201 replies to this topic

[Asterios]

sceii, on 20 July 2017 - 03:06 AM, said:

SRM does 48 maximum damge per alpha. (srm have 3 to 1 heat efficiency)
ATM does 72 maximum damage per alpha. (atm have up to 4 to 1 heat efficiency)

48 damage for 10 tons and 8 slots A-SRMs launchers
72 damage for 21 tons and 15 slots ATMs launchers

Edited by Asterios, 20 July 2017 - 03:26 AM.

[Vesper11]

sceii, on 20 July 2017 - 03:06 AM, said:

Cherrypicking.

Lemme try it too.
Having high arc can help you deliver damage without LOS that you need with ATM.
Never brawl many enemies at once though more missiles can help deal with AMS.
At 200+ meters spread and weight is worse than cSRMa.
SSRM has specific role, do not confuse with ATMs.
At sub 450 range spread, weight and damage is inferior to LRMa.
SRMa has 1.33-1.2 DPS per ton (more effective too due to speed) (SRM has 2.35-3.0 heat efficiency) (less ammo efficiency though)
ATM has 1.2-1.03 DPS per ton at gimmick range, 0.8-0.69 at medium range (ATM has 2.4-2.67 heat efficiency)
LRMa has 0.71-0.78(LRM15a) (more effective due to arc and AMS resistance) DPS per ton (LRM has 2.08-3.33 heat efficiency).
My point is simple stop posting ********.

Edited by Vesper11, 20 July 2017 - 03:31 AM.

[ScreamingSkull]

I think they're going to get nerfed honestly... They belong on mechs with 80kph or more that can stay inside short range without getting rushed into the minimum. Very easy to rack up 600-1k damage with them.

[Lux Monolithic]

Brain Cancer, on 19 July 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

LRMs work wonderfully with ATMs, including giving AMS something much more numerous to chew on at range.

And the mixed velocity confuse the heck out of people who think they're poking safely only to find they got a dozen ATMs to the torso because of the fast, flat shot or duck the ATMs only to find out the LRMs hit them anyway, all to a constant "INCOMING MISSILES".

That it's fooled more than one guy to come out and trade with the lurmboat only to eat 45 damage to the chest at short range has killed more than one opponent who'd have gutted me without them.

Sorry I was drunk and ignorant. I'll take your word for it.

[Lux Monolithic]

The min range doesn't bother me at all... they are very devastating weapons.

[Mcgral18]

Too annoying, as with most min range weapon systems


I'd rather just not take a missile, and have consistent results

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

And it's the opposite with ATMs in MWO.
You're stuck between 120-270m range, below that they don't do anything, above they are inferior to LRMs and way above they are simply useless.

It's a linear drop from 3->2 270m-320m, so you're actually doing more out to 320, and that's assuming zero range nodes (which extend everything but the min range).

Range boosts are a real boost for ATMs.

Quote

Sorry I was drunk and ignorant. I'll take your word for it.

No harm taken.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 20 July 2017 - 10:35 AM.

[Rusharn]

Playing more with the ATM's, I am finding that their performance seems to do best against heavies, assaults and slow mediums without AMS cover. Any AMS with overload still drastically reduces damage, and your ability to keep distance is often not dependent on your skill but dependent on the composition of the enemy and the support of your team. You cannot run off on your own, and even as secondary weapons they take up so many slots and tonnage that when someone closes within 120m it is always a painful loss of fire power, especially when you consider that if you had LRM's you could still fire for some damage. They also seem to perform poorly on maps that encourage brawling, such as Forest Colony, HPG, Crimson Straight, and River City where cover can allow the enemy to easily close within the 120m. The last thing is that ATM users will not hold their ground against a push. They have to keep targets outside of that 120m range and I have been in a few matches where we surrendered a good position, when assaults with ATM's fell back during a push and it resulted in a loss.

Right now the ATM's are unreliable. What I find to be truly sad is that often when I have ATM's I wish they were LRMs as the LRMs have greater tactical flexibility, being able to brute force through LAMS and AMS, having high arc for indirect fire and in one match being able to do any damage at less that 120m. The biggest thing holding them back is that minimum range as that is constantly reducing your tactical options forcing you to stay back if the enemy holds their ground or forcing you to fall back if you get pressed.

[Naluca]

Vanguard319, on 19 July 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

If you're using ATMs without a backup weapon to fill the minimum range, then you deserve to be killed when someone inevitably closes with you, stick some hvy sm lasers or even micro lasers on your build.

