS.

I'm not arguing that the missiles are perfect; I'm mostly arguing in favor of leaving the damage bands alone. Because there's two ways you can 'fix' ATMs:

1.) Erase the min, leave the damage bands alone. The weapons are brutal, but also horrifyingly vulnerable to AMS, which gives other missile systems (namely the Streak SRM launcher, which ATM HE ammo otherwise completely obliterates) a niche - Streaks are much more effective against AMS, making them more overall reliable.

2.) Increase missile health to normalize AMS' effectiveness against the launchers. This almost necessitates the min for the same reason as above - an AMS-normalized, no-min ATM launcher Shatners messily all over every Streak system ever designed.

This is why folks like Khobai are pushing the narrower damage bands; they want no mins, they want better performance against AMS, and they figure that tightening up the damage disparity's a good way to pay for those two upswings. I don't. I feel like ATMs that don't hit like the hammers of a thousand pagan forge gods all swung at once inside the HE band are ATMs which are losing the point of being ATMs. People make a big deal out of the weapon's flexibility, and flexibility is indeed good - but an integral part of that flex is that HE ammo kicks *** in close range. The ER ammo can net you hits, finish wounded foes, and all that other stuff at a distance, and the Standard ammo is not actually terrible, but the HE is the Gud Schitte.

Making the Gud Schitte less gud is not somehow going to make ATMs more gud.

[Khobai]

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1) Erase the min, leave the damage bands alone.

no. the damage absolutely needs to be decreased. you cannot have a weapon that allows people to do 144 damage. not at any range band.


heres how I would fix ATMs:

-get rid of the min range and reduce the damage per missile at short range

-make ATMs more viable at ALL range bands, instead of being completely broken at 120m-270m. theyre supposed to be good at ALL range bands not lopsidedly powerful at one range band. Although the max range of ATMs should be reduced to 810m.

-increase ATM missile health from 1 to 1.5

-increase LRM velocity so LRMs are better at longer ranges. LRMs should not be medium range missiles. theyre long range missiles. ideally they should accelerate gradually upto the higher velocity. This would help LRMs stay competitive against ATMs.

-get rid of ECM stealth to help ATMs and LRMs at longer ranges. only stealth armor should grant stealth. since clans would no longer have stealth, their AMS should get a buff in exchange for not having stealth.

clans shouldnt have stealth anyway because its against their code of honor. And ECM should not be granting stealth anyway because its not supposed to be a function of ECM. Instead ECM should get two new abilities: ghost mode a new mode that creates fake radar contacts. And sensor network disruption the same ability it used to have in beta where it cut people off from sharing sensor info with their team.

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2017 - 01:37 PM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

no. the damage absolutely needs to be decreased. you cannot have a weapon that allows people to do 144 damage. not at any range band.

do i need to pull my 120 dmg mauler again?? and theres nightstar hero who will be even better at it...

thats apparently acceptable... up to 450m no less...

Edited by davoodoo, 22 July 2017 - 01:31 PM.

[Khobai]

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do i need to pull my 120 dmg mauler again?? a

1) 120 damage is not 144 damage. 144 damage is 20% more damage. 120 damage is borderline acceptable (at least at medium range, its probably too good at short range) because of the terrible spread of MRMs but 144 with the tighter spread of ATMs is definitely not acceptable.

2) 120 damage at short range is probably not okay either and MRMs likely need some kindve linear damage dropoff under 120m so they cant be used effectively at pointblank ranges and dont make SRMs obsolete. MRMs also need to be buffed so theyre better at medium range which is the range theyre supposed to be used at (i.e. faster velocity, higher tube count, lower volley delay, etc... but I would not decrease the spread)

I would kick both in the nuts. Neither should be capable of doing that kindve damage.

So your lame excuse of the mauler can do it so the supernova should be able to do it too is not really gonna fly. because neither should be able to do it. curbstomp all the things.