Of course I had back up lasers but against the Phoenix Hawk's hvy machine guns it was able to strip off all my lasers, and I couldn't break away into the 120m range. This had been constantly happening, the faster mechs know to pull in close or move away if they see ATM's. Only sluggish assaults seem to be vulnerable to the full damage punch of the ATM's. Yeah I have been getting decent damage, but I have to fight for every point harder than any other mech even over my IS lrm mechs. That Mininum range is really hard to deal with and is the real Achilles heel of the weapon system.

[Willard Phule]

For what it's worth, I've got a love/hate relationship with them.

First off, I really like the lowered trajectory. I kinda wish that's what LRMs had, but still. You can make a lot of things happen with that trajectory that you can't with LRMs. I also like the variable damage....however, I still think it's a poor cop-out from having the swappable ammo that they're supposed to have. Not whining, but once again the Clan's "superior technology" is undercut by PGI's inability or unwillingness to tackle that particular problem. If they had been, then the LBX advantage would have made a significant difference, assuming a "solid slug" is just that and not a burst like the UACs.

Downsides are that they are extremely hot, even chainfired. And AMS simply makes them useless. It only takes a couple to wipe out a group of ATM3s or 6s. Three of them, like on a Kit Fox, will nullify ATM 24. Only way I can see them equalizing the AMS issue is to either modify how AMS operates or to give ATMs a speed buff. As long as you are allowed to cover teammates with AMS, the only adjustment that will effect anything is range. With that trajectory, a speed buff will make a difference with the ATMs, possibly making them far more useful than LRMs.

[Pariah Devalis]

Willard Phule, on 20 July 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

For what it's worth, I've got a love/hate relationship with them.

First off, I really like the lowered trajectory. I kinda wish that's what LRMs had, but still. You can make a lot of things happen with that trajectory that you can't with LRMs. I also like the variable damage....however, I still think it's a poor cop-out from having the swappable ammo that they're supposed to have. Not whining, but once again the Clan's "superior technology" is undercut by PGI's inability or unwillingness to tackle that particular problem. If they had been, then the LBX advantage would have made a significant difference, assuming a "solid slug" is just that and not a burst like the UACs.

Downsides are that they are extremely hot, even chainfired. And AMS simply makes them useless. It only takes a couple to wipe out a group of ATM3s or 6s. Three of them, like on a Kit Fox, will nullify ATM 24. Only way I can see them equalizing the AMS issue is to either modify how AMS operates or to give ATMs a speed buff. As long as you are allowed to cover teammates with AMS, the only adjustment that will effect anything is range. With that trajectory, a speed buff will make a difference with the ATMs, possibly making them far more useful than LRMs.

I'd like to see LRM buffed to 250 or 300 speed, and ATM to 350, personally. Somewhere between LRM and SRM speeds, given how few missiles are launched (and how critical each missile is). I find them much better than LRM as far as usability is concerned, but less ... not "effective," but less reliable than SRM. Very much a feast or famine weapon system.

When locks are assured, and you can get in that 120-300 range zone, you can really lay the hurt on someone, and between 300 and 550 or so (with a 10% range boost via tree) they are still decent to use from a damage per ton standpoint. If it wasn't for how ludicrously vicious AMS is against them, that is. Firing an ATM beyond around 270 meters, AMS just gobble them up, which is a real shame.

Still, they're very nice to have on mechs like the Shadow Cat and Summoner, who often lack large numbers of missile hard points, but have the crit slots and tonnage to equip a single large ATM. It's the first time that I can recall the concept of "one big gun design" actually working in MWO.

Aside from the velocity issue, I still think a HARD 120 minimum is overkill. However, a damage drop like in Clan LRM at 120 meters and in would be fine. A soft minimum, that is. Hard minimums are never fun. Not in ATM, not in IS PPC, and not in LRMs - though it does allow a degree of counterplay. However, given the effect of stacked ECM, there's already quite a bit of counterplay to ATM.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 July 2017 - 04:58 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 July 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

I'd like to see LRM buffed to 250 or 300 speed, and ATM to 350, personally. Somewhere between LRM and SRM speeds, given how few missiles are launched (and how critical each missile is). I find them much better than LRM as far as usability is concerned, but less ... not "effective," but less reliable than SRM. Very much a feast or famine weapon system.

When locks are assured, and you can get in that 120-300 range zone, you can really lay the hurt on someone, and between 300 and 550 or so (with a 10% range boost via tree) they are still decent to use from a damage per ton standpoint. If it wasn't for how ludicrously vicious AMS is against them, that is. Firing an ATM beyond around 270 meters, AMS just gobble them up, which is a real shame.

Still, they're very nice to have on mechs like the Shadow Cat and Summoner, who often lack large numbers of missile hard points, but have the crit slots and tonnage to equip a single large ATM. It's the first time that I can recall the concept of "one big gun design" actually working in MWO.

Aside from the velocity issue, I still think a HARD 120 minimum is overkill. However, a damage drop like in Clan LRM at 120 meters and in would be fine. A soft minimum, that is. Hard minimums are never fun. Not in ATM, not in IS PPC, and not in LRMs - though it does allow a degree of counterplay. However, given the effect of stacked ECM, there's already quite a bit of counterplay to ATM.

Especially with a jumper. And, they need to do something about the reload speed on the smaller launchers. I tried six ATM3s on a Mad Dog and it's actually pretty good, but waiting for the reload on chainfire is rough considering you can normally keep up a continuous flow with LRM5As. That and they need to increase the health of the missile...it's bigger than an SRM, it should take more AMS ammo to kill it. One would think.

And that minimum range thing, I believe, comes from a specific form of ammo the ATMs use, if I remember TT rules correctly. That's why they have swappable ammo, for inside that range. I could be wrong, it's been a while. Giving us a "placeholder" sort of thing AND adding a minimum range to it seems a bit excessive. Either code it so it works like it's supposed to or get rid of the minimum range.

Edited by Willard Phule, 20 July 2017 - 05:02 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Willard Phule, on 20 July 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Especially with a jumper. And, they need to do something about the reload speed on the smaller launchers. I tried six ATM3s on a Mad Dog and it's actually pretty good, but waiting for the reload on chainfire is rough considering you can normally keep up a continuous flow with LRM5As. That and they need to increase the health of the missile...it's bigger than an SRM, it should take more AMS ammo to kill it. One would think.

And that minimum range thing, I believe, comes from a specific form of ammo the ATMs use, if I remember TT rules correctly. That's why they have swappable ammo, for inside that range. I could be wrong, it's been a while. Giving us a "placeholder" sort of thing AND adding a minimum range to it seems a bit excessive. Either code it so it works like it's supposed to or get rid of the minimum range.

Standard and ER rounds had a minimum range, but HE did not. We got a compromise weapon due to combined ammo. Frankly, I rather dump the "ER" ammo type entirely. From what I hear, it was as equally pointless in tabletop as it is in MWO. The damage per ton absolutely tanked, so people just avoided loading ER, and would either load extra standard or HE instead.

[Brain Cancer]

Willard Phule, on 20 July 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Especially with a jumper. And, they need to do something about the reload speed on the smaller launchers. I tried six ATM3s on a Mad Dog and it's actually pretty good, but waiting for the reload on chainfire is rough considering you can normally keep up a continuous flow with LRM5As. That and they need to increase the health of the missile...it's bigger than an SRM, it should take more AMS ammo to kill it. One would think.

One might. Of course, if velocity goes up, AMS vulnerability goes down. It is known.

Quote

And that minimum range thing, I believe, comes from a specific form of ammo the ATMs use, if I remember TT rules correctly. That's why they have swappable ammo, for inside that range. I could be wrong, it's been a while. Giving us a "placeholder" sort of thing AND adding a minimum range to it seems a bit excessive. Either code it so it works like it's supposed to or get rid of the minimum range.

Actually, only HE (the 3-point ammo) gets no min range. Standard and ER get that 120m minimum, though it's accuracy loss, not a deadzone.

[Willard Phule]

Brain Cancer, on 20 July 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

Actually, only HE (the 3-point ammo) gets no min range. Standard and ER get that 120m minimum, though it's accuracy loss, not a deadzone.

Which could be done with the reduction in damage thing under 120 like they did with CLRMs. One of the things that made CLRMs so brutal in TT was that they do 1 point per missile, regardless of range. A CLRM20 up close is a nasty thing.

[Brain Cancer]

Oh, I agree. That's the reason that in TT, a lot of Clan 'Mechs literally can mount nothing but LRMs and not only get away with it, but do well.

I'm still for ATMs just getting the same linear 50m stepdowns starting at 120m that they use at their medium and long range points. 120-70 is 3->2, 70-20 is 2->1, and you could even keep the same for 20->0 (meaning missiles would do fractional damage inside 20m).