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2017 - 01:47 PM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

1) 120 damage is not 144 damage. 144 damage is 20% more damage. 120 damage is borderline acceptable because of the terrible spread of MRMs but 144 with the tighter spread of ATMs is definitely is not acceptable.

2) 120 damage is probably not okay either and MRMs likely need some kindve linear damage dropoff under 120m so they dont make SRMs obsolete. MRMs also need to be buffed so theyre better at medium range which is the range theyre supposed to be used at (i.e. faster velocity, higher tube count, lower volley delay, etc...)

1)at 40% reduced range, thats the point, shorter ranged weapons have higher dmg compensate...

2)im done, whats even the point of having new tech...weapon which is considered subpar at everything that doesnt involve immobile targets at point blank is now too strong...

i wonder if you advocate for nerfing of triple uac20 direwolf cause you forgotten ghost heat exist and doesnt allow you to fire more than either 2 atm12 or 2 mrm30 with lower penatlies being applied to mrm30...

4 atm12 will do 49 heat, 4 mrm30 will do only 43.5
Hell even 4 mrm40 will do 57.. now just 100 tonner with proper missile hardpoint setup...

Edited by davoodoo, 22 July 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[Zergling]

Letsee... I just ran the numbers, and ATM9/12 has same spread as Clan LRM15/20 with Artemis.

cLRM15 + Artemis = 0.78 DPS/ton
cLRM20 + Artemis = 0.72 DPS/ton
ATM9 @ 3 damage = 1.08 DPS/ton
ATM9 @ 2 damage = 0.72 DPS/ton
ATM9 @ 1 damage = 0.36 DPS/ton
ATM12 @ 3 damage = 1.03 DPS/ton
ATM12 @ 2 damage = 0.69 DPS/ton
ATM12 @ 1 damage = 0.34 damage/ton

So by the time the ATMs hit 2 damage per missile, they are already inferior to Artemis LRMs; the 3 damage is the only reason the ATMs have any point in existing.

If the ATMs were reduced to 2.4 damage maximum, the ATM9 would peak at 0.86 DPS/ton; that is only barely better than Clan LRM15, so it really wouldn't be worth using.

[Khobai]

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at 40% reduced range, thats the point, shorter ranged weapons have higher dmg compensate...

except ATMs and MRMs arnt supposed to be short ranged weapons

ATMs are supposed to be a hybrid SHORT/MEDIUM/LONG range weapon. ATMs should not be doing extreme damage at short range either, instead they should be doing decent damage at all ranges.

MRMs are supposed to be MEDIUM range weapons. They should not be doing extreme damage at short range.

It is not the role of either weapon to be doing extreme damage at short range.

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So by the time the ATMs hit 2 damage per missile, they are already inferior to Artemis LRMs; the 3 damage is the only reason the ATMs have any point in existing.

ATMs go 200m/s though. You do need to factor that in.

So at medium range, on flat terrain with no obstacles, an ATM9 doing 18 damage is still better than an LRM20 doing 20 damage.

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2017 - 02:06 PM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

except ATMs and MRMs arnt supposed to be short ranged weapons

ATMs are supposed to be a hybrid SHORT/MEDIUM/LONG range weapon. ATMs should not be doing extreme damage at short range either, instead they should be doing decent damage at all ranges.

MRMs are supposed to be MEDIUM range weapons. They should not be doing extreme damage at short range.

It is not the role of either weapon to be doing massive damage at short range.

I wonder if they werent supposed to do such dmg why did they do in tt??

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

except ATMs and MRMs arnt supposed to be short ranged weapons

ATMs are supposed to be a hybrid SHORT/MEDIUM/LONG range weapon. ATMs should not be doing extreme damage at short range either, instead they should be doing decent damage at all ranges.

MRMs are supposed to be MEDIUM range weapons. They should not be doing extreme damage at short range.

It is not the role of either weapon to be doing extreme damage at short range.

I was pretty sure the point of ATMs was to do extreme damage up close while still being viable mid range and still able to scratch some paint at long range.