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 July 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

Everyone's complaining about ATMs being disappointing but their legit my favorite missile system in the game right now.

I like the concept of them. They're potentially a lot of fun. However 1 damage inside 120m but top damage reduced to 2.7 would make them actually useful.

They're QP fun. So are LBX + MG builds. So is my 6 HMG, 2xLPL, 2xSRM6A King Crab. I hate to see a complete weapon system wasted on a giggle toy, again.

[Brain Cancer]

No weapon that deals any reasonable amount of spread is going to be top tier anything, but ATMs are useful. The number of times I've caught pilots thinking "it's just LRMs" at this point is astonishing and usually results in spraying the offending opponent with the expected 30 or so LRMs...and another 40-60 damage on top of it from the now ATM 12+9 I've got mounted backing them up. This frequently cripples or kills the target. I had Sean Lang in a game last night come around a corner on Caustic to take out what he thought was the team lurmboat.

One 21-missile salute later, he was running for his life minus an arm along with most of his Quickdraw's torso. He outran me, but the Catapult on the other side of the hill was an easy KMDD for much the same reasons as he ran out of cover and got one-shotted by the rest of the team post-ATM/LRM reaming.

They're good with a lock, but fast enough that I can reliably dumbfire them in the 3-damage zone (which for me is actually 121-300, yay range nodes) and nail the target like I was firing SRMs. You can "bend" them like LRMs to get them over/around blocking terrain if locked, though they'll never have the ease of firing LRMs do in that regard.

If LRMs were peanut butter, ATMs are the chocolate to go with them, sweet on their own, but a great combo. I don't think AMS is going to be a common thing at the top even now, so their worst nemesis is unlikely. Yeah, you can press in on one, but if you're already in the ideal missile boat position (right by/behind your brawlers), your deadzone is covered to an extent and you'll get at least one good lick in even if you had to dumbfire to get it. At least, that's been my experience- if I'm in a group and can't fire ATMs, the group is already collapsed and we lost 30 seconds ago.

Nothing will dethrone direct fire, pinpoint damage weaponry from the top tier of gear, but ATMs actually bring another weapon up to the middle of the pack and they're a great tool for the Clanner with missiles on their mind.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 21 July 2017 - 11:00 AM.

[1453 R]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 July 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

...
Still, they're very nice to have on mechs like the Shadow Cat and Summoner, who often lack large numbers of missile hard points, but have the crit slots and tonnage to equip a single large ATM. It's the first time that I can recall the concept of "one big gun design" actually working in MWO.
...

This is the crux of it, methinks. I've been experimenting a lot with ATMs (well, "a lot") lately, what with folks badgering me to get back into the game again - and with heavy lasers...not generally being worth experimenting with, sadly - and ATMs are proving to be a big boon to 'Mechs with limited hardpoints. This is the only missile system in the entire game where one single launcher is not a sad joke, and where two or three is actually a respectable main armament. SRMs need at least 4 even on most lights, LRMs...are LRMs...rocket launchers are a bad-joke gimmick even in the original TT canon, and I'll admit I haven't screwed with MRMs yet but still.

A single ATM-12 is a 36-damage hit inside its sweet-spot band, and still a relatively respectable 24-damage hit inside 500m if you have range nodes (and if you're ATM-ing why don't you have range nodes?). That's not bad. The DPS is kinda stank because of the long cycle time on the launchers, but it's not really a whole lot worse than any other single heavy weapon. The flattened trajectory and improved speed is very satisfying, to boot.

The minimum is irritating, but irritating in a video-game sense that almost sorta makes sense in practice? Not at all lore-wise, of course, but all these calls of "get rid of the minimum range but make HE-range ATMs super low damage!" kinda make my face hurt from frowning so much. This is the one friggin' weapon we have on the Clan side that can be a single-gun help. The whole " 2.1 / 2.0 / 1.9" thing just sucks and defeats the purpose of the weapon.

Is ER ammo kinda butt now? Yes, of course it is. It's never going to be 'optimal' to fire ER ATM loads. ER ATM loads exist for heckling a target, chasing wounded victims trying to escape, or otherwise hindering the enemy. Anyone with ATMs will always want to close to the HE range band to get maximum bang for their missile tonnage. This is an irrefutable fact of the weapon system - no matter what damage values you assign to it, the HE rounds will always be what smart players want to be firing, and the ER rounds will always be something to use sparingly at best.