[Khobai]

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I wonder if they werent supposed to do such dmg why did they do in tt??

because tabletop had missile hits table, MWO does not

derp.

when you fired an ATM12 in tabletop for example, probably only 8 missiles would hit because of the missile hits table. not all 12. or an MRM30, maybe only 18 of the missiles would hit. not all 30.

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I was pretty sure the point of ATMs was to do extreme damage up close while still being viable mid range and still able to scratch some paint at long range.

nope.

you cant combine the best parts of all three ammo types and still have ATMs be balanced.

if you have ATMs be good at short range, they should be incapable of hitting at medium and long range. because thats how it is in tabletop. the short range ammo type is only good at short range. the short range ammo type also doesnt have a min range.

The way ATMs should work in MWO is they should be an average of all three ammo types but with no min range. They should be viable at all ranges. Instead of being broken at 120m-270m and barely worth using at other ranges.

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2017 - 02:43 PM.

[davoodoo]

I dont even want to know what you propose for hag40 or mml9 khobai

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

because tabletop had missile hits table, MWO does not

derp.

in place of that it got spread and staggered fire so they arent all hitting same spot.

derp...

Edited by davoodoo, 22 July 2017 - 02:10 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

because tabletop had missile hits table, MWO does not

derp.



nope.

you cant combine the best parts of all three ammo types and still have ATMs be balanced.

if you have ATMs be good at short range, they should be incapable of hitting at medium and long range. because thats how it is in tabletop. the short range ammo type is only good at short range. the short range ammo type also doesnt have a min range.

And that's why you give it a min range so that it has all those 3 good parts but still has a min range to balance it. Besides that, in TT everyone would just bring HE and standard and skip out on ER as much as possible, we don't have ammo swapping here, but if we did I'm sure everyone would do the same.

[Khobai]

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in place of that it got spread and staggered fire so they arent all hitting same spot.

but in tabletop a good portion of the missiles didnt hit at all because of the missile hits table. where in MWO you can drive your MRM120 boat right up next to someone and hit with all 120 missiles.

and in tabletop they hit different locations too. so whats your point? the missiles didnt all hit the same spot in tabletop. you rolled seperate hit locations for each cluster of missiles.

so yeah an ATM12 in MWO is far stronger than an ATM12 in tabletop. you could almost never do 144 damage with four ATM12s in tabletop. And you couldnt do 120 damage with MRMs either.

so to answer your question of why it was allowed in tabletop. it wasnt.

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And that's why you give it a min range so that it has all those 3 good parts but still has a min range to balance it. Besides that, in TT everyone would just bring HE and standard and skip out on ER as much as possible, we don't have ammo swapping here, but if we did I'm sure everyone would do the same.

but giving it a min range is self-defeating when the point of the weapon system is to be decent at all ranges. provided its not better than srms at short range or better than lrms at long range.

ATMs should be uniformly good from 0-810m. They should not be broken from 120m-270m and useless at other ranges. Thats not in the spirit of the weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2017 - 02:46 PM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

but in tabletop a good portion of the missiles didnt hit at all because of the missile hits table.

and in tabletop they hit different locations too. so whats your point? the missiles didnt all hit the same spot in tabletop. you rolled seperate hit locations for each cluster of missiles.

Yeah, neither they do in mwo if you fire at intended range.
On the other hand quite a large part of laser fire didnt hit, but pgi didnt include hit table for lasers...

My point is that spread emulates that mechanic or rather that mechanic emualtes spread, you couldnt puzzle that out??

Edited by davoodoo, 22 July 2017 - 02:20 PM.

[Khobai]

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Yeah, neither they do in mwo if you fire at intended range.

I agree which is why MRMs doing 120 damage at medium range is probably fine. the spread keeps them in check

the issue is when theyre fired at short range and virtually all of them hit. MRMs are not supposed to do massive amounts of damage at short range. again its not in the spirit of the weapon system. it also infringes upon the role of SRMs.

which is why I feel MRMs need some kindve linear damage dropoff under 120m. That prevents them from being abused at short ranges where all the missiles hit. And it keeps SRMs more relevant.


ATMs on the other hand are just plain wrong in MWO. They shouldnt be niche missiles that are broken as !@#$ between 120m-270m and damn near useless at other ranges. Nor should they have a min range at all.

ATMs should be a flexible/versatile weapons thats uniformly good at all ranges between 0m-810m. As long as theyre not better than SRMs or LRMs in their respective range bands.

They need their min range removed, they need their short range damage reduced, and they need to be made more uniformly effective at all ranges (id reel in their max range to 810m though). They also need more missile health so AMS doesnt tear them up. They should be the complete opposite of a niche weapon, they should be one of the most diverse and flexible weapons in the game.


I would also increase the velocity of LRMs. that would make LRMs better at longer ranges. LRMs should be a long range missile not a medium range missile like they are now. By increasing the velocity of LRMs and extending their effective range, it allows you to make ATMs better at the in-between ranges.

Lastly I would remove ECM stealth from the game to help LRMs and ATMs at longer ranges too. Only stealth armor should grant stealth. And you can read my previous post above to see how exactly I would get rid of stealth and change ECM. But ECM should not grant stealth, its not supposed to, its always been broken as !@#$ in MWO, and its time for it to go away.

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2017 - 02:45 PM.

[MischiefSC]

It's not just that you can blast out 120+ damage at 300m with ATMs. It's that you can do so 3 or 4 times in a row in a heat efficient manner that's the issue with the 3 damage ATMs.

[davoodoo]

MischiefSC, on 22 July 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

It's not just that you can blast out 120+ damage at 300m with ATMs. It's that you can do so 3 or 4 times in a row in a heat efficient manner that's the issue with the 3 damage ATMs.

Yeah ok, but then atm12 have that funny thing called ghost heat which caps their usage at 2, maybe youll fit 3 somehow, but itll get hot...
Same as mrm30, but you can easily fire 3 of them.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yeah ok, but then atm12 have that funny thing called ghost heat which caps their usage at 2, maybe youll fit 3 somehow, but itll get hot...
Same as mrm30, but you can easily fire 3 of them.

you just fire 2 then 2 more a half second later. no ghost heat.

firing them half a second apart is not keeping their damage in check

but more than that its about the spirit of the weapons. MRMs should not do massive short range damage and completely outclass SRMs. thats not at all in the spirit of MRMs. MRMs should peak in effectiveness at medium range not short range.

and the spirit of ATMs is not to be a super niche weapon thats only good in one tiny range band. SRMs are an example of a niche weapon. ATMs are the complete opposite of a niche weapon though, theyre supposed to be viable at all ranges. Not one specific range.

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2017 - 02:55 PM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 22 July 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

you just fire 2 then 2 more a half second later.

firing them half a second apart is not keeping their damage in check

By that logic
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=394&l=9adcd5ff751a6a25f41b29e34621055287747afe
pls nerf srm...
ill fire 4 then 0.5s another 5...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...94ca7c2faf7b588
imagine that 55 tonner, itll zip around at 81kph, fire 40 and then another 40 while my as7s can only do 91.6 after doubletapping with uac20

You just cant have that kind of dmg.

Edited by davoodoo, 22 July 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

You just cant have that kind of dmg.

youve just proven my point of why mrms need to be changed

srms do less damage at shorter range than mrms.


its perfectly fine for srms to only do like 100 damage at 270m.

but when mrms do 120 damage at 270m, on top of being able to do damage past 270m

it kindve makes SRMs obsolete...

so the effectiveness of MRMs at short range needs to be curbstomped in order to keep SRMs relevant. And MRMs need to be more effective at medium range because thats where their effectiveness should peak.

MRMs should have a linear damage dropoff under 120m to keep SRMs relevant. And MRMs should get a buff to make them better at hitting at medium range (more velocity, less volley delay, higher tube count, etc... just not less spread).

Edited by Khobai, 22 July 2017 - 03:06 PM.