The current iteration rewards you very highly for managing your ranges and delivering the pain, and the trajectory/speed makes it fun to do. The weapons are bulky as hell and weigh a ton compared to normal Clan warhead-spewers, and they're horribly vulnerable to AMS; they need to be able to hit hard enough to justify their weight and heft.

2.4 is not hard enough. And bumping ER loads up to 1.6 is not actually any benefit at all when you've gutted the damage potential of the HE range band in order to do it. Even if you really do go to 2.1 / 2.0 / 1.9, then HE loads will still be objectively the best loads you can fire if possible and ER loads will be best used sparingly, if at all, because any ER warhead you fire is not an HE warhead.

They'll just also be kinda useless in general compared to the old boring SRM/LRM options, and no longer worth their weight or useful as a One-Big-Gun option for hardpoint-starved 'Mechs.

[Willard Phule]

1453 R, on 21 July 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

This is the crux of it, methinks. I've been experimenting a lot with ATMs (well, "a lot") lately, what with folks badgering me to get back into the game again - and with heavy lasers...not generally being worth experimenting with, sadly - and ATMs are proving to be a big boon to 'Mechs with limited hardpoints. This is the only missile system in the entire game where one single launcher is not a sad joke, and where two or three is actually a respectable main armament. SRMs need at least 4 even on most lights, LRMs...are LRMs...rocket launchers are a bad-joke gimmick even in the original TT canon, and I'll admit I haven't screwed with MRMs yet but still.

A single ATM-12 is a 36-damage hit inside its sweet-spot band, and still a relatively respectable 24-damage hit inside 500m if you have range nodes (and if you're ATM-ing why don't you have range nodes?). That's not bad. The DPS is kinda stank because of the long cycle time on the launchers, but it's not really a whole lot worse than any other single heavy weapon. The flattened trajectory and improved speed is very satisfying, to boot.

The minimum is irritating, but irritating in a video-game sense that almost sorta makes sense in practice? Not at all lore-wise, of course, but all these calls of "get rid of the minimum range but make HE-range ATMs super low damage!" kinda make my face hurt from frowning so much. This is the one friggin' weapon we have on the Clan side that can be a single-gun help. The whole " 2.1 / 2.0 / 1.9" thing just sucks and defeats the purpose of the weapon.

Is ER ammo kinda butt now? Yes, of course it is. It's never going to be 'optimal' to fire ER ATM loads. ER ATM loads exist for heckling a target, chasing wounded victims trying to escape, or otherwise hindering the enemy. Anyone with ATMs will always want to close to the HE range band to get maximum bang for their missile tonnage. This is an irrefutable fact of the weapon system - no matter what damage values you assign to it, the HE rounds will always be what smart players want to be firing, and the ER rounds will always be something to use sparingly at best.

The current iteration rewards you very highly for managing your ranges and delivering the pain, and the trajectory/speed makes it fun to do. The weapons are bulky as hell and weigh a ton compared to normal Clan warhead-spewers, and they're horribly vulnerable to AMS; they need to be able to hit hard enough to justify their weight and heft.

2.4 is not hard enough. And bumping ER loads up to 1.6 is not actually any benefit at all when you've gutted the damage potential of the HE range band in order to do it. Even if you really do go to 2.1 / 2.0 / 1.9, then HE loads will still be objectively the best loads you can fire if possible and ER loads will be best used sparingly, if at all, because any ER warhead you fire is not an HE warhead.

They'll just also be kinda useless in general compared to the old boring SRM/LRM options, and no longer worth their weight or useful as a One-Big-Gun option for hardpoint-starved 'Mechs.

The problem I have with the minimum range is that if you're going to come up with a "compromise" because you simply can't code the weapon the way it was originally intended, like they did with Clan LRMS, then treat it the same way.

Clan LRMs were never supposed to have a minimum range. PGI decided that they would have damage take a dropoff below a certain distance. Why would that faction take a step back technologically and design a weapon with a hard minimum range? And since minimum range is only part of the least used ammunition type, why impose it on the "compromised" ammo that gives you the best of both worlds?

The other issue is how easily AMS takes it down. These are supposed to be larger than LRMs. So large, in fact, that the most you can shove into a launcher is 12. One would think they should be a little harder to shoot down. As it is, not even a cloud of ATM 36 makes it through 3 AMS.

Edited by Willard Phule, 21 July 2017 - 01:25 PM